Nothing more than a Question

[Aaelefein]

As the subject says, this is just a question...not a suggestion, demand, push, or whatever you want to call it - BUT a chance to start a dialog.

Took the time to read thru a few threads and as much as I foresee a whole slew of problems that would need to be over come first, least of all 'selling' it to the players - want to pose a question. Many of the threads dealt with the insubstantial number of players on Order and a supposed (Never played there) LOT of players on Chaos (heard plot are rare and difficult to come by)...

Has there been consideration as to ...yes...another and final Shard Merger?

I ask this in all honesty despite (these are negatives):
Some Orderians not wanting to mix with Chaotics
RP vs. non-RP
Laid back, friendly, and cooperative vs. (Not sure exactly how it works on Chaos, but heard some...less than nice things)
and besides the next point, sure others have (and will post) other negatives...

Perhaps the most difficult hurdle to overcome - - - - Lair and Plot Ownership

Now assuming there is a way to fix the plot/lair issue so the Order players whose plots are already owned on Chaos (assuming the idea that Order is folded into Chaos), continue to have a plot/lair as built (could see more islands or land masses built for this or even a 'Mirror' landmass to remedy this problem)...

The potential benefits:
From an economical stand point - perhaps half the overhead - running 1 main shard vs. 2
A larger player-base for all people at more times
Improved Economy
Improved Employment opportunity's (Mostly those in the construction trades I would guess)
Better chances of getting groups together for Epic Hunts, not to mention grouping in general
and I'm sure there are more benefits I'm not thinking of or too tired to think of.


So...there it is...and let the flaming begin...

[Terao]

I'm against any merger if it is not about the cost and VI have to!

The thing with Istaria is, there are more players paying then active playing. Some simply pay to hold their plot(s) and lair(s) which they spent a lot of time to build. Some players have more then just one subscription for multiple plots and/or lairs, multi login, and holding more then 7 characters on their account.

The let's say past ten days we had a maximum of 35 players on Order, only counting those are not hiding in the player search, and in the evenings I would say 20 players in average. It has been a lot lower before christmas that is true. Some players returned lately. There is always something like a seasonal effect on the players quantity that is activly playing.

A group of Order players hunt the epics regularly, everyone is welcome to join in, the last hunt we took one into the group that needed to kill Daknor for a quest, and so we did. Just ask Lovewyrm if you want to join the next hunt.

There is no real economy on Order, except for consumables like potions and food. But it's not a real big of a problem to find someone to craft anything. The Order community is really helpful if someone is in need of something. This community will be blown up and I'm sure a lot of Order players will leave the game if a merger is considered.

[Elteria]

I am absolutely pro on a merge. Thinking of what the shards originally have been designed for (800+ players?), the world is simply too empty for both of the shards nowadays, no matter about what we talk in detail.

However I agree with Terao on some points, especially on the inactive players who still pay for their plots. We will loose them on a merge.

[Arzel Rashemi]

I must agree fully with Terao here. I would not want a merger unless VI could no longer support the game without it. I've gone through one merger already and seen the effects it had on the game and communities from those servers. That one had to happen out of necessity of course, but I think if the servers were to merge again we would see the rest of Order quite likely disappear. It should be a necessity before this happens.

There was a good reason they choose to put the RP servers as Order and the non-rp servers as Chaos in the server merge years ago. Each server has its own community with its own flavour, its own key community plots, its own way of doing things. These are not easily mixed and matched like a bag of dime sweets. By now after ten some years, these are set as they are, but even after the server merge to Order, Chaos, and Blight it took a number of years for all that to mesh properly and it cost no small amount of players from the community who lost plots, friends, and interest in the game during that jumble.

The whole merge was not a cake walk either. It had a number of issues. This is not something I would agree to unless it was absolutely necessary.

[Spyrioyo]

I will have to agree with Terao. I don't think a merge would be a good idea. It would cause numerous problems and even unforeseen problems. Plus people will lose their plots. I for one don't agree. It could cause massive conflict.

[Azath]

Arzel couldn't of said it better.

Unless it is absolutely NEEDED it will not work.

Like he pointed out - we're gonna lose a lot of players.
There are a lot of players who are on certain shards for various reasons. Over the years i've seen order people who got scared off of chaos, and i myself left order because of community issues. With no viable "escape" from either community, people who've had issues would probably just leave.
Issues that cause this have created alot of tension between the shards. Fire and lightning is not a good mix together.

