Full group exp back?

[Azath]

It seems like all that is being complained about in this thread is a player grouped with one other lowbie alt, seeing reduced exp on the alt. Why not try grouping up with more than just 1 other toon, and go do some big pulls in ED of the t6 blights? Its a challenge, it's fun, it's a group of friends, or players who will become friends. It shouldn't be a walk in the park. And anyone AFK shouldn't get any exp, at all.

Now if the exp for players all standing together, in danger, has had a massive change, then I will ask if someone can quantify the change as well as justify it. but perched players shouldn't get jack, nor should out of range players.

If i'm misinterpretting what you're saying, please correct me.

As as it is group exp is halve; I, as a rating 22 paired witha rating 21 got 330~ ish exp fighting a mob. That same mob, when i fought it without that other present at the same rating, i got 650~ exp.

That exp sap is what i want abolished - i don't want to level that character with others anymore...alongside the trophy and money (from)/loot splits groups already suffer, now we have an exp split too...that's too much for me personally, i don't have any incentive to group level anymore - i'll take the higher difficulty to cut this god awful grind.

I totally agree with you, though, people not contributing shouldn't get too much exp, and i disagree with powerleveling for the most part.

[Racktor]

As as it is group exp is halve; I, as a rating 22 paired witha rating 21 got 330~ ish exp fighting a mob. That same mob, when i fought it without that other present at the same rating, i got 650~ exp.

I think Guaran's point is less about perch leveling and more about exp splits vs time taken for killing.

In your example, you have two people, both rating 20ish. You are getting approximately 50% exp fighting with a friend. Now, if you can kill that mob twice as fast because your friend is around, technically, you are leveling just as fast as you were beforehand alone, but now you have a buddy that can heal you or provide emotional support.

I think group leveling should be a 60% split or larger to encourage and reward grouping. In my 2nd post (which is already drowned out, lol) I might've sounded a little more encouraging of a perfect split, which isn't exactly what I meant.

People group together not only for fun, but to level faster and reduce the ground. Splitting it 50/50 isn't great and it just masks the grind if anything.

Of course, if you have 2 people in a group, same level, and kill a mob 3x faster than before but get 50/50, that's an overall gain. You can't really know with a blanket statement.
A healer and a dragon - the healer will take a lot longer to kill something than the dragon. 50/50 split, dragon suffers, healer gains.
A dragon and a dragon - both take as long to kill something. 50/50 split, no one really 'wins'.
Semantics, basically, but neither situations end up 'rewarding' grouping for both parties, which it should.

Edit: Also if you can kill a mob that you couldn't before that gives a lot of exp in comparison to your on-level ones, that's another situation to take into account. 2 dragons fighting against a lvl 100 when they're 60 and killing it is impossible on their own, but possible together. (Sorta. Not sure if you'd get the 'miss miss miss' issue here) Both characters would benefit unless that one mob takes years to kill.

I'm probably overthinking it here now so
TL;DR: Group leveling should give more exp than leveling on your own when you take time into account. The split shouldn't be right down the middle - even 60% of normal exp, for example, would be an overall benefit to grouping. 50/50 is not beneficial to both parties in most situations.

[Azath]

...Now, if you can kill that mob twice as fast because your friend is around, technically, you are leveling just as fast as you were beforehand alone, but now you have a buddy that can heal you or provide emotional support....
...Group leveling should give more exp than leveling on your own when you take time into account. The split shouldn't be right down the middle - even 60% of normal exp, for example, would be an overall benefit to grouping. 50/50 is not beneficial to both parties in most situations.

Sorry rackie but the "emotional support" bit made me lol. Imagining smeone fighting and their freind is just whispering "it's gonna be okay" to them meanwhile....:P

ANYWAY
I think most exp saps below 80% are counter-productive, honestly.

One perosn fight 50 mobs, gets 20 trophies. They get 4 lots of trophy exp, more overall.

Two people fight 50 mobs, get 20 trophies. They get 2 lots of trophy exp each, less overall per person.

The group exp existing at the original rate is one way to account for the loss of exp described above.

Is grouping quicker? Not neccesarily. There are WAY too many variables to take into account for the length of time a mob takes to kill 2+ vs 1 person.
Is one just a healer, a sorceror, are they both doing the same dps, are they taking on one mob at a time or groups of mobs....

