A question of balance

[Donairian]

Lately I have been thinking about the question of PVP in Istaria, I understand it is far from being the most important aspect of the game considering the only areas where a player can truly experience it is either at the isles of battle or in Tazoon arena. Yet I am still curious about how balance between classes and for that matter dragons against Naka sits currently, its like I have a set of conflicting sources one from the devs of this game and the other from the player base, I normally would refrain from taking the initiative like this I am normally a more reclusive sort of person who prefers my own company but I really feel like I need answers.

On the one hand a certain few people who I will not be naming unless otherwise requested have been saying that dragons are under powered and that at max level an ancient would unequivocally be inferior to a similarly leveled Naka race who would have a slew of different classes he or she can utilize to maximum effect against the dragon. one of the sources in particular have said that the only real advantage to playing a dragon was flight stating that the only otherwise advantage was a matter of a few hundred extra hit points.

On the other hand though in one of the more recent updates a cool down was added to the dragon breath attacks which meant if you used one such attack you would place a 15 second cool down on all breath attacks available to you. Surely such an update would not be placed on an already under powered class unless it wasn't really under powered.

It confuses me the opinions of the people who complain against those of the the devs that implemented this update, short of getting some friends together and conducting my own research into potential balancing issues I really do not understand the whole picture regarding this debate. Hopefully there is no issue and I am just worrying myself over the possibility that there is one.

[Cilok]

Well, as I've never been to the PvP areas and my high-level experience is only with a dragon, I can't comment on those. What I will comment on though is that devs have already said in the next patch the dragon breath attacks will be unlinked.

I will add that it might not be a good idea to talk about dragon/biped balance as dragons are in a state of change after the recent Gold Rage changes, so any previous views no longer apply, and figuring things out now will only become invalid as more changes are made to dragons.

[Donairian]

Ok, then I probably would have to contain my curiosity until when the updates start to settle down just a little.

What were the gold rage changes by the way? I didn't know that ability had been updated and after using it for these last few months haven't really noticed any noticeable change at least as far as I can tell. I am granted the sort of player that mashes whatever attack ability I have available so therefore have little time to check the numbers I am doing but is it good or bad?

[meepsa]

Ok, then I probably would have to contain my curiosity until when the updates start to settle down just a little.

What were the gold rage changes by the way? I didn't know that ability had been updated and after using it for these last few months haven't really noticed any noticeable change at least as far as I can tell. I am granted the sort of player that mashes whatever attack ability I have available so therefore have little time to check the numbers I am doing but is it good or bad?

Gold rage was changed to:
guaranteed hits on all attacks.
1:00 cooldown
increased hoard cost (around 3K at VII)

[Terao]

and -20% damage (something like that)

[LOVWYRM]

^feels like ter- but not in patch notes^^^

-20 percent is on flame burst:-(((

[meepsa]

^feels like ter- but not in patch notes^^^

-20 percent is on flame burst:-(((

but also -50% recycle (cooldown for those who won't accept istaria lingo)

[Vahrokh]

On the one hand a certain few people who I will not be naming unless otherwise requested have been saying that dragons are under powered and that at max level an ancient would unequivocally be inferior to a similarly leveled Naka race who would have a slew of different classes he or she can utilize to maximum effect against the dragon. one of the sources in particular have said that the only real advantage to playing a dragon was flight stating that the only otherwise advantage was a matter of a few hundred extra hit points.

First of all, let me say that I love controlled PvP in games. Controlled as in: no super-high level large gank squads roaming the maps 24/7 to gank and then perma-camp newbies and similar. Instead, have specific areas where to do it.

Said this, Istaria is basically a non PvP game, classes balance just does not happen because of PvP performance.

Plus, there's the never truly abated "dragons vs bipeds" 12 years old fight, the only, real, epic, large (PvP!) and long lasting war.

Why is that?

The story is far too long to tell, but it basically involves an hard math equation, valid for most games: "the more the effort, the more the reward".

On one side (bipeds), they claim rightful bipeds superiority because they earned their godlike powers by grinding a dozen of classes to level 100. They do have a point.

On the other side, dragons, claim that every race has to be able and win the game challenges (i.e. mobs, bosses...), therefore dragons too have to be powerful. This especially applies to group play, where components should earn their spot, not be just a "presence" that takes the reward without (being able to) contribute in a tangible way.


Now, as you can see, this is a stalemate that lasts since the early game. With a truly "Pontius Pilate" move, the old developers made dragons "decently powerful" while still leaving them with the short end of the stick.
They made both "factions" unhappy: bipeds see dragons as not deserving of being equivalent to a (little) multiclassed biped, with a lot of diverse abilities just given them on a silver platter, for no effort. Dragons feel they should be powerful, after all they are dragons!