The issue of plots....people have worked hard to create their plots and lairs. What're you gonna do...contact everyone and bid? Clearing all plots out seems like sticking your middle finger up at the players, but it would be the most fair option. I mean afterall, you can't contact all plot owners and what of people paying but not playing? You can't exaclty give plots that are owned on e.g chaos but not on order to whoever owns it on chaos, since there're gonna be people losing their plots/lairs where its owned on both shards and why should someone else keep theirs but not you. mirroring things = creating more land and that's....not really a feasbale option there's a whole tonne of implications to this that i don't feel like listing, but most are obvious eg. maps, do all places need more plots etc.

[Machaeon]

Unless it's ABSOLUTELY necessary, a merge would be more harmful than beneficial in my opinion. It would drive off a good portion of the population due to the various issues a merge would bring... and I can't see a merge bringing in any players can you? I personally wouldn't mind being mixed in with Chaos players and would RP as if nothing had ever happened, the /ignore command is always an option wherever necessary. But the loss of both my plots would be a sore blow even with the novians I would get back. And on top of that I'd lose most (if not all) of my favorite crafting spots due to the plots getting lost there as well. If we'd have to rebuild the world machines (again) as well that would just be another reason to discourage all players from continuing their support of the game.

The issue with plots for me at least isn't so much the high potential of losing my plot locations, it would be losing the work I put in to designing and building them. Hours of planning and weeks-months of work spent in building. Getting back 80% of the materials in novians wouldn't make up for that... heck 100% and I'm still losing out all my work in planning (which is particularly tedious on biped plots with all the decorations) and potentially the location that I had planned around.

[Guaran]

Thing is, if a player wants to play on Chaos, they can already do that. They can even transfer toons over and find a new plot if they had one, bringing novians over with them.

All a merger would really be is a forced move.

The only plus I can think of would be that the transfer cost would be waived if Vitrium moved everyone at once, and you would get 100% of the novians, not 80% from the plot. And true, the population would likely appear more lively.

But losing your plot really sucks. There's likely a lot of order players who keep paying to keep their plots, and if forcibly moved might decide there's no point paying for the sub anymore. There's a small chance that it might inspire a few to actually play, find and build a new plot on chaos... but that's probably a smaller quantity.

As a citizen of Chaos, let me simply welcome anyone over who wishes to do so. Decon your plot and transfer over.

I think perhaps a better suggestion would be to simply lower that shard move cost. Or waive it completely as a 1 time courtesy for anyone who wishes to move. This way it's totally up to the player to chose to move, nothing forced.

[awdz]

While I appreciate the idea of increasing the apparent population, Aaelefein, I am not in favor of combining the shards.

When I come to Istaria, I do not want mention of real world politics, popular culture, and especially do not want lengthy discussions of other games. I want to be focused on the world of Istaria. Would you be happy to pay to see a movie, just to have loud mouths in the audience talking about how other movies compare with it, or how real life is different than what is up on the screen? It is just plain rude of people to do that in the public setting when the expectation is immersion in the fantasy. Most people on Order respect that, thus I am happy there. I do not want to be stuck without the option of the rp shard, nor be forced to only one public chat (roleplay) to avoid rl chatter.

[LOVWYRM]

I have friends on both shards- and btw Awdz- never experienced what you discribe-
but I love Istaria to offer me two different game worlds.
Cause thats in my eyes- Order and Chaos- 2 different worlds, 2 different kind of players- different kinds to play the game and communicate amongst each other. None better than the other.
I used to play dual log Lov on Order and Lovs on Chaos- was much fun.

I stopped that when I really felt alone on Chaos- noone to talk to- noone to play with me-
no silent reproach, no complain- just my experience
but Aelefein
We Order folks have learned not to feel alone- even if only 2 others are online(and we know who that is^^P)
cause Order is kinda family (oh well..black sheep...^^P) - and the private chatrooms- are our living rooms^^

All in all- I would not leave Istaria if here was a merge- though it would break my heart to loose the 2 best plots of Istaria^^
And which chats I join- and with whom I play- is always my choice- good to have.

So whoever feels alone or needs a group to hunt- lets talk together Order people- there is no coterie on Order
as far as I know.

edit: but I share the concerns that others wrote here- lots will leave- no question

[Veruliyam]

*sits on Lovs*

[Aaelefein]

As I said in the OP - it is just a question and am neither Pro or Con...

