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Thread: Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

  1. #1

    Default Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

    Based upon feedback in the "horse" thread, I wanted to throw out some ideas to discuss. Please note, this is just thoughts and ramblings, this is NOT anything we're planning on implementing for sure. The basic feedback was that the game is slow, especially at the early levels.

    So, I started looking at those early abilities and some of them seem odd to receive at level 3 or 5 or whatever.

    Why change them? To help speed up the game at the early levels, to help players feel as if they are receiving useful abilities every 1 to 2 levels.

    Example: Rend Armor. Useful once you receive Crit Strike or Cleave, but not so useful and noticeable when you are doing minimal damage at level 6.

    Example: Mage's Maddening Trick. Useful later when you are actually needing to do crowd control, but not so useful at level 6 when you are just trying to kill a few monsters, gain a few levels, and learn your school.

    What would change?

    Warrior

    • Move power Strike to level 1. (30s)
    • Leave Rend Armor at level 3, but make it do actual damage AND apply a -armor debuff. (30s)
    • Move Negate Attack to level 7 (rename it to Heroic Shout, make it a Taunt as well as causing the next attack to do 65% less damage) (40s, lower to 30s)
    • Create a new ability called Charge that causes damage to the target and potentially disrupts their next attack (30s recycle)
    • Swap Coordinated Strike (current level 9) and Critical Strike (current level 10)
      • Coordinated Strike (90s, lower to 60s)
      • Critical strike (3m, lower to 60s)

    Mage

    • Make Safety a passive
    • Rename Enhanced flame Bolt to Fiery Bolt and move to level 1 (30s)
    • Move Engulf to level 3 (30s)
    • Move Burn Armor to level 5, make it do direct damage (30s)
    • Move Mage's Maddening Trick to level 10 (30s)
    • Move Burnout I to level 7 (50s, lower to 40s)
    • Leave Perfect Spell at level 9 (2m, lower to 60s)
    • Leave Melee Ward at level 7 (5s)
    • Leave Counterspell Other at level 8 (60s)
    • Leave Coordinated Flame Bolt at level 9 (3m, lower to 60s)

    Cleric

    • Move Smash to level 1 (30s)
    • Move Instant Heal to level 3 (45s, lower to 30s)
    • Move Power Strike to level 5 (30s)
    • Move Magic Crush to level 7 (45s, lower to 30s)
    • Move Coordinated Strike to level 11 (90s, lower to 60s)

    Scout

    • Move Power Shot I to level 1 (30s)
    • Remove Sense Friends/Enemies
    • Add Blinding Shot to level 5 (30s, lower target’s to-hit by 50% for 10s
    • Move Long Shot I to Level 3 (60s, lower to 30s)
    • Move Pinion to level 7 (45s, lower to 30s)
    • Swap Heart Seeker (level 10) with Coordinated Shot (level 9)
      • Heart Seeker (3min, lower to 60s)
      • Coordinated Shot (90s, lower to 60s)

    Dragon Adventurer

    • Most Dragon abilities would remain as is. Two changes in particular would be:
    • Refreshing Breeze, lower recycle to 90s (from 3 minutes)
    • Galewind, lower recycle to 45s (from 60s)


    What are you thoughts, feedback?
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  2. #2

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post

    *snips*

    What would change?

    Warrior

    • Move power Strike to level 1. (30s)
    • Leave Rend Armor at level 3, but make it do actual damage AND apply a -armor debuff. (30s)
    • Move Negate Attack to level 7 (rename it to Heroic Shout, make it a Taunt as well as causing the next attack to do 65% less damage) (40s, lower to 30s)
    • Create a new ability called Charge that causes damage to the target and potentially disrupts their next attack (30s recycle)
    • Swap Coordinated Strike (current level 9) and Critical Strike (current level 10)
      • Coordinated Strike (90s, lower to 60s)
      • Critical strike (3m, lower to 60s)

    Mage

    • Make Safety a passive
    • Rename Enhanced flame Bolt to Fiery Bolt and move to level 1 (30s)
    • Move Engulf to level 3 (30s)
    • Move Burn Armor to level 5, make it do direct damage (30s)
    • Move Mage's Maddening Trick to level 10 (30s)
    • Move Burnout I to level 7 (50s, lower to 40s)
    • Leave Perfect Spell at level 9 (2m, lower to 60s)
    • Leave Melee Ward at level 7 (5s)
    • Leave Counterspell Other at level 8 (60s)
    • Leave Coordinated Flame Bolt at level 9 (3m, lower to 60s)

