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Thread: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

  1. #21

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

    I think the build system is fine the way it is, if it isn't broke, don't fix it.
    Dacurly Dac : Phoenix Fellowship Guild : Chaos Server
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  2. #22

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzael View Post
    Good idea, here is a run-down of experience gains for Fitter school, my base smelting is 900 and base fitting is 1000 (Miner is only level 86 at the moment so skills are all off Fitter school). I picked a tier V resource since I'm at optimal skill level for making the resources and applying the units.

    Creation Craft x 1 Exp per Bar
    Mithril Bar 137 137
    Mithril Construction Sheeting 1044 69.6
    Mithril Construction Jointing 767 38.4

    Application Structure Resources per Unit Bars per Unit Experience Exp per Bar
    Mithril Construction Sheeting T5 Silo 2 30 1995 66.5
    Mithril Construction Jointing T5 Silo 2 40 3735 93.4
    Mithril Construction Sheeting T5 Storehouse 2 30 2672 89.1
    Mithril Construction Jointing T5 Storehouse 2 40 4151 103.8
    Mithril Construction Sheeting Human Clocktower 1 15 6730 448.7
    Mithril Construction Jointing Human Clocktower 1 20 12313 615.7

    This shows us that there is definitely a need to look at the Fitter experience gains because previously reported anomalies still exist, but I don't think it warrants an overhaul to the way construction schools gain experience. I'd wholeheartedly encourage the correction of the anomalies that are apparent with regards to current skill gains, but I still have reservations about the need to overhaul the schools any further.
    There are definitely some weird variations on the EXP... maybe that was something they could address in a revamp. Can anyone post a few t5 lair pieces creation and placement exp, and also add in the exp/bar calculation too? (that's handy)

    My feeling is that the exp (if dev's make the primary skill change) would be equivalent to (or even a bit higher) than the exp currently given for the human clocktower, across the board for all materials in all schools if they went to a primary skill system.

    End result would be faster leveling, as long as you actually built something. I think this point was the main push for the change. Currently someone could level mason without ever having done actual masonry work. Just grind out 300k bricks or whatever and max out mason school. I can see the point for changing it. And they (should) add more exp into the create/place steps than the exp lost in making the bars/bricks, so the net result is faster leveling.

    I like jerko's idea about the old oaks quartermaster, who gives quests for construction mats and rewards silver and a imperial token.

    Having something similar for all the lower tier materials, that gave say half the placement exp plus coin would be a great idea. That way the players would get the increased exp for crafting the construction material, and then some bonus exp for turning them in for the quest, without having to have a structure to apply it to. The way those quests work, a player could drag a cargo disk full of say wood braces, and turn it in over and over getting exp until they empty the disk. So say the quest might call for 5 oak braces, and reward in craft exp, the exp for placing 2 units (4 pieces) plus maybe a little coin. Regardless of what they do with the schools, having these quest options would be great in any event.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

    So a few of you have asked why this change is being considered, and my thought is "Fair enough", so here is the reasoning why.


    It's already been pointed out that the experience given for different structures is different on biped construction. There are some structures which are simply bugged and are (in general) giving far more experience than others for applying the very same resource. This is actually what first caught my attention and made me look into it closer. It didn't seem right to me that simply because some players are "in the know", they would know to make Structure X repeatedly over Structure Y when leveling a particular tier or resource. Simply because no one has bothered to report the bug because the particular bug is beneficial to players doesn't mean that it isn't a bug.


    So note that those structures will be fixed for a future update.


    But then I looked at Construction experience versus Lairshaping experience and noticed a real inconsistency. Lairshapers get more than double the experience for the same skill level when applying resources to their lairs. And it's pretty close to the same for simply crafting the resource, with lairshapers getting one and a half to twice the experience.


    So no, other than a few structures here and there that are bugged, there is nothing "broken" per se about the system unless you consider that there are some real oddities in the system relative to one another. All the documentation actually exists for changing the biped-construction schools over to using the primary skill system, so the work has already been done and calculated. It was just never something that someone had the time and inclination to implement. And as I was working in the crafting system already on other projects, I thought I'd take a look. :)



  4. #24

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

    Make a constant invasion or something that destroys an outpost or something and I'd support this. Need something to work on. I miss the old giant crafting days.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

    Thanks for the insight Velea, really helps to understand why this has come up.