There is nothing said that I don't agree with in total or part. Said up front that the plot/lair issue is/would be the biggest obstacle. I spent years getting the plot I finally wanted, and with help was finally able to upgrade my Jman shops to all expert level shops - so I'd be the last one to say "Hey, take my plot and force move me to a new shard within nothing in return."

Even if I do not actively play often and certainly not as much as I envisioned...I don't plan on letting my subs go simply because of the plot/lair combination I have right now. I have seen only good things in the past few years and so I'm certain with this and continued progress there will be something to bring me back on perhaps a more regular basis.

It was never the game itself that caused my distancing from Istaria...it was the people or should I say when they left. As some remember, Bane of the Aegis was a large and active guild, once had over 200 members and when I joined the Guild it wasn't uncommon to see 20-30 people on at a time. Things were happening all over the place...people were leveling, crafting, and yes, even doing epic hunts. Personally I'm not a fan of 'Epic' Hunts or those that force grouping...reminds me of school when "HAD" to read a book...

But back to the point...there was a reason to log in...comps were in such need there was routinely a dozen people or more who did that on a regular basis to supply the demand and even then it often wasn't enough. You couldn't walk thru a community where at least one plot didn't have money on it waiting for a construction crafter to go to work. People coming across each other in the middle of a quest, joining up on the fly to reach a goal only to continue going for hours or picking it up later the next day. Hatchies trying to become adults were happening several times a week resulting in group hunts, and to a lesser degree adults to dragons.

So what is to be done to make the shard(s) more populated? I'm not saying I have the answers and it's certainly not a one-size-fit-all scenario either. Adding 'epic' end-game stuff isn't going to do it for me even if there are more people; and if they finally put in a 'must have weapon' which I haven't seen yet (Thought it was a Zealot until I got one and realized it was 2H - I'm a proper/traditional Paladin - that's shield and 1H). Daily quests (that don't have to be grinds) but are worth logging in for? Multi-step achievements* - something that is grindy in the long-run, but still gives awards/titles along the way?

I am sure there are a lot more that I'm not thinking of right now that others can add. I am also aware of and take into consideration that with limited staff limits what can be done and how fast it can be done. I mean I certainly don't berate my paper carrier when he doesn't deliver when the night before there was rain that covered the whole borough (county, parish, etc which in my case is the size of Kentucky)

So...just a question to develop some dialog. And I am happy to see that it did NOT turn into a flame/rage-fest - for that I am pleased.

Aaelefein

*An Example (Too many I could list):
Golem Smasher - Kill 50 golems of very type (Excluding unique's i.e. Surtheim)
Golem Vanquisher - Kill 250 Golems of every type
Golem Juggernaut - Slay 1000 Golems of every type
Name also bequeaths a title and some sort of benefit (esp. final one), whether monetary, trophy, passive skill vs golems

[Aaelefein]

While I appreciate the idea of increasing the apparent population, Aaelefein, I am not in favor of combining the shards.

When I come to Istaria, I do not want mention of real world politics, popular culture, and especially do not want lengthy discussions of other games. I want to be focused on the world of Istaria. Would you be happy to pay to see a movie, just to have loud mouths in the audience talking about how other movies compare with it, or how real life is different than what is up on the screen? It is just plain rude of people to do that in the public setting when the expectation is immersion in the fantasy. Most people on Order respect that, thus I am happy there. I do not want to be stuck without the option of the rp shard, nor be forced to only one public chat (roleplay) to avoid rl chatter.

No, and I agree...this would be another consideration as well as mentioned in my post previous to this one.

It is also something that would have to be maintained on the Order shard - though I would like to see those comments I've seen posted about Order being 'Very strict when it comes to RP" - which is something I have never experienced once since joining order about a year after the merger. I've seen people 'wrist-slapped' (by other players and quite politely) for veering away too much or for an extended period of time, but never for NOT RPing.

The only bad experience I had was just before joining the Bane of the Aegis - when I was kicked out of a guild because I wasn't logged in often enough (apparently 4-6 hours a day wasn't enough - go figure) - tame compared to some of the things I encountered in WoW.

And in the cases I've seen you describe above...when something like that has come up, which usually happens in Market Place when things are slow or a comment is made...you know how conversations tangent...the speakers take it to a private room.