There's only one solution to the "hard math equation" shown above: make dragons able to earn their own "super powerful" status by being able to grind as much as the other races.

But this required vision, work and effort, something the old developers did not want to invest into.

Amon looks like he wants to do changes to all of this.

I sincerely hope he'll bring us a new game balance, one where we (dragons) can earn our powers and nobody shall have a say against it any more.

[Spyrioyo]

I agree also dragons should be unique and special in there own way and not underpowered to bipeds but equal in there own way and bipeds equal in there own way.

[Korchak Strongbone]

From the beginning of my Istarian Birth in 2009 I have seen the battle between Bi-Peds and Dragons. I have since created 3 Dragons and 4 Bi-Peds but, mostly play 2 Peds and a Dragon.
On the Battle field I do not agree that every player needs to be able to kill mobs in an equal way.

PEDS:
My high rating Ped (232) I can with stand many many mobs virtually forever but, it does take a lot of time to take them down. I do not think a dragon should yield the same resistance to such brutal attacks. There are so many facets to playing Peds, some are Healers and can hardly hit anything, yet they are more than essential in a big battle. Peds have berzerkers, warriors for damage scorcers and wizards for stunners and mezzing Hybrids like Druids, but to me there needs to be a huge difference in Dragons and Peds they are not equal and they should never be changed to be.

DRAGONS:
My Ancient can fly down into a field of Golems and 1 hit a level 100 Golem and be done. Dragons are very strong and they should be, the Gold Rage should not be a guaranteed hit IMHO this is ludicrous and goes against every mechanic in any game. There has to be odds/chances to make it fair. I do agree with the timer however, as 15 seconds as it was was also ludicrous. Each attack shouldn't time out others, they were learned, they should be able to be used. Think of Dragons as Higher Damage/Higher Health/Less Resistance. That's where Peds come in to help them.

BALANCE:
In the greatest of battles any player that has been around knows that you need both Dragons and Bi-Peds to take them down, the epics. I have seen epics go down with dragons only or bipeds only yes, but it can be very brutal with many deaths. I contribute this to some mechanics in the game that have been changed to equal out the two.
We need Bi-Peds to help Crowd Control, cast COT V on Dragons, Heal Dragons and the rest of the group, cast Energy V with stun IV on it, cast Thunder Cloud V to stun the big ones while the smaller get taken down. We also need those Big, Amazing, Strong Dragons to work together in the group and teach those bigger mobs a lesson of power and authority.

CONCLUSION:
The rating of the Bi-Ped should give them a very high resistance to many mobs in Istaria but, the hit points of them should be less than a dragon. They should be able to stand and fight with out fear and win in the end especially if they are a 278 player. It just might not be as fast as they may want. The Dragon having only one class should receive more damage than a biped but I think they should have a lot more health, after all look at the shear size of the animal, they are huge. The Dragon wouldn't have all the resistances from learning all the 28 schools that Bi-Ped did but could give high damage to the enemy and make quick work of it.
-Kor

[Tilithia]

Perhaps dragons could get a slightly bigger health boost when they grow (ascend), that makes sense.

[Korchak Strongbone]

Salwirk, Something I have been thinking about was instead of the grow on ascension it would be based on /INFO time IN istaria played. The more hours put into game play the bigger you get, to a cap of course. 1% per day up to adult it would grow then if you ascended it would hit 100%. Although hatchies are so dang cute. ^.^
-Kor

[Vahrokh]

The Dragon having only one class should receive more damage than a biped but I think they should have a lot more health, after all look at the shear size of the animal, they are huge. The Dragon wouldn't have all the resistances from learning all the 28 schools that Bi-Ped did but could give high damage to the enemy and make quick work of it.
-Kor

Here's the dragon vs biped thing in a nutshell: "Dragon having only one class => disadvantages list".

Why can't we choose to finally remove the "having only one class" curse on our race? We did not choose to have "the quick way", it was hardcoded and imposed upon us.

I wish there was somewhere an option to grind a 2nd and a 3rd and so on level 100 XP under my belt.
I'd not even ask for new skills to "pop up", since this would require sensible work on the developers side. I'd be happy to "ding" another 100 and get +5% on maximum health, +3% on this, +2% on that (smaller stats per each level 100).
Or maybe first +100 levels one gets +30% health, 2nd +100 levels one gets +20% damage (only one stats per level 100 but with bigger numbers) and so on.

