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Thread: Talk to the Team: Invasions

  1. #1

    Default Talk to the Team: Invasions

    One of the things we'd like to begin making wider use of is organized invasions. Ludwik has been invading and fighting the Gifted, but he has been making use of existing Epic bosses. We're attempting to organize other monsters of similar difficulty but a variety of factions from the Withered Aegis to do invasions... perhaps make use of Heralds again (as we did back with the Satyr Island events of 2004), resource blighting that invasions can do, and perhaps new invasion/AI features later this year.

    One concern remains, however, and that is the concept of rewards. Why should you, as players, fight the invasions if not for decent rewards? We would also like to distinguish invasion rewards from Epic rewards since they should involve separate creatures and separate efforts.

    So, I wanted to get player feedback and ideas for rewards. These would be purchased, most likely, using "Invasion Tokens" looted from invasion monsters. There would be "Invasion Quartermasters" at key cities in each tier, each tier would have its own rewards and costs.

    Here are some ideas we've had for rewards:

    * Old Gear that is no longer available - Mace of Divine Intervention, Gnerph Bat, Reed Whistle, and so forth.
    * Imperial Gear - There is a line of gear called "Imperial" gear in the database that has never been released.
    * Set Items - We have the capability to create "sets" of items similar to the T3 Sets of many years ago (for those who aren't familiar, think sets in Diablo 2 and 3. When multiple pieces are equipped you gain additional bonuses). We could introduce more of these.
    * Old Crystals - Light and Dark crystals
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Invasions

    Biggest problem i see with the way things are now getting any reward for taking part in these "invasions" is you either have to be fast to loot even to the point doing it while others are still fighting or be lucky to win a rnd roll.

    Neither is very appealing to me to get me to drop what Im doing and come running to help. I exspecailly hate the rnd roll method.

    If this isn't way loot is given out for participating forgive me, I only went on 2 and first one there was no random roll, just one person seemed looted quickly and got almost everything and other there was a rnd roll, don't remember who won but wasn't me lol.



  3. #3

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Invasions

    I would think for the tokens a system using the Aura similar to the epic bosses would be used so that everyone involved in the kill would partake.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Invasions

    I like this it actually give incentive to be online and partake rather than just think of them as a "chance to get epic tokens"
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Invasions

    I'm not sure how things are done on other shards but it's ALWAYS a /random for loot with Order's hunts. Only way you don't have at least a fair chance of getting something is if you pass on /random-ing. The "first to loot gets it" thing kinda never happens there.

    I'm not always thrilled about /randoming for loot either... though that's because I'm often the designated looter for hunts so I'm the one stuck in charge of giving everything out fairly over 30 minutes... but regardless, it's the best way to make sure everyone has a fair shot at the loot with how essences/crates drop.
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Invasions

    I really do like those ideas Amon for a new rewards system for the invasions.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Invasions

    I love this idea :)
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Invasions

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post

    *snip*

    Here are some ideas we've had for rewards:

    * Old Gear that is no longer available - Mace of Divine Intervention, Gnerph Bat, Reed Whistle, and so forth.
    * Imperial Gear - There is a line of gear called "Imperial" gear in the database that has never been released.
    * Set Items - We have the capability to create "sets" of items similar to the T3 Sets of many years ago (for those who aren't familiar, think sets in Diablo 2 and 3. When multiple pieces are equipped you gain additional bonuses). We could introduce more of these.
    * Old Crystals - Light and Dark crystals
    Option 1:

    You got my attention with that right there, but would need clarification.

    First and foremost, are there 'old gear' items, that the team would never even consider returning to game? I know a few people who are rather adamant about a few select items, Boar's Hide Mask being the biggest offender.

    Personally, I'd have no problem with being able to get that, but I'm a little concerned about those that would be rather vocal about it and strongly object, thus likely shutting down the idea before it gets the chance to blossom.

    Could we get a little more clarification about which ones would become obtainable if possible?

    Option 2:

    Imperial Gear? I'd be most certainly interested in obtaining something that has never been released. New gear and trinkets (or returning old trinkets) is always a plus. I know many people often ask for 'more fluff and glitz'. Releasing a non-released item/set would be a fantastic idea.

    I'm curious as to what attributes they would have.


    Option 3:

    I'm familiar with the 'set' capability, I fully recall those sets for jewelry, Asfhendia's Mind set, Akhanis' Tormented Soul set, Turble's Summoner Song set, Tareviel's Piercing set, among others. Along the lines of 'Sets' and 'Old Gear' returning to play, I'd love to have the chance to get those again.