[Guaran]

I dug up an old log from 2007, found a pull of 8 purple necroflies (t6 flies), and from the combat log I can tell there's 6 of us in the group. Don't know all the exact ratings, but it's a typical group with likely rating 100 to 160 players:

The first kill: my exp may have been affected because I had just rejoined group after a CTD and a short rebuffing period.

[08/18/07 14:12:03] Gained Wizard experience: 3959 ( 914 from group bonus ) ( 1523 from multiple enemy bonus )[08/18/07 14:12:03] You hit Purple Necrofly with Ice Bomb IV for 251 ice damage.
[08/18/07 14:12:03] You hit Purple Necrofly with Ice Bomb IV for 279 ice damage.
[08/18/07 14:12:03] You hit Purple Necrofly with Ice Bomb IV for 241 ice damage.
[08/18/07 14:12:03] You hit Purple Necrofly with Ice Bomb IV for 218 ice damage.
[08/18/07 14:12:03] Purple Necrofly has been killed.

Second through fifth kills:

[08/18/07 14:12:04] Gained Wizard experience: 5829 ( 1345 from group bonus ) ( 2242 from multiple enemy bonus )
[08/18/07 14:12:05] Gained Wizard experience: 4734 ( 1093 from group bonus ) ( 1821 from multiple enemy bonus )
[08/18/07 14:12:05] Gained Wizard experience: 4944 ( 1141 from group bonus ) ( 1902 from multiple enemy bonus )
[08/18/07 14:12:05] Gained Wizard experience: 5526 ( 1275 from group bonus ) ( 2126 from multiple enemy bonus )

After looking further down in the log, these are typical exp amounts.

Is the exp after this change still detailed in the log? Meaning can you see the separate amount contributed from the group exp? Maybe it's just bugged and a piece of the exp is being left out.

On the last kill I listed, there appears to be
2125 base exp
2126 multi-mob bonus. we had 8 mobs, perhaps when the bonus reaches 100% of the base exp value it's capped? This pattern is repeated by the other kills.
1275 group bonus. This is 60% of the base exp value. This pattern is repeated by the other kills as well.

I don't have the exp for killing a t6 fly solo as an approximate rating 140 player, But it could very well be 20,000 to 30,000. I know that the total exp per mob in a group, even with all the bonuses was a lot less than if you could solo kill it. But a solo kill would take 5 minutes, and you might die first, plus get swarmed by multiple mobs even when you do not want to...

It was taking between 25 minutes to 2 hours per level, depending on the school:

[08/18/07 15:59:13] You have advanced to level 86 in the Wizard school!
[08/18/07 17:47:17] You have advanced to level 87 in the Wizard school!
[08/18/07 19:45:42] You have advanced to level 88 in the Wizard school!

The other lower level players leveled faster than this.

Anyway, here's some data at least that can be compared.

[Yfelvik]

When you're playing in a group, the number of group members increases the group bonus for combat. Prior to the update, grouped members who were flying contributed to the group bonus - however - since they were flying, all the group bonus went to the players on the ground. This meant that there was a big advantage to having a dragon in your group, just floating in the air. The intention of the group bonus is to reward players who group and fight together (or at least share the risk of fighting).

Below are two scenarios, so it's more clear about what problem was fixed with the update.

Old Scenario 1 - Two bipeds grouped. Biped 1 kills the monster. Because there are two of them, they get a group bonus. While biped 2 did no damage, it shared in the risk and shares in the group bonus reward.

Old Scenario 2 - Dragon and biped grouped. Biped kills the monster. Because the dragon is flying, it gets no experience. Because there are two of them, they get a group bonus. **However** all the group bonus experience is transferred to the biped player.

The fix makes scenario 1 and scenario 2 equal for total experience handed out. In scenario 2, the dragon would not get experience (because it was flying) but the biped would also not get an artificial boost in group xp bonus.

[Azath]

The fix makes scenario 1 and scenario 2 equal for total experience handed out. In scenario 2, the dragon would not get experience (because it was flying) but the biped would also not get an artificial boost in group xp bonus.

This fix has "unintended"(possibly) side-effects, then maybe?

In the scenario i described... "I, as a rating 22 paired witha rating 21 got 330~ ish exp fighting a mob. That same mob, when i fought it without that other present at the same rating, i got 650~ exp."