[Korchak Strongbone]

Technically I have 29 Adventure schools, since I have all 28 Bi-Ped schools and my 1 Dragon Adventure school. I don't think as my Ancient to have a disadvantage to my Bi-Ped though, it's just different. I think that a Dragon should be able to receive tons of damage through loss of HP. I think due to the shear size of the Dragon the Health should be greatly increased say to 6,000hp. That way you could just tank with a dragon and kill and if you had no healers around, you would still survive. Dragons do have heals I know, but they just aren't as strong as say a Druid or Healer.

I think If people started to see what 6,000hp on their dragons did for them, they might relax a bit. Don't allow breaths to time out others not used, and bring back the GR to a non guaranteed hit and increase it a bit leaving the timer the same. Dragons need to do Great Damage and be able to take a great amount of damage.

Of course this is just my opinion on a balance. To me a balance isn't making Dragons and Bi-Peds equal it's learning to work together and understanding their differences and using that to your advantage.
-Kor

[AmonGwareth]

Of course this is just my opinion on a balance. To me a balance isn't making Dragons and Bi-Peds equal it's learning to work together and understanding their differences and using that to your advantage.
-Kor

For the record I am not attempting to balance Dragons against Bipeds. I am simply attempting to make them less of a one button game. To have more to do. To spread the damage out. Increasing health is certainly something to consider.

[hallucin8]

I think Kor's longer post above pretty much sums up my experiences as well, so no point in re-iterating too much.

I don't think boosting dragon's health to 6K is the way to go, although if you play around with Blighted health scales, this isn't too hard to achieve (and buffs of course).

For the record I am not attempting to balance Dragons against Bipeds. I am simply attempting to make them less of a one button game. To have more to do. To spread the damage out. Increasing health is certainly something to consider.

Not trying to derail the convo and I do agree to some extent that GR did need adjustment, but I don't think significantly decreasing it's damage (by way of significantly increasing it's recycle/cooldown) was the best way to go. I accept there are still changes in the works and much discussion, but something I've noticed from playing Destiny is that Devs seem to have a tendency to make large 'nerfs' rather than gentle ones but only make very small increases/buffs. If you wanted to make the dragon less of a one-button kill (commendable intent), I don't think linking abilities was EVER going to help achieve that either (though of course I do also note the linking of breath attacks was reversed, thank heavens!).

Anyway, back to the OP, the comparison of Dragons to Peds is always a messy one. I played a Dryad for some 6 years before I really go stuck into a dragon, and boy did I LOVE IT! The world we play in (or live in depending on how much time you spend in Istaria ), is one shared by two main groups, the Naka and the Dragons; the experiences of each I found are VERY different. It's like two completely different games, set in the one world; or at least it was for me, playing as a support (heavily multiclassed druid) Dryad, compared to the rawr power (hehe) of the flying Dragon!

To put it simply, there is no possible way to balance the two. If you want multiclassing, peds is the only way to go, if you want a hybrid-warrior flyer, Dragons is the only choice. I would support some very simple schools for dragons to help specialise, but the community is quite divided given the Devs have said it's almost impossible to setup without whipping out the current dragon school (for which many of us have invested countless hours, weeks, months or years into).

[Spyrioyo]

I think Kor's longer post above pretty much sums up my experiences as well, so no point in re-iterating too much.

I don't think boosting dragon's health to 6K is the way to go, although if you play around with Blighted health scales, this isn't too hard to achieve (and buffs of course).



Not trying to derail the convo and I do agree to some extent that GR did need adjustment, but I don't think significantly decreasing it's damage (by way of significantly increasing it's recycle/cooldown) was the best way to go. I accept there are still changes in the works and much discussion, but something I've noticed from playing Destiny is that Devs seem to have a tendency to make large 'nerfs' rather than gentle ones but only make very small increases/buffs. If you wanted to make the dragon less of a one-button kill (commendable intent), I don't think linking abilities was EVER going to help achieve that either (though of course I do also note the linking of breath attacks was reversed, thank heavens!).

Anyway, back to the OP, the comparison of Dragons to Peds is always a messy one. I played a Dryad for some 6 years before I really go stuck into a dragon, and boy did I LOVE IT! The world we play in (or live in depending on how much time you spend in Istaria ), is one shared by two main groups, the Naka and the Dragons; the experiences of each I found are VERY different. It's like two completely different games, set in the one world; or at least it was for me, playing as a support (heavily multiclassed druid) Dryad, compared to the rawr power (hehe) of the flying Dragon!

To put it simply, there is no possible way to balance the two. If you want multiclassing, peds is the only way to go, if you want a hybrid-warrior flyer, Dragons is the only choice. I would support some very simple schools for dragons to help specialise, but the community is quite divided given the Devs have said it's almost impossible to setup without whipping out the current dragon school (for which many of us have invested countless hours, weeks, months or years into).