    Cleric

    • Move Smash to level 1 (30s)
    • Move Instant Heal to level 3 (45s, lower to 30s)
    • Move Power Strike to level 5 (30s)
    • Move Magic Crush to level 7 (45s, lower to 30s)
    • Move Coordinated Strike to level 11 (90s, lower to 60s)

    Scout

    • Move Power Shot I to level 1 (30s)
    • Remove Sense Friends/Enemies
    • Add Blinding Shot to level 5 (30s, lower targetís to-hit by 50% for 10s
    • Move Long Shot I to Level 3 (60s, lower to 30s)
    • Move Pinion to level 7 (45s, lower to 30s)
    • Swap Heart Seeker (level 10) with Coordinated Shot (level 9)
      • Heart Seeker (3min, lower to 60s)
      • Coordinated Shot (90s, lower to 60s)

    Dragon Adventurer

    • Most Dragon abilities would remain as is. Two changes in particular would be:
    • Refreshing Breeze, lower recycle to 90s (from 3 minutes)
    • Galewind, lower recycle to 45s (from 60s)


    What are you thoughts, feedback?
    Warrior:

    I do like how this looks so far, but would like to learn a little more about Charge. Would it be masterable? Would it be Warrior specific? Would other warrior type classes learn it?

    Heroic Shout... by 'taunt' do you mean it would actually draw aggro of foes... or just occasionally intercept attacks for others... like Interpose, or Defend other?


    Mage:

    Safety a passive? I LOVE the idea of that! One less buff to recharge! That brings to mind something else! What about making Melee Ward a masterable passive as well?

    I seem to recall that ELAR have the Elemental Ward ability, which is a masterable ability that gives a ward against... I think it was Flame, Ice, Nature, and Spirit.

    Druids also have an ability that changes its name as it grows stronger... but the one that immediately comes to mind is 'Vivacity', which gives a masterable passive resistance to crush, slash, and pierce damage.

    I think having a masterable passive that grants a ward against crush, slash, and pierce would be beneficial as well, not to mention, remove yet another buff that has to be recharged quite frequently.


    Cleric:

    Hmm... I can't really think of anything on this one at the moment...I'll post again as more ideas come to mind.


    Scout:

    I like the idea of abilities that can harm enemies' abilities to fight effectively. This brings to mind the Archer job in games like Final Fantasy Tactics Advance. A Scout/Archer, should have exceptional aim and coordination, able to hit specific weak points to make an enemy an easier target.

    That Blinding Shot is a great example!

    Another that comes to mind is FFTA's Archer's that Aim: Arm, disables attacking with a weapon for a short time. The FFTA's Sniper's Aim: Throat: disables using spells/spell-like abilities for a time. Things like that would be wonderful!


    Dragons:

    I don't really have any comments or ideas on this one as well, but lower recycles on key abilities like that, I can certainly appreciate!
    Last edited by Litarath; June 14th, 2016 at 08:24 PM.

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

    I generally like these. It can't hurt anything to shift a few of these abilities around. That will not affect the level at which the subsequent versions of an ability will be gained at will it? Such as what level the next version of Power Strike would be received at for example? Usually abilities you get are spaced at specific level intervals (each power strike might be 8 levels apart for example). If moving the low level abilities doesn't also shift the upper level abilities, I think these ideas are good to go.

    Making Safety a passive is nice. It currently conflicts with True Grit, would that conflict be removed? True Grit is a better buff, so removing the conflict would be best.

    Instead of removing sense enemies and sense friends (true, I never use these), perhaps they could be improved, joined into a single sense ability, and generates floating red (enemies) and green (friends) visible lines/pointers that hover in space? so at 45 degrees above the players line of sight, and out in front of the player, a small invisible circle is the anchor for pointers that go outward from it with color coded lines. So that you get an at a glance representation of the placement of both enemies and friends in your vicinity, including those that might be behind the player. The farther away the enemy/player is, the line can be both fainter and longer, with perhaps 1/3 the screen width being the max length of those lines, and shorter when the mob is closer. After using the abilities, they get the popup representation of enemies and friends placements, and it fades after a few seconds.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    Based upon feedback in the "horse" thread, I wanted to throw out some ideas to discuss. Please note, this is just thoughts and ramblings, this is NOT anything we're planning on implementing for sure. The basic feedback was that the game is slow, especially at the early levels.