    I think we're all fairly clear that under this proposal biped construction schools would no longer obtain experience from making base resources such as metal bars or fabric spools. Would the biped construction schools still raise skills such as metalworking and clothworking, or would these skills and associated experience gain from these skills also be removed?

    Enchanter is definitely one school that has been more functional than other construction schools, my own perception of it has been a school that deals in arcane crafting, and its contribution to construction efforts is more of a secondary purpose rather than its primary raison d'être. Maybe if biped construction schools are revisited then Enchanter can be handled separately since it has more purpose than the other construction schools.

    To be honest I don't see much difference overall if the biped construction schools remain as-is, or if they're changed to use the primary skill system used by the lairshaper school. The majority of my construction levels came from working on my plot through 3 iterations over the last few months, and it was Carpenter that lagged behind the others due to less carpentry work overall on the plots. While it is possible to level a construction school entirely from processing resources it still leaves the question of what to do with those resources at the end, so I'd hope that most players would prefer to level construction the intended way.

    If there is going to be an overhaul to construction schools then I'd welcome the changes if accompanied by content that would make the construction school changes seem like a small part of a bigger offering. Remember when we were all excited about the repurposing of lair technology - What's the word on Dryad and Dwarven housing? ;) Or furniture... We're allowed to wish!

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Velea View Post

    But then I looked at Construction experience versus Lairshaping experience and noticed a real inconsistency. Lairshapers get more than double the experience for the same skill level when applying resources to their lairs. And it's pretty close to the same for simply crafting the resource, with lairshapers getting one and a half to twice the experience.

    Despite that, I find triple more tedious building a lair than building a plot. There are a number of "out of band" factors that imo work as an equalizer between those two different ways to approach building.
    Last edited by Velea; September 22nd, 2014 at 12:04 PM. Reason: removed off topic portion of post
    Vahrokh Vain - Ancient dragon level 100 adv 100 craft 34M of untainted, fireworks and other crap free hoard.
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  7. #27
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahrokh View Post
    Despite that, I find triple more tedious building a lair than building a plot. There are a number of "out of band" factors that imo work as an equalizer between those two different ways to approach building.
    Amen. Having done heaps of biped construction and Dragon Lairshaping to 100 - exp comparisons are apples and oranges - such comparison numerically is pure folly.


    Knossos
    Last edited by Velea; September 22nd, 2014 at 12:05 PM. Reason: removed off topic portion of post

  8. #28

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

    If we're concerned about the lack of structures for this change, I humbly ask for the re-invention of community building projects. Ones that give a benefit; but are periodically "damaged" by enemy forces (give the game a real war feel). Back when the game came out, these projects (like opening up new areas for plots) were awesome. We had these artifacts that never did anything, but I think they were intended to.

    You could tier them.

    I've always thought you could also implement infinite resource structures that can be added to a plot for leveling purposes.

    I know you have finite resources, but anything that can get the community working together seems to be a huge win, IMO.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

    I agree with others who want more community build projects. I always felt that applying braces or sheets or other items to a building gave less XP than it should because the builder has not only made the piece, he's transported it to the building site.
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  10. #30

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

    ya and then after all that hard work. People getting together, helping one another, comradery, go ahead and let the Withered Aegis come in and burn it down again hehehe.

    Maybe even let them come into known towns every once in a while and cause a little damage, say to a portal? or maybe a town vault?
    Mayhem at it's best~!
    -Kor

  11. #31

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

    First I don't really think we need to change anything with the crafting system, it works pretty good the way it is. Everything seems to work together nicely.

    I like the fact that Fitter gets XP from smelting and making sheeting and applying, 3 way xp. If you feel that the applying section should be boosted I wouldn't have a problem with that.

    I can see every time you want to smelt changing to Miner to be very cumbersome. Or if you want to Lumber boards changing to Gatherer the same.

    Yes Bi-Ped crafting is less xp that Dragon crafting but that's what I like about it. It's a challenge. You level DCRA and you get a ton of skills just by deconning scales to 100. 1 resource needed and just mindlessly leveling it for a number of different skills. Maybe that should be looked at to make it more diversified.