I agree there be more of way of making it that bipeds and Dragon can work together as a team. Instead of division there should be unity. Also you need to respect people's hard work into a character.

[Vahrokh]

I think that a Dragon should be able to receive tons of damage through loss of HP. I think due to the shear size of the Dragon the Health should be greatly increased say to 6,000hp. That way you could just tank with a dragon and kill and if you had no healers around, you would still survive. Dragons do have heals I know, but they just aren't as strong as say a Druid or Healer.
-Kor

I sort of agree about this.

Maybe a more appropriate question could be: "what do I actually expect by playing a dragon vs what do I expect by playing a biped?" (I have my multiclassed biped too ).

Well, for sure the smaller being would be nimble, quick, able to parry attacks, good at weapons fighting, able to play "mind tricks" and basically use a frontal cortex dominated brain. He would be able to forge tools, to easily augment each other...
To be honest we are more or less already there with that.

With a dragon, I'd expect: a true physical (Lunus) / magic (Helian) powerhouse. Flight of course. Tons and tons of health as you also say. Strong armor but not on the back. Slow at turning around / large inertia to counter his strength. Less able to use of "human brain", therefore their spells would be more "instinctive" and less focused (I think the game already does an excellent job at this "flavour").
Basically, that's how I envision a "dragon from the books", that is an extremely different experience, something totally different than a "reskinned biped" (that is, same turning speed, same zero inertia...).

Also, I miss something else: a suitable lifestyle (that applies to bipeds too).
That is: my SSlik is basically identical feeling to my dear friend half giant. Yes SSlik get their (mostly ignored) home town but the whole "stuff", their life sounds flat, not unique.

For dragons it's even more acute: I'd sort of expect a dragon would need to feed (the larger, the bigger the prey needed) and would often be involved in some fairly bloody fights. That, along with hoard, could be a "double component" that could affect a dragon ability to fight. A starved dragon would basically have say a -20% strength debuff whereas a well fed one a +20%.
Maybe different game would provide different buffs. Eat giants? You get +strength. Eat wolves? You get +dexterity.

Am I dreaming and will never see any of those "awesome gaming experience enhancers"? I think so

[Machaeon]

Also, I miss something else: a suitable lifestyle (that applies to bipeds too).
That is: my SSlik is basically identical feeling to my dear friend half giant. Yes SSlik get their (mostly ignored) home town but the whole "stuff", their life sounds flat, not unique.

For dragons it's even more acute: I'd sort of expect a dragon would need to feed (the larger, the bigger the prey needed) and would often be involved in some fairly bloody fights. That, along with hoard, could be a "double component" that could affect a dragon ability to fight. A starved dragon would basically have say a -20% strength debuff whereas a well fed one a +20%.
Maybe different game would provide different buffs. Eat giants? You get +strength. Eat wolves? You get +dexterity.

Lifestyles do exist in the game, they're just not hard coded in. You have to make that up for yourself by choosing which schools to level and concentrate on, by choosing where your character lives, its personality and how it interacts. I see no reason why there should be hard borders on what any biped race can do, if you 'study' hard enough you can excel in any school, regardless of race.

Personally the lack of an eat-to-survive mechanism in the game at all is something I like about Istaria. I don't have to waste any time with something as boring as finding something to eat on a regular basis... unless I have a good number of death points to get rid of. Besides, some of the craftable foods DO give buffs already.
I wouldn't be adverse to something like a 'full and contented' buff being implemented in the game after you eat a full meal (appetizer, side, main, and desert) that adds +(insert tier relevant number here)% base stats. But I definitely do not want to be penalized for not finding food in the game, because when the confectioners go on strike or just don't log in for a few weeks we're up a certain creek without a paddle.

[LOVWYRM]

For the record I am not attempting to balance Dragons against Bipeds. I am simply attempting to make them less of a one button game. To have more to do. To spread the damage out. Increasing health is certainly something to consider.

You succeeded with that Amon. I hate to admit!
Its more fun to play now. Its something kinda new
(and none of my drags ever was a" one-butten drag ")^^. Thank you for that.

Not quite sure about the health thing- my drags never gave attention to that (no tp or health techs) I now- with the new scales- have more health than I need.

I think the last changes did exactly that: Making everything more balanced and challenging.
We all (means bipeds and dragons) have to "give from our blood" to make this work-
We all might suffer from the stun-lock thing (and other)-and drags that cant goldrage
the group through a fight-
but already now- that feels obsolete to me to do so. Bipeds and dragons in group have to find new solutions together.
(and there are solutions- not so hard to find out)
The game has so much to offer and we did not make full use of it.
Now we have to. Not a change to bad in my opinion