    An introduction of 'New Sets', perhaps even with class-specific restrictions like some of the jewelry I mentioned sounds like a wonderful idea! Such a thing would give a boost to class specific skills, thus increasing your effectiveness in a chosen class.

    Since you mentioned Diablo 2's sets... would it even be possible to get like... a flashy/showy 'Aura' or something like the unique class sets in Diablo II did?

    Option 4: Also, kind of along the lines of Option 1 too... while I do like the idea of being able to get old crystals by participating in these sorts of events... are there ones that the team would never consider returning?

    I think the largest issue might be determining which items would not or would make a reappearance, if that were something that had to be done, given the fact that some veterans would complain about their items being 'devalued'.

    Personally, the idea of the CHANCE at getting such a thing motivates me and makes me excited, wanting to participate in these things.

    Also, I think the topic of the COST in tokens would be another factor to consider. I'm sure some veterans would want them to be very pricey (possibly in an attempt to discourage others in trying to get them to preserve their value), while others (those of us that don't have them) would want them to be lower.

    Would there be a system to implement... like how dailies and weeklies for the epics were implemented?

    I already know, given my job, I will not get much opportunity to try for these things and as one of those people, I'd want 'easier' access to acquiring the tokens necessary. I'm also aware I'm not the only one in this situation as well.

    Perhaps even adding quests onto the Marshals to get extra tokens as well, so that when those like me are on our own, we'd be able to quietly work on it while everyone else is asleep.

    I think it is a good idea for an Aura around the 'bosses' of the invasions to activate and give everyone involved in the battle a chance to get the tokens.
    Last edited by Litarath; June 9th, 2016 at 08:26 PM.

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  9. #9

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Invasions

    Just some quick thoughts.

    Firstly, invasions do not have to always have to be the big epic bosses. Could be waves of Ebon golems like in times past. Or waves of undead. As far as loot or dividing the loot, if waves of mobs are used, players can just loot their own kills. No need for aura's or tokens or such. And I am not sure using a token, where I then go buy the exact thing I want, is the route I would take.

    In some prior invasions, I looted a Misty Peridot crystal (was great at the time, now baubles are better), and was like O.O! If old crystals were part of the loot of the mobs, and the invading mob forces were spread out over a large enough area, there would be plenty to go around. I'm not suggesting that everyone who goes kills 10 mobs and gets an old crystal though. Give them a rare, 0.01 % chance to drop. If you hunt solo, you might get lucky, might not. If you hunt in a group, better chance to find something, but then you have to random for it. But if its tokens... I'm just not feeling that. It's more exciting to be out hunting, then find that shiny!. Otherwise, it's too much like grinding,.. it IS grinding, to get enough of the currency, to buy X off a vendor. how anti-climactic. But a rare chance if I go hunt, right now, the mobs invading all of Char could drop something cool?! Yes please! This type of invasion would span a few days, so everyone would have a chance to get in some hunting. Mob's can be difficult but don't need to be Fafnir difficult. And for part of the event, a named could come in, leading the charge. A few hours later perhaps another named could come in. But the main invasion and loot could come from lots of mobs swarming an area. You go hunt, you got a small chance at finding something... old crystal, old regal weapon bit, maybe some new items, potions, ambrosia, etc. But keep it random, and please don't make the items purchasable at a vendor. That turns it into a different type of grind.. from thrill of the hunt and treasure seeking (when the mob has a chance to drop something) vs grindy token grind to spend at NPC x, after which "Oh, I got what I wanted, I don't need to do the invasion now..." No thanks.

    Also, some themed invasions could be done. In times past, Gnomekindle was basically a month-long invasion of blighted christmas treants (treants with the glowing green blight effect plus christmas lights or ornaments on them). Seeing those again would be great.

    How about an invasion of nasty wisps, that look like players do after Reklar wisps them? swarms of them.. with some of the BIG wisps for the occasional boss.
    Last edited by Guaran; June 10th, 2016 at 04:42 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Invasions

    After more ideas to further flesh them out:

    Some invasions can run for a few days as described above. Every 4 to 8 hours, a boss will also charge in. The boss could be old bosses (Umgruk, Scabreia, Griltok, wraith Famine, wraith Palsy, etc.), existing bosses (fafnir, gruk, reklar, etc.), or new bosses. Some old, no longer in game named mobs could be bumped up in power and turned into Bosses. I can look up more of those names once I am back home after work tonight. The bosses would have no loot in their own loot table, i.e. nothing to worry about randoming for, but instead would have the aura that will grant each player who gets the aura, their own loot window. Just simplifies it, and avoids the issues people mentioned sometimes happening in prior posts. Everyone gets their own, individual loot window. This can have epic tokens like existing bosses, as well as perhaps a better chance at the normal loot from the other invading mobs. Maybe .1% chance vs the .01%, or whatever is decided is appropriate by the devs'. Could even be event specific loot. Some repaints of the shoulder parrot, maybe a zombie undead shoulder parrot, called "Umgruk's Spy" or something, and is a chance to drop from Umgruk. But it cannot be bought off a vendor, and only chances to get are during the event. Some are going to miss out. Now we got a trading market happening! (Remembers days of old when Baldarou or Jayne would put something for trade in market, and some crazy bidding would happen :) )

    Second type of invasion event could last longer, say a 1 month event. This would be one where the Blighted treants invade mahagra, Kirasanct, and the frozen tundra areas. This event type would have different rewards, likely smaller, or whatever devs deem appropriate for something running a month.

    Some additional ideas that would work for events of both lengths. A custom title reward for completing some measurable portion of the event, that perhaps grants its' own unique buffs and/or effects. I envision it working like this. Lets say there's a 72 hour invasion of Char planned by the WA. Undead, Ebon golems, etc. will be invading. When the player logs in, they see the shard welcome message which informs of them of the event "The Withered Aegis have launched an attack on the Lunus Homeland! See Battlemaster Trikoz in Dralk on how you might be able to help!" There would be another copy of Trikoz, in Dralk near the landing pad. (New biote number and new dialog). He would explain a brief bit about the invasion, and offer the Title quest. The Title quest could be "Kill 1000 invading Ebom Golems". Once completed, the quest can either autocomplete right then and the title dropped in players backpack, or they go back to Trikoz to turn it in and get the title. Title would be a unique title for that event, and have unique buffs. Perhaps even some glowing particle effects. +15 Damage vs undead, delay adjusted sounds like a good start :)

    The above idea could also be used in the longer 30 day event with the blighted Treants. Kill 1000 Blighted Treants to get another unique title, with unique rewards. There could even be multiple steps and titles in a long event, such as start out killing 250 and get a title, then get a new quest to kill 500, get another title that has some extra benefit, and lastly the Kill 1000 title, with the best yet buffs: Perhaps a gentle snowy effect around the player. Perhaps a +1-3 Flame Damage on all attacks, ala the original version of the Flaming weapon tech. (Since flame is best against ice creatures killed in the event). Stuff like that. The visible Honorifc texts in these titles from the same event could all be the same, but the titles names' in the character window could be different to reflect the different versions.

    Since these are somewhat complex events, could be only 2 to 4 per year. say 2 short ones, 2 longer ones. Other, more simplified invasions could happen more often, that would just have the loot tables for the rewards, skipping the unique titles. The unique titles would only be offered once, and not be re-used. Though new titles on future events could have similar buffs and particle effects. That portion could be reused as needed, but the title itself would not be re-used.
    Last edited by Guaran; June 10th, 2016 at 04:39 PM.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Invasions

    I like all these ideas so far :)
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Invasions

    Multi day invasions sounds to me like a live event. Live events are incredibly difficult to prepare and execute. It is difficult to require that much of a time commitment, very difficult to organize, and implementing one would mean not working on other content updates. Single one-off invasions seem more valid and achievable to me.
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    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

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  13. #13

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Invasions

    Some more ideas:
    (Some of my ideas might not be technically feasible at the time, but while I had it on my mind, I wanted to put them in the thread so I know where to find them all together in the future).

    Invasions from the sea!
    Mobs would spawn out in the ocean, and would come ashore to attack. They would spread out and have say 10 possible paths they come ashore at, so that it isn't obvious that its a pre-programmed path. Mobs could just walk in from the ocean floor depending on type, or swim in if that's ever possible and its a mob that makes sense if they could swim. Could possibly see blighted scarabs as a swimming creature. Welgers perhaps. If any various golem types were used, they could just walk in from the ocean. So they spawn kinda far out, and then follow their programmed route to come ashore and pillage!