    If this change was implemented and then I suppose I would just have to change to miner/gather during that process so it would be nice to have a way to change to that school easier. Like an NPC you could buy to place in your vault on plot or something. You greet them and pick the class you want. Sort of like there is on the spiral. That would be helpful if this change took place.

    Burning of towns more to keep the application plentiful for everyone is fully supported by me as well. That way there is always something to apply to. It could just be additional crafting stations in the field and not towns to speak of and then they just keep breaking from invasions of the withered aegis.

    -Kor

  12. #32

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

    Typically you go Blacksmith to 100 first to gain opt on T4 or possibly T5 with gear and jewelry. Then you can smelt bars T4,T5 for fitter to bring it up from level 1. This is what is great about the crafting system in Istaria. Lot's of schools tie each other together. With this new Proposal let's say you take Blacksmith to 100, then you want to level fitter...can't smelt since you get no XP. So you have to start with level 1 Bronze until you can do Iron and work your way up? It basically tears apart the one part of the crafting system in this game that makes it so unique and good.

    Weaver was easy to level too. Take outfitter up to 70 or so with smelting plat bars then your clothworking is 700, with an expert shop you can grind backpack pouches. But now you would have to do weaving work from T1 as well? I could go on but why, I really don't like this proposal it stands against everything I believe.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

    I wouldn't object to the change in xp gain, if more community projects are put in for builders to work on. It's not so bad for me personally, because I have my own plot to work on, but I feel for the crafters without one.
    Obsessed crafter of Chaos.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

    I already have all construction schools so not a biggy for me, but I know i would be against it if i did effect me
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  15. #35

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

    it sounds foolish to me, I cannot think of any builder who would be happy with just getting experience for making only the final product and applying it to a structure. a skill is a skill, what happens to lumbering experience for making tools that are needed and often used to level a school. Lillyjo, chao' server

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

    I'm not sure its a good idea like other people mentioned some people cannot afford or able to get a plot need to factor in all scenarios.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

    I'm not in favor of this proposed change. I especially don't like the justification for the change being a comparison between bi-ped and dragon schools being the basis of the change. There is just too great a risk of unintended consequences when comparing a multi-school system (bi-ped construction) versus a single school system (dragon construction).

    Right now I like having the choice of switching between miner/gatherer and a construction school or just staying in the construction school while harvesting resources and creating building parts. There are times I want to take advantage of this choice when I want to emphasize leveling miner/gatherer. Then there are times I don't (like when building for coin) and wish to have all the exp applied to the construction school. Please don't limit my choices in this regard.

    That said, if you want to better equalize the exp gain for bi-peds in comparison with dragons, then, 1) introduce more community construction projects, AND, 2) reintroduce exp/coin quests with the construction trainers like the old days.

    The last thing I want to see is a move towards a dragon-like single construction school system for bi-peds. Bi-ped lore just won't support it, if you get my drift. Bi-peds are naturally multi-discipline creatures if given the choice.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

    The building schools are fine as they are now. Add some more Enchanter and Weaver stuff to the buildings - give us some new structures to build (a larger variaty racial houses) - and we are happy.
    Terao (Gnome, Grand Master Crafter, Order [Unity])|Draigourn (Ancient, Master Lairshaper, Lunus, Order)|Echentrial (Ancient, Lunus, Order)

  19. #39

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Terao View Post
    The building schools are fine as they are now. Add some more Enchanter and Weaver stuff to the buildings - give us some new structures to build (a larger variaty racial houses) - and we are happy.
    *agrees* I particularly appreciate being able to build off skills already acquired through other classes, but also like the current level of class-only skills and the xp they give.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

    Not really sure why we drudged up a thread that was 2 months old but, I still don't think the crafting experience gained as it is today needs to be looked at. I guess that's why I worked so fast to finish all of them, TWICE. No longer do I need any experience but, that doesn't mean I want others to suffer the change.

    I'll say this, Istaria is hands down the best crafting system in the world of MMO's and for that reason alone, why would you even think about changing it? The only changes I've seen to this game as far as craft is concerned has been to make it easier ie; Lowering opt on T6 so now people want T7, removing the alloys in the game so now it only takes one resource to make building materials. If people think it is too hard there are other games they can flourish too, but from what I've seen once you learn the system in this game you tend to love it.
    -Kor

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