[awdz]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying I encounter rude people on Order, I'm saying that is how being on Chaos would feel to me because of what I look for in the game. It would not be fair to expect those [looking for what Chaos has to offer] to be happy to have to align with the immersion aspect of Order, either. The two shards work well for serving the different gaming environments.

[Guaran]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying I encounter rude people on Order, I'm saying that is how being on Chaos would feel to me because of what I look for in the game. It would not be fair to expect those [looking for what Chaos has to offer] to be happy to have to align with the immersion aspect of Order, either. The two shards work well for serving the different gaming environments.

If ever the shards did combine for whatever reason, I think players could easily work around this by simply making an rp-general chat, and rp-dragon chat, and maybe an rp-marketplace chat. when someone is in the rp channel they would stay in character, the others more lax. We have a General chat and no one uses it. Marketplace is our general chat too (on Chaos). If marketplace needs to be in character on the rp shard, just add that last one as a pre-created channel. Players could join whichever channels they wished, no one would step on anyone elses' toes really.

Of course doing the above would in its own way semi-divide the population, and might undermine the idea of a more populated world...

But yeah, I think offering the separate shards is the best answer to your point.

[Racktor]

I would love a more populated world via server merge, but honestly, I would hate to lose my lair and would only ever look at the option as a last resort. I was honestly wishing for it before Christmas and was tempted to suggest it on the forums, but I waited until double EXP to share my opinion.. and my opinion changed, so. My opinions have really already been stated so I won't say much, but Guaran reminded me of an idea I had:

Like how we have emote, have a chat "channel" for rp. So you type /rp and it puts "[Roleplay] Racktor says, '<text>' " instead of just the "Racktor says". Not only is this clearer for any roleplay that would occur in public between players, but it can also be disabled or moved to another chat tab entirely if RP bothers someone or someone wishes to keep it separated from the general area chat. Would be a checkbox in our chat options just like yell, emote, talk, guild, group, etc is.

[Jstntron]

I would like to add that VI literally just overhauled their essentially original dedicated server hardware for the game, so a shard merge would be a kick in the face if they just bought thousands of dollars worth or more of rack mount servers to run the current shards.

[awdz]

Like how we have emote, have a chat "channel" for rp. So you type /rp and it puts "[Roleplay] Racktor says, '<text>' " instead of just the "Racktor says". Not only is this clearer for any roleplay that would occur in public between players, but it can also be disabled or moved to another chat tab entirely if RP bothers someone or someone wishes to keep it separated from the general area chat. Would be a checkbox in our chat options just like yell, emote, talk, guild, group, etc is.

That is already possible for individuals by setting up an alias command. I use /mp for Marketplace chat all the time, as I set it up long ago. I *think* the command I used was:

/alias mp chat marketplace

Make sure to have a space on the end of that command.

[Racktor]

I didn't mean that, Awdz, though I did call it a chat channel. ^^; Let me reiterate.

Know how you can write /yell <text> and it says: "Racktor yells, '<text>'" into the local chat? Or how you write "/emote <text>" and it says "*Racktor <text>" in the local chat? I'm proposing a "channel" like that, for local chat, but not an actual chat channel. That already exists as the Role-Play channel.

It would allow for role-play and non-role-play to exist side-by-side in local hotspots such as NT or Dralk.

[Shazo]

I somewhat agree to the idea and somewhat don't.

Would be nice to see more people on, more plots ocupied when I fly over them and entire spots are empty or with just a little shack on it. Also more lairs to make parties in, more hunts, friends. Aye, I like that idea.

BUT

I don't precisely like it from the side that it would be harmfull to some people. Plots would have to be removed because I'm very sure theres lots of plots that are occupied in the same spot both in Chaos and Order. If there was any possibility to move said plots to another same size space of choice for the transfer, same goes for lairs, it wouldn't be that bad of an idea.
Of course, I don't think that would be possible. Also, some people ran from Chaos to Order, or viceversa to a new place to start over again and not being bothered, for friend issues, family, RP or any other matter. Merging those shards into one would give them no choice but stick with the only option they have. Personaly I didn't experience such a thing, but I know about people that do.

My final conclusion is, it would be nice to repopulate the game as it was intended to, but there would be lots of conflicts between either players, plot/lair spots being taken on both sides and generaly, a lot of technical issues. It's not like you can move an entire plot from one server to another that easly since its basicaly build within the only oe large world the game has, instead of smaller maps separately in another MMO's.

So, its a no from my side.