    Super fun idea if its ever possible: Flying dragon mobs that fly in and attack. They could either land first, then melee attack, or if its ever made possible, fly in and use spells. The spells' range could be slightly limited, say 20m, so that they would most certainly also be in range of ground based players. If inflight combat could ever be made workable for player Dragons, an automatic inflight buff could be applied that sets all ranged abilites back by -10, to achieve same effect so that the mobs had a fighting chance.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Invasions

    It was discussed so many times. Bringing in old items is going to make too many unhappy. Bring in new items that are similar to old and everyone will be happy. Most old crystals don't make sense anyway because we have way stronger versions now of some.
    The Imperial Gear is a wonderful idea,id support that.
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Invasions

    But keep it random, and please don't make the items purchasable at a vendor. That turns it into a different type of grind.. from thrill of the hunt and treasure seeking (when the mob has a chance to drop something)
    A grind is a grind, no matter how you dress it up. There's very little difference between sacrificing a passing hatchie to RngDrulkar at every kill and killing 5000 whatsits for a token you can turn in for a shiny. Looking back on how well using luck/random in what drops or doesn't drop in the past (how many years was someone after that last Reklar tail scale piece?), I'd much rather it be a token thing.



    Making it RNG based comes with problems. Furthermore, choosing between RNG-based or token-based is a 'pick your poison' type scenario. There is no getting around that they are both grinds.

    Some problems with RNG:
    1) Can the drop rate be balanced appropriately and reach a point where the item isn't too common, but also not too rare? How will the numbers and strength of mobs be adjusted accordingly? (Perhaps stronger mobs could have higher chances - perhaps something to discuss, a hybrid model involving some RNG, some tokens) How to keep people chasing that shiny. One could simply have it drop at a set rate and go 'people who want the item bad enough will do the grind, those who don't, won't'. However, with istaria's age and how much content it gets, making stuff like that might be a bad idea. But of course, that's up to whoever is actually making the content, etc etc, and so on and so forth.
    2) How can it fit into the invasions in a fair way? I don't think it is good game design to have players competing over mob spawns, or some people monopolizing the spawns, and so forth.
    3) What to do about those horridly unlucky people? I've gone through many games there people shrug and go 'RNG is RNG', and while that is correct...(Why yes, thank you cpn obvious, RNG is itself O.o), that doesn't solve the problem that a number of players will suffer the wrath of RNG. What do?

    A pure token system also comes with problems:
    1) RNG-based loot systems are, insofar as I know, as popular as they are due to the carrot on a stick thing. People do chase that shiny because the grind of an RNG system hides itself better than a flat out 'kill a gazillion piggies' does. So where 'go farm x mob, y times' may be daunting or a turn-off to a new player, 'go farm x mob, it has y% chance of dropping' may make them feel less like they're slogging through mud. The amount of games with RNg systems show that people will tend to do something over and over if it has RNG. Again, pick your poison.
    2) Devaluing of the item itself. For super rare items, an extremely low drop chance will make said item x valuable. However, linking an item to a token number, that is then linked to a set number of kills, somewhat (imo) takes away the sparkle of it all. "That epic pork butt helm that makes me a god is worth...wow, okay, 1000 tinier pork butts I gotta farm from blight piggies." instead of "OMG an epic pork butt helm dropped for me, it's drop chance is only <some super low number>. EEEEE *party hats all around*".

    And a problem for both of them - population. How will the token cost/percent drop chance be influenced by how many people there are to farm up the thing(s)? This comes down to two separate things:
    1) Population is small. A variety of factors come into play. HOw many people will be farming the things up, and will they continue doing so after they acquire what they want (so that players who aren't around when the invasions occur can get gold to eventually buy what they want). And because the population is small...how much is gold worth? See below
    2) Gold is near, or pretty much, worthless. No way I'd trade a...say, dim crystal of might for a mithril. I could buy everything in the game a couple times over and still have more than I could ever spend left over from that mithril. On a somewhat related note, more gold sinks would be great and would fix this problem.
    Speaking purely about Order. I could delete 200g on my account nothing would really change, and yet some newbie somewhere would likely be VERY happy if I gave them a couple hundred silver. I have heard of dim crystals going for 1 mithril, and I've always wondered - why? What are you going to do with that much coin? It'll likely sit in someone's inventory until the end of time.

    My personal beef with RNG: I like that when I put x amount of work into something, I get a set amount of y per x back. I dislike RNG stuff because I could put a gazillion hours into something and get absolutely nothing...on the other hand, I could put a second and get a massive amount of y, buuuut how likely is that to happen? It hasn't yet Q_Q. Give me a set path to follow, let me know exactly what it will take, and then I'll decide if it's worth my time.

    I'll leave the whole 'hybrid system' to another post, except for a couple sentences.

    RNG does have the benefit of having people more willing to pay for it (*gestures at post #10). The problem lies with the value of gold. I hope a system that has enough RNG to encourage trade is implemented, but not so much RNG (the slack picked up by some other system, like tokens) that people are discouraged/suffer at the cold, cruel hands of RNG.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Invasions

    Yeah that's pretty much it. One more problem with the tokens is that everything, regardless of how useful or powerful it is, basically has the same cost. Grind for x tokens and your'e done.