    So, I started looking at those early abilities and some of them seem odd to receive at level 3 or 5 or whatever.

    Why change them? To help speed up the game at the early levels, to help players feel as if they are receiving useful abilities every 1 to 2 levels.

    Example: Rend Armor. Useful once you receive Crit Strike or Cleave, but not so useful and noticeable when you are doing minimal damage at level 6.

    Example: Mage's Maddening Trick. Useful later when you are actually needing to do crowd control, but not so useful at level 6 when you are just trying to kill a few monsters, gain a few levels, and learn your school.

    What would change?

    Warrior

    • Move power Strike to level 1. (30s)
    • Leave Rend Armor at level 3, but make it do actual damage AND apply a -armor debuff. (30s)
    • Move Negate Attack to level 7 (rename it to Heroic Shout, make it a Taunt as well as causing the next attack to do 65% less damage) (40s, lower to 30s)
    • Create a new ability called Charge that causes damage to the target and potentially disrupts their next attack (30s recycle)
    • Swap Coordinated Strike (current level 9) and Critical Strike (current level 10)
      • Coordinated Strike (90s, lower to 60s)
      • Critical strike (3m, lower to 60s)

    Mage

    • Make Safety a passive
    • Rename Enhanced flame Bolt to Fiery Bolt and move to level 1 (30s)
    • Move Engulf to level 3 (30s)
    • Move Burn Armor to level 5, make it do direct damage (30s)
    • Move Mage's Maddening Trick to level 10 (30s)
    • Move Burnout I to level 7 (50s, lower to 40s)
    • Leave Perfect Spell at level 9 (2m, lower to 60s)
    • Leave Melee Ward at level 7 (5s)
    • Leave Counterspell Other at level 8 (60s)
    • Leave Coordinated Flame Bolt at level 9 (3m, lower to 60s)

    Cleric

    • Move Smash to level 1 (30s)
    • Move Instant Heal to level 3 (45s, lower to 30s)
    • Move Power Strike to level 5 (30s)
    • Move Magic Crush to level 7 (45s, lower to 30s)
    • Move Coordinated Strike to level 11 (90s, lower to 60s)

    Scout

    • Move Power Shot I to level 1 (30s)
    • Remove Sense Friends/Enemies
    • Add Blinding Shot to level 5 (30s, lower target’s to-hit by 50% for 10s
    • Move Long Shot I to Level 3 (60s, lower to 30s)
    • Move Pinion to level 7 (45s, lower to 30s)
    • Swap Heart Seeker (level 10) with Coordinated Shot (level 9)
      • Heart Seeker (3min, lower to 60s)
      • Coordinated Shot (90s, lower to 60s)

    Dragon Adventurer

    • Most Dragon abilities would remain as is. Two changes in particular would be:
    • Refreshing Breeze, lower recycle to 90s (from 3 minutes)
    • Galewind, lower recycle to 45s (from 60s)


    What are you thoughts, feedback?
    I like the ideas however, I would dislike Safety changing to passive if it doesn't stay masterable... ( I use it quite alot). And maybe as said before me, change Melee Ward to passive then as well? (only if the effects/masterable stay the same though...)

    Definitely like the changes to the cooldowns of the abilities, some take way too long to be useable again.

    I like Guaran's idea about sense friends/enemies, while I also don't really use it, except maybe the few times I'm a Scout and want to find my friends without checking the map haha. Also gives a real scout feeling to it, when doing the quests where you have to scout out the Withered Aegis.
    Although maybe give Sense Enemies a new effect? Like -XX% incoming damage for XXseconds (with longer cooldown), due to knowing the positions of your enemies and thus knowing where the attacks are coming from or something like that. xD
    Light covers night, night fades, when it does, storms come. ~Storm Dragons
    Currently Getting Coppers, gaining Silver, making Gold, Pursuing Mithril!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

    Love the changes. Only concern is if remains master able.. it needs to remain as it is in my view.

