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Thread: Desirable Guild Communities

  1. #21

    Default Re: Desirable Guild Communities

    At the very least when you click on the entrance to a lair and it shows you what structures are built, if it showed which level each structure is on, then at least you wouldn't have to run thru searching every single level til you stumble onto one your looking for. If it showed the crystalshaper was on lvl 3 then could skip searching lvl 1 and 2.



  2. #22
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    Default Re: Desirable Guild Communities

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracaena View Post
    What would be really neat is a magic wisp to show you to the exit (*has faint memories of how the magic light paths worked in bazaar in original EverQuest to find what booth you wanted*). Maybe signs or new mural signs we could use to point out main areas of the lair. I say this as the owner of master lair at Serenity (Order), nobody but me roams those corridors.
    Could just give access to the planning screen for non-owners of the lair, but prevent them from doing anything. That's already a map, in a way, and you have a little marker on it and everything. The trick is making it view-only

  3. #23

    Default Re: Desirable Guild Communities

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracaena View Post
    From what I have seen lairs are actually underutilized for the simple reason many people are phobic about going into them, trying to find a particular room and then get back out. Most are freaked by the time they do find, if they find, what room they want and do a panic recall out.

    I have lairs set up for guild storage and nobody dares go in even if the item is on the first floor. If yours is a biped/dragon guild even the dragons in such a guild often opt for a biped plot so they don't get lost. The times I've had guild members go look for things in one of my lairs, the feedback I get is "Don't you ever make me go in there again!".

    I find it disheartening as a long time lair shaper that most will never see my creations. If there was some way to help with navigation within a lair I think that would do wonders. What would be really neat is a magic wisp to show you to the exit (*has faint memories of how the magic light paths worked in bazaar in original EverQuest to find what booth you wanted*). Maybe signs or new mural signs we could use to point out main areas of the lair. I say this as the owner of master lair at Serenity (Order), nobody but me roams those corridors.
    This is completely true but I think it is a separate issue.

    But anything the devs could do to help I am sure would be welcomed. Perhaps when clicking on a lair entrance, a list of rooms appears, you click on one, and then are given a hovering in the air path to follow that leads you there? I think these ideas deserve their own thread.

    I made my lair to be easy to navigate for bipeds. It has only 1 way up or down, which I think helps a lot, and has a loft above the first room for the vault (Chaos - Harmony, first lair NE from pad. Let me know if it's easier).

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Desirable Guild Communities

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracaena View Post
    From what I have seen lairs are actually underutilized for the simple reason many people are phobic about going into them, trying to find a particular room and then get back out. Most are freaked by the time they do find, if they find, what room they want and do a panic recall out.

    I have lairs set up for guild storage and nobody dares go in even if the item is on the first floor. If yours is a biped/dragon guild even the dragons in such a guild often opt for a biped plot so they don't get lost. The times I've had guild members go look for things in one of my lairs, the feedback I get is "Don't you ever make me go in there again!".

    I find it disheartening as a long time lair shaper that most will never see my creations. If there was some way to help with navigation within a lair I think that would do wonders. What would be really neat is a magic wisp to show you to the exit (*has faint memories of how the magic light paths worked in bazaar in original EverQuest to find what booth you wanted*). Maybe signs or new mural signs we could use to point out main areas of the lair. I say this as the owner of master lair at Serenity (Order), nobody but me roams those corridors.
    I mapped one of your lairs!
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  5. #25

    Default Re: Desirable Guild Communities

    A really nice spot for a group of guild lairs or even some single lairs is in the Feladin Woods. There are a lot of little geographical nooks and cranneys that could accommodate a lair entrance (not sure about the xyz under ground). One of the things about lair locations that I never really liked is that when they put them in they did not put any in the Woods. There are some in the surrounding towns and in the Granetfall mountains but none in Feladin. I also think that some of the 3x4 and 5 maybe should be resized or removed. as far back as I remember very few have ever liked the small foot print/deep lair and you are really limited to T1 and 2 builds.