We were both fighting, both actively damaging, and we still get a halved exp rate. Im for less exp for those not contributing, but 2 players contributing roughly equally it still cuts the exp.

[Spyrioyo]

I am also concerned about the group thing because some biped classes are for support like for example healer and you need to concentrate on protecting one of them in a group.

[LOVWYRM]

ok- I did not want to post that statement, but I am annoyed enough to do now:

Grind-esp when it comes to level a biped- is what makes new players to leave the game.
Or returning players who want to give Istaria another try.

I do not envy the biped with the flapping dragon (what Yfelvic discribes) the double xp.
Nor the low level player on the perch or on the wall the level they gained while sitting on safe place.
We do not have a players base in t1 2 or 3- what wonder that they want to catch up with the majority of players and join their activities!? (ok- no perchlvl anymore- *shrugs* but thats acceptable^^)
We should do anthing that players have fun and motivation and stay for a longer time.
And I can tell from my own experience, those who I "powerlevelled" a bit, got a kick from that-and stayed- more than that they left.
Grouping should be rewarded-not punished-even more than it is now- or it was in the past.

In this thread we are discussing a very important and delicate issue. Important for the future of Istaria.
And obviersly noone involved here, likes that fixes. So..

[Spyrioyo]

.
Grouping should be rewarded-not punished-even more than it is now- or it was in the past.

This is something I agree with Lovwyrm. Grouping should not be penalized anymore than it has or was in the past. This is a community game, grouping should be encouraged it's a good way to attract and keep new players.

In this thread we are discussing a very important and delicate issue. Important for the future of Istaria.

I do agree this is a very important and delicate issue for the future of Isataria.

[Pryzm]

Well i agree with Zyrim and LOVWYRM. Grouping encourages people to stay in a game. If you get cut on xp id rather go allone. My dragon was lvled in a group together with my best friend only until she sadly left the game for personal reasons. Lvling allone was boring. I would just love for my healer, to have the normal amount of group xp back so i can head off with my new friend and lvl her hatchie alonside with my healer. They are the same lvls so far.

[Cegaiel]

This fix has "unintended"(possibly) side-effects, then maybe?

In the scenario i described... "I, as a rating 22 paired witha rating 21 got 330~ ish exp fighting a mob. That same mob, when i fought it without that other present at the same rating, i got 650~ exp."

We were both fighting, both actively damaging, and we still get a halved exp rate. Im for less exp for those not contributing, but 2 players contributing roughly equally it still cuts the exp.

I'm not picking on your statement Azath or you personally, but you summed up exactly why this IS working as intended.

You said by yourself (solo) you got 650 xp. This is what a level 19 mob would give (assuming you didn't have multiple schools under your belt).

If you and an equal rating friend were grouped and it was halved, roughly 325 ish a piece. That sounds right to me. If you both got 650 a piece, then you'd be getting 1400 xp which is what level 33 ish mob normally gives. Forcing a mob to give more experience than it should based on how many members are in group doesn't seem idea to me.

What if there were 20 rating 22's in a group. Giving 650 to each 20 members would mean the mob needs to give 13,000 experience, which is what a level 105 mob would give. I don't think 20 rating 20's could even hurt a level 105, so why would that earn that much experience?

[hallucin8]

But the notion that 2 equal rating players killing the same mob can accomplish the task in half the time, doesn't hold up. IF they are both damage dealers, doing the same amount of damage, then ok... but with 28 biped adventure classes, many of which are NOT damage dealers, the math does not stack up. This is particularly troublesome for the lower level players who only have access to a very limited amount of abilities/spells.

Even at the higher levels, it doesn't necessarily stack up. If you're confronted with undead and aegis who often throw out many debuffs, having 2 in the group won't mean you can kill them twice as fast, especially if again you're not both damage dealers.

This pretty much kills it for me personally... (not that I've been on for ages now anyway :P ) but since I primarily dual-box and am now presented with half the exp... I can't think of a single reason to login now.

[Azath]

I'm not picking on your statement Azath or you personally, but you summed up exactly why this IS working as intended......

Hate to just simply quote stuff here but it's all been said...-casual self bias-

...alongside the trophy and money (from)/loot splits groups already suffer, now we have an exp split too...that's too much for me personally...

Firstly, grouping already impedes "loot penalties" as i'll call them. Two people have to share one mobs loot - this means...