    The other one is coordinated attacks seem pretty pointless... I almost never use it. How about replacing it with a DoT? Or something that increases if it follows another ability. Say extra damage vs stunned targets or burning targets etc?
    Gwain Drago - Mystic Paladin
    Arzel - Knight of creation/Battlemage
    Aurakvoar - Ancient Lunus

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

    Quote Originally Posted by Calyndrell View Post
    The other one is coordinated attacks seem pretty pointless... I almost never use it. How about replacing it with a DoT? Or something that increases if it follows another ability. Say extra damage vs stunned targets or burning targets etc?
    Well... coordinated attacks are supposed to do more damage if other bipeds use coordinated attacks around the same time so it's... decent if you can coordinate a multiple biped group to do that. But then again how often do you GET more than one biped in a group, let alone actually coordinate like that?
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

    Quote Originally Posted by Machaeon View Post
    Well... coordinated attacks are supposed to do more damage if other bipeds use coordinated attacks around the same time so it's... decent if you can coordinate a multiple biped group to do that. But then again how often do you GET more than one biped in a group, let alone actually coordinate like that?
    Yep I know that Mach and thus you prove my point. It should have some utility single player otherwise it's a waste of time especially considering how many times it "improves" it's like think of it as the number zero... which it basically is.... does matter if you multiply it by 10, 20 or a million.... it's still worth zero.
    Gwain Drago - Mystic Paladin
    Arzel - Knight of creation/Battlemage
    Aurakvoar - Ancient Lunus

  8. #8

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

    Rather than Remove co-ordinated attack, why not improve it instead? I think it can be a good group tactic using co-ordinated attack, we've used it before. Up the damage, along with an even bigger increase when it is used in a group setting. Then players wouldn't ignore it.

    The dot suggestion can also be added that Arzel suggested, varying levels of the bleed dot that comes with a new attack, or add the bleed to one of the existing mainstays like Power strike, Critical strike, etc.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guaran View Post
    Rather than Remove co-ordinated attack, why not improve it instead? I think it can be a good group tactic using co-ordinated attack, we've used it before. Up the damage, along with an even bigger increase when it is used in a group setting. Then players wouldn't ignore it.

    The dot suggestion can also be added that Arzel suggested, varying levels of the bleed dot that comes with a new attack, or add the bleed to one of the existing mainstays like Power strike, Critical strike, etc.
    Well I can't argue with you guaran, for once. Either way coordinated attacks as they are is a waste.
    Gwain Drago - Mystic Paladin
    Arzel - Knight of creation/Battlemage
    Aurakvoar - Ancient Lunus

  10. #10

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

    Quote Originally Posted by Calyndrell View Post
    Well I can't argue with you guaran, for once. Either way coordinated attacks as they are is a waste.
    I always thought coordinated attack would be more useful if it gave the person who initiated it the same bonus, as long as they did not use a different special attack while the timer was on. Usually in groups we get a mix of classes, so rarely have I ever seen it actually used.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

    Quote Originally Posted by awdz View Post
    I always thought coordinated attack would be more useful if it gave the person who initiated it the same bonus, as long as they did not use a different special attack while the timer was on. Usually in groups we get a mix of classes, so rarely have I ever seen it actually used.
    I could be wrong although I believe most classes have a variation of coordinated strike.
    Gwain Drago - Mystic Paladin
    Arzel - Knight of creation/Battlemage
    Aurakvoar - Ancient Lunus

  12. #12

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

    Quote Originally Posted by Calyndrell View Post
    I could be wrong although I believe most classes have a variation of coordinated strike.
    Maybe I missed something, but I was under the impression that coordinated attacks of different varieties (strike, bolt, shot, etc.?) did not work together. Still not that great when soloing anyway.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

    They don't work together no, since they all have the same effect, the highest form of coordination attack used will overwrite the others, or if its the same refresh it. Though Coordinated Strike X and Coordinated Flame Bolt X , one might overwrite the other, while the remaining ones' effect would just fail since target X already has <something> instead of refreshing afaik.
    Light covers night, night fades, when it does, storms come. ~Storm Dragons
    Currently Getting Coppers, gaining Silver, making Gold, Pursuing Mithril!

  14. #14

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

    Quote Originally Posted by flamefeniks View Post
    They don't work together no, since they all have the same effect, the highest form