    Another cool place for some guild lairs would be in the desert wall south of Tazoon or some fly access only guild lairs in the cliff walls over the ocean on the Shadowed Coast.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Desirable Guild Communities

    Honestly placing lairs and plots in other interesting places would be cool too. Such as in Feladan (like suggested). I've seen requests for lairs just inside of deadlands or on the outskirts of deadlands (usually for RP and biography purposes). Stormy march is a nice place, as is the yew forest. There's a lot of places I've seen requested that could be utilized to make plots and lairs more desirable. Another gripr I've seen is that people completely avoid small plots and lairs. They just don't get bought. I avoid them at all costs.

    In regards to making /existing/ communities more desirable, what about holding a contest for players to design and upload their ideas with the offline editing that was implemented?

  7. #27

    Default Re: Desirable Guild Communities

    I guess the biggest problem in some guild communitys is their size. I just bought Saritova. It`s not too bad but none of the plots fits a big tavern but the main plot wich i intend to use for other purpose. Maybe fusing one or 2 plots together would already help. A friend of me once said she is looking for 2 things:

    1st Portal and Pad must be close to the plots. She doesn`t want to run much (Wich already throws out some guild communitys since they don`t have a own pad or only a pad and no portal

    2nd The size of the plots needs to be big enought for people to buy them. Let`s be honest nobody loves to buy small plots when you could have a giant plot instead.

    "If being of fire means blind arrogance and the elevation of violence above reason, then let me be of water!"

  8. #28

    Default Re: Desirable Guild Communities

    There have been many discussions about this particular issue on chaos. In every one of those discussions one overriding factor was agreed upon by everyone, and from reading this thread that one item seems to be universal: Size. Yes different people care about different other things to varying degrees, but virtually everyone seems to care about size. This is just as true for lairs as it is for biped plots, as another poster said; there are only 4 really great lairs, and given the number of players who play dragon as their main, of course all the best (read:largest) lairs are already taken.
    One particular discussion I participated in even laid out particular preferences: anything smaller than 75x75 isn't worth our time. The reason is simple, a grand guild house requires this size as a minimum to fit on a plot, and many players want to build one of these because it has the best storage capacity available. People also don't want to be potentially limited on what they can build on their plot, and size is the biggest limiting factor. I have watched many plots in communities that I would consider excellent suddenly go empty because bigger plots in less amazing places suddenly opened up.
    Guild communities are the worst off and it's not hard to see the reason why. Virtually all guild communities are crammed together on a handful of islands, many with nothing at all on them other than communities. The combination of extreme crowding, and nothing worthwhile nearby makes the vast majority of guild communities undesirable to most players. decorations and terrain would do virtually nothing to improve this.

    Now for the specifics:
    -regarding guild communities: I almost hate to say this, but I would advocate actually removing a good number of guild communities completely. There simply aren't enough players, or guilds, to populate them all, and many cannot be improved at all due to terrain issues. removing some of these perpetually unused communities would open up space for resizing plots on the remaining communities, as well as for resources to be put in and more interesting terrain features.

    -dragon communities: It seems most people only care about the really isolated ones. This is probably more a product of lore than anything else, but the majority has bought into it, so it's an issue. The previously mentioned decorative effects (waterfalls, trees, etc) seem to be a big draw, but if you look at those locations, it's also because the biggest lairs are there. Lair sizing Is probably the hardest thing to deal with because terrain ca be problematic, but as I said earlier, size is clearly the most important factor here.

    And yes, lairs are a nightmare to navigate for virtually anyone except the owner. Expect that you will be the only person to ever see it. It doesn't matter how well you think you planned it, or ho pretty and well decorated it is, you can have heavenly choirs singing its praises in every room and fairies handing out cakes and candies, people will still approach it as though it is some kind of evil accursed labyrinth of doom.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Desirable Guild Communities

    I wouldn`t mind at all removing some guild communitys. Maybe even the dragon communitys. Pointing at Garrik`s post. Naka plots are and will ever be the better way of fast crafting. It`s good to have one t6 lair for t6 crafting and maybe a Grand Hall for storage but thats it. My guild owns for example Ker`Tis and i love living there but it doesn`t look like that more than these 2 lairs that are owned now (My lair and the Main lair) will ever be owned. I had some friends asking me to become my neighbours but i had to tell them that its a guild community. So i don`t see any problems in making the dragon communitys all settlements. Believe me the lairs will fill quickly with people who search lairs. Well at least Ker`Tis and Serenity i think. Not sure about the Drakul community.