One perosn fight 50 mobs, gets 20 trophies. They get 4 lots of trophy exp, more overall............Two people fight 50 mobs, get 20 trophies. They get 2 lots of trophy exp each, less overall per person...............The group exp existing at the original rate is one way to account for the loss of exp described above...

As well, junk/hoard must be split, and money while leveling a character can be hard to come by. This already makes grouping annoying for me personally...i can't get the most exp to begin with because we have to share trophies, more people = less trophies.

Is grouping quicker? Not neccesarily. There are WAY too many variables to take into account for the length of time a mob takes to kill 2+ vs 1 person.
Is one just a healer, a sorceror, are they both doing the same dps, are they taking on one mob at a time or groups of mobs....

But the notion that 2 equal rating players killing the same mob can accomplish the task in half the time, doesn't hold up. IF they are both damage dealers, doing the same amount of damage, then ok... but with 28 biped adventure classes, many of which are NOT damage dealers, the math does not stack up. This is particularly troublesome for the lower level players who only have access to a very limited amount of abilities/spells.

Even at the higher levels, it doesn't necessarily stack up. If you're confronted with undead and aegis who often throw out many debuffs, having 2 in the group won't mean you can kill them twice as fast, especially if again you're not both damage dealers.

I don't think these need explaining....too many inconsistencies to say that 50% is fair. 50%, as it stands, with all these factors, is faaar too harsh.

I'm personally finding it far quicker to solo as it stands, maybe the people i group with just don't do enough dps or healing for it to be worth grouping.

...most exp saps below 80% are counter-productive, honestly.

Well, i think 70% cut rate would be best? (80% is ideal but i guess i won't push too far).
Due to the loot penalties and the "unfair" split of exp, 50% is incredibly harsh, and just makes leveling together so slow that it's not even worth it anymore.

While group leveling all we get is additional grind now. We get less money, less trophies, and less exp per mob...and with too many inconsistencies and factors to a groups efficiency, there are very few - no, no certain benefits at all to grouping anymore
(keyword: certain. sure..IF you have a healer...IF you have a dps....IF you have a sorc....if if if....too many inconsistencies.

We shouldn't need to forgo the classes we want to enjoy because if i'm not im cleric...grouping up becomes slow, if i'm not in warrior goruping is slow...if im not a dragon melee dps leveling is slow...)

[Guaran]

So they fixed some exp cheats, and people are complaining??

The exploits should stay fixed.

One perosn fight 50 mobs, gets 20 trophies. They get 4 lots of trophy exp, more overall............Two people fight 50 mobs, get 20 trophies. They get 2 lots of trophy exp each, less overall per person...............The group exp existing at the original rate is one way to account for the loss of exp described above...

But they do so at a faster rate. At the minimum they would/should be getting the same exp either way.

In the scenario i described... "I, as a rating 22 paired witha rating 21 got 330~ ish exp fighting a mob. That same mob, when i fought it without that other present at the same rating, i got 650~ exp."

This example if accurate sounds like the group bonus might be missing, or working differently than before. I am ok with there being some exp benefits to grouping. So in the above example, if each player (when at the same rating) was getting say 60% of the solo kill exp in a group of 2 players, they would individually be getting 20% bonus exp due to being grouped. 10% more exp than 50% is a net increase of 20%, plenty for a group bonus. Of course it has to scale down based on number of players, rating, etc. But getting a little bit more than just evenly dividing it is probably ok.

[Racktor]

Guaran, no one is complaining about fixing EXP cheats. (Except maybe one person in the last page or so) What's being complained about is the nerf on group EXP in general - in short, generally you get less EXP for grouping overall than you would if you're fighting alone depending on what you play as. Perch leveling has been shot down by everyone or almost everyone so far. Unless you refer to Lovwyrm's post about the dragon flying or whatever? I can't tell if she's supporting it or not, but personally I wouldn't support any exploit to jump your exp to an unearned amount.