    The only place tokens really make sense is on the epic bosses where you could do 100 kills over a 6 month period, and still be missing Sash 4 to make a Reklar's sash... due not only to the rnd for the loot, but the rnd of the drop itself. and 9 out of 10 people in every single hunt would get nothing for the effort. Tokens makes it so that over time, in a repeatable hunt, everyone gets something for the extended effort.

    For events, tokens do not make sense. For the reasons listed in my prior post, but also because these are not necessarily a repeated event. Repeated event = Anchors. No one farms anchors or anchor mobs. If it was blighted christmas treants in the winter in the winter areas, there's a funner, more engaging and realistic feel to it. True, it is probably more akin to the old "ran by hand" dev events. But really, those were the fun ones. Anchors were the first attempt to automate those, and I wouldn't call Anchors a success, at least not in their current implementation. If some new automated and repeatable invasion event was put in, used tokens, its just another type of boss hunt. You only bother hunting them until you have ground out X number of tokens, bought exactly what you wanted, and done.

    It's far more exciting to get something as you are hunting. Even moreso if it's a rare and unique event. Are some people not going to loot anything? Probably. There isn't really anything wrong with that. Events shouldn't have the repeating grind feel to it that going to kill Reklar has... the WHOLE REASON we want invasions back was due to the completely random (it felt like it anyway), unexpected, and exciting nature of them. The old loot was just a bonus. Someone screams out in marketplace "Hellhounds attacking Aughundell!" and it's an immediate rush to go jump in the fray, die a few times, and save a city from utter destruction. Completely different feel to it than "ok we need to grind more tokens, who is up for a reklar hunt?"

    And keep in mind, the invasion mobs in those past events were not epic mobs. Don't need to be. The epics spawning in bristugo is also a fun invasion, but that's mainly because we never normally see Fafnir there, and when we did it was maybe once a year. But if it was always Fafnir, once a week pounding on Bristugo, that also quickly gets old. One months' invasion could be enraged blighted christmas treants all over Mahagra, next month it could be Hellhounds in Dralk, the month after that Level 120 Arbotus' all around Feledan. etc etc. Events can last for a couple hours, a couple days, whatever the devs can reasonably accomplish. If the frequency became only 2 or 3 per year, that's fine as long as they are unpredictable, unusual, and mobs we don't see every day.

    I also think just leaving the loot on the mobs would simplify implementation of whatever they can achieve with the tech they have and the time they can spend on it.

    ***

    If it's easier for the dev team to just keep turning Ludwik loose, I am also fine with that. Even though the mobs are a bit of a recycle, its random enough, and has usually been in different locations enough, that the realness and spontaneity of it are great. Plus he/she was teleporting people. Seriously, doesn't get any more interactive than that!

  17. #17

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Invasions

    I like Amon's ideas in the first posting. Keep it simple, use some kind of aura like the epics so everyone involved in fighting the invasions have a chance to loot tokens. Consider well which old items brought back, the Imperial stuff sounds good, maybe adding new things into the "Imperial Item" line, could be crystals, weapons, techs, ... and item sets aswell.
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Invasions

    Personally I'd like tokens as well, and title quests during the invasions would be fun. Though maybe make it so that the old items which will make a return have xx.xx% chance to drop from one of the mobs during the invasion instead of tokens, so the people who hoard those will complain a little less?
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Invasions

    Quote Originally Posted by Tilithia View Post
    It was discussed so many times. Bringing in old items is going to make too many unhappy. Bring in new items that are similar to old and everyone will be happy. Most old crystals don't make sense anyway because we have way stronger versions now of some.
    The Imperial Gear is a wonderful idea,id support that.
    Lol you mean it will make you unhappy. And maybe the other hoarders. Honestly I don't think anyone else would be upset.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Invasions

    Why make our collecting agents of Istarian antiques unhappy?
    Whats all this fuss about that old items?
    They are definately a reward for long-term players- and those deserve it.
    And the trading action- not so long ago was kinda a player event cross over the shards.
    I respect our "hoarders" and do not want their collections to become worthless.

    And what Tili says: Similar items/techs/crystals are already ingame our shoufd not be that difficult to implement.
    All what is available now is more than adequate to succeed in Istaria or even become uber.
    I can tell cause I do not have or do not use old items.
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    Last Post: July 10th, 2013, 08:22 PM

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