    "If being of fire means blind arrogance and the elevation of violence above reason, then let me be of water!"

  10. #30

    Default Re: Desirable Guild Communities

    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    ...lairs are a nightmare to navigate for virtually anyone except the owner. Expect that you will be the only person to ever see it. It doesn't matter how well you think you planned it, or ho pretty and well decorated it is, you can have heavenly choirs singing its praises in every room and fairies handing out cakes and candies, people will still approach it as though it is some kind of evil accursed labyrinth of doom.
    Lol, too true.

    I had an idea about lairs that I am not sure I've posted yet. probably deserves its own thread.

    But if the lair opened into a main hall/lairroom as the first chamber, and all the other rooms were only directly attached to the main room, lairs would be immensely easier to navigate. Think of it as a central square-ish room, with smaller cubes attached to it. No other rooms linked in chains, just all linked to the main chamber. Silos could take up the leftover attach points for craft chambers. For this idea to work, lairs would need to be wider than they currently are, by quite a bit. +2 x +2 to existing dimensions at a minimum. So if one or 2 new lairs or halls were made, with more attach points than current lairrooms/halls, they could become the primary chamber whose main function is simple navigation. An open room with walkways and attachpoints, and its own storage like a hall would have. Then we can just attach to it and keep everything simple.

    Dev's would need to rethink lair sizes. The long, skinny (really deep) lairs are really poor. Devs might think "hey X*Y*Z on these is same volume as the others.. so its a fair size..." But really, it isn't. The skinny lairs don't even fit some larger halls and lairs... they become rooms stacked on rooms ever going down... widening those by like +4 x +4 would turn it into a usable lair. (+1 = 24). Perhaps lairs outer edges could be more flexible where possible, to allow them to go wider when there is space to do so (Think the Dralk community lair which is huge). Just widen the lairs by quite a bit, where is can be done, would be a great start.

    More lairs would become desirable.

    Lairs could be then made which were much more navigable.

    Good things.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Desirable Guild Communities

    I agree 100% to Garrick, Pryzm and Guaran..
    YOU told me to play a dragon!

  12. #32

    Default Re: Desirable Guild Communities

    Two big problems with modifications to plots and lairs.

    1) Ownership across shards impacts what plots you can alter in terms of size, location, etc.

    2) Lairs heavily impact the terrain of the world above, to the point at which you can render the 1st level of a lair partially unusable if the terrain changes height very much. This hampers world development, beautification, or even spawns of any sort.
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  13. #33

    Default Re: Desirable Guild Communities

    for number 2,make deeper entrance? (so lairs end up deeper in ground)


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  14. #34

    Default Re: Desirable Guild Communities

    Yeah, in the case of lairs, I was thinking there could be a longer slope made, that is the first item built. Then the main square lair chamber attaches to that, or if needed, a down spiral, then the main chamber.

    The existing structures would all still work and lairs could be better/navigable. But first we would need them widened where possible. I know that there would be some instances that isn't possible, but that doesn't mean we should do it to any.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Desirable Guild Communities

    I know this may bit a bit out of the topic but, if we were to count how many lairs/plots there are, and considering the number of players, why not make everyone be able to get one plot? There are still quite nice or not so "bland" places, but flying over some plots and seeing only empty squares makes one sigh right away.

    Why not make a property holding token of sorts that would be hard to obtain such as ally pets? My idea is that the token would be only 1 per account (character bound if 1 per character) and give it a timer. Lets say, for example you get your token for 2-3 months, this way you will have to be active to keep it up all time. If you don't want your plot anymore, just sell it and get yourself another token. If one would like to have more plots on their account, then get the property holding sub and pay for the extra plot you have. Or if you're a long time sleeper but own your plot, just keep buying the property holding. Either way would be avaiable.

    A big issue with plots is that one has to keep paying each month so it doesn't get "In Sale". Not many players can afford that, and if you want a plot, you must go and think that you will HAVE to keep the property sub up in order to being worth even buying one. Maybe thats one of the reasons the 80% of the istarian plots/lairs are actualy empty. This way the ones that can't afford paying for property holding each month, would be able to keep up their plot by hard work. I'm sure more people would be taking up plots, and they wouldn't be picky as they are now. (Of course, who wouldn't be picky if you have to pay each month for it and you don't like it?)