I'm not sure if the 'group exp bonus' is what was hurt or the general exp. I think Azath's post is giving numbers total EXP overall, so including any sort of bonuses. Either way, if you're the damage dealer and your friend is a healer, you're outta luck because you're kiling everything at the same rate but getting half the exp. Your friend benefits because they can barely kill anything in reasonable times and you're speeding it up. You just get some heals. (Which, if you're fighting on level, generally are only really needed between fights) The amount of variables in classes, builds, and fighting times makes a 50/50 split unfair for most players and ends up discouraging grouping because, most of the time, one benefits while the other loses. 60/60 would give a bonus that would make up for lost time for the 'losing' player, at least. (70/70 or 80/80 like Azath suggested would be nice, but I honestly sort of doubt it)

[Spyrioyo]

Guaran, no one is complaining about fixing EXP cheats. (Except maybe one person in the last page or so) What's being complained about is the nerf on group EXP in general - in short, generally you get less EXP for grouping overall than you would if you're fighting alone depending on what you play as. Perch leveling has been shot down by everyone or almost everyone so far. Unless you refer to Lovwyrm's post about the dragon flying or whatever? I can't tell if she's supporting it or not, but personally I wouldn't support any exploit to jump your exp to an unearned amount.

I'm not sure if the 'group exp bonus' is what was hurt or the general exp. I think Azath's post is giving numbers total EXP overall, so including any sort of bonuses. Either way, if you're the damage dealer and your friend is a healer, you're outta luck because you're kiling everything at the same rate but getting half the exp. Your friend benefits because they can barely kill anything in reasonable times and you're speeding it up. You just get some heals. (Which, if you're fighting on level, generally are only really needed between fights) The amount of variables in classes, builds, and fighting times makes a 50/50 split unfair for most players and ends up discouraging grouping because, most of the time, one benefits while the other loses. 60/60 would give a bonus that would make up for lost time for the 'losing' player, at least. (70/70 or 80/80 like Azath suggested would be nice, but I honestly sort of doubt it)

This is about the EXP nerf for group. I think 70/70 might be better. 80/80 seems too high and 60/60 might be too low.

[Azath]

.....

Currently waiting for certain people to get playing again so i can give yall solid numbers on exp.

For now, all i can say is that i level faster solo than the person i was grouping with due to the exp split - we didn't kill the same at remotely close to double the time than i take solo vs grouping so it is inefficient for me to group up.
Perhaps like Racktor says, the person i was grouping with may have received some benefits in that case...but that would simply result in low dps wanting groups, and high dps not wanting groups (grouping needs mutual agreement, thus, discoruages grouping.)

I think a 70% split would benefit for all people in that case and encourage -all- people wanting to group again. But maybe that's just perception...guess we gotta wait for some solid numbers to see.

[Alisto]

I know ESO has a system where if you've two players in a group, both players receive full exp from kills. However, once more people join the group, exp starts going down.

Perhaps an exp reduction per extra person in the group, as opposed to splitting exp between everyone? 30% for two people (70/70), 20 for three (50/50/50), and so on and so forth (made up those numbers)

Edit: Also, adjusting the ratio based on the ratings of the players would be great. I'd love to have my Saris that has a couple 100 schools hunt with a friend's Saris in Dralnok's Doom, but the massive rating difference (which means very little, one kitty wouldn't be contributing far more to killing than theo ther kitty) would tank the exp down to godawful levels for both parties.

[Yfelvik]

Remember when doing a comparison that grouped players split the regular experience from the monster, and also get bonus experience based on their risk (compared to the monster). That risk is a comparison of the sum of group's member rating to the monster's rating. That's why two grouped players split the experience (with little / no bonus) compared to one player fighting the same monster. The risk for those two grouped players is much lower. If they fought something appropriate to their combined rating (took on more risk) the group bonus experience would recognize that and reward appropriately.

[Machaeon]

Remember when doing a comparison that grouped players split the regular experience from the monster, and also get bonus experience based on their risk (compared to the monster). That risk is a comparison of the sum of group's member rating to the monster's rating. That's why two grouped players split the experience (with little / no bonus) compared to one player fighting the same monster. The risk for those two grouped players is much lower. If they fought something appropriate to their combined rating (took on more risk) the group bonus experience would recognize that and reward appropriately.

I can't see this as being all that fair of a system really... two level 30 players are NOT equal to a level 60 player. They might be able to handle a level 40 creature together but a level 60 creature would splatter them both. And some things are just more difficult within a level range; you might be able to handle a few golems that are around your level but not be able to handle the same number of undead at the same levels. You might also NEED some help fighting things, particularly if your gear and/or build isn't the best, or if you're fighting a mob that's immune to your primary damage type.