    This way the payment system wouldn't break, and would split up the players that do play actively and the ones that don't. If you were to have a possibility to freely get yourself a property, you wouldn't be that choosy, there would be more taken plots, the world would be filled up, and the ones that cannot aford play for so long to get it, could just keep buying it by property holding.

    I know many will be against this idea, but heck why not. Nobody would lose.
    Last edited by Shazo; October 1st, 2016 at 03:21 AM.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Desirable Guild Communities

    Quote Originally Posted by Shazo View Post
    I know this may bit a bit out of the topic but, if we were to count how many lairs/plots there are, and considering the number of players, why not make everyone be able to get one plot? There are still quite nice or not so "bland" places, but flying over some plots and seeing only empty squares makes one sigh right away.

    Why not make a property holding token of sorts that would be hard to obtain such as ally pets? My idea is that the token would be only 1 per account (character bound if 1 per character) and give it a timer. Lets say, for example you get your token for 2-3 months, this way you will have to be active to keep it up all time. If you don't want your plot anymore, just sell it and get yourself another token. If one would like to have more plots on their account, then get the property holding sub and pay for the extra plot you have. Or if you're a long time sleeper but own your plot, just keep buying the property holding. Either way would be avaiable.

    A big issue with plots is that one has to keep paying each month so it doesn't get "In Sale". Not many players can afford that, and if you want a plot, you must go and think that you will HAVE to keep the property sub up in order to being worth even buying one. Maybe thats one of the reasons the 80% of the istarian plots/lairs are actualy empty. This way the ones that can't afford paying for property holding each month, would be able to keep up their plot by hard work. I'm sure more people would be taking up plots, and they wouldn't be picky as they are now. (Of course, who wouldn't be picky if you have to pay each month for it and you don't like it?)

    This way the payment system wouldn't break, and would split up the players that do play actively and the ones that don't. If you were to have a possibility to freely get yourself a property, you wouldn't be that choosy, there would be more taken plots, the world would be filled up, and the ones that cannot aford play for so long to get it, could just keep buying it by property holding.

    I know many will be against this idea, but heck why not. Nobody would lose.
    Admission/Disclaimer: I did NOT read the entire thread. I read ONLY this post. My reply is merely my opinion, albeit with the accompanying statement that product design and build are where I've made my living these last 25 years.

    Originally (points to account date on left), we were told that housing was present to encourage community, give players a reason to make the diversity and variety of goods, and to provide the required economics at world, region, and inter-regional areas (sieves and such accordingly, blah blah blah).

    The idea of mandated community to have a place to "live" was never a good idea. Think about it. If you have to live next to [neighbor 001] to have a place to live, there could be a hundred reasons why that's not as much fun as being able to pick your plot based on your personal, highly subjective, often fickle preferences.

    In truth, there only needs to be one reason today ("Because that's what they want and that's what they'll pay for!").

    People expect a lot more for a lot less than they once did and, sadly, while entitlement may not be popular when we're looking at it in others, it remains that it drives the market today, particularly for gaming. I don't like it myself, but I'd be stupid to deny it exists, particularly if I were designing or perhaps redesigning for today's audiences.

    I DO agree that it is time to open up housing to individuals. Perhaps it will be a mess initially, after all, communities take time to form.

    But they DO form. And that would be important for this game going into, say, a kickstarter or something. *wink*

    It would also do a LOT to offset the feeling that material grinding is punitive. If I had the ability to slowly build out my little hole in the ground and it could help me level up my skills to do so, I'd be on that faster than a groupie on a bass player. Why shouldn't players have a wee tiny lair that you can hardly turn around in at first.... that they can slowly build up/out into ... well... whatever they want.

    The details and "what ifs" and fears and concerns are helpful to a company, yes, but only if they consider solutions that would satisfy them. Otherwise, it's just grumping and splashing on someone else's idea without offering anything to compete/counter it... which of course no one wants to do.
    Last edited by Beryl; October 25th, 2016 at 06:52 AM. Reason: sigh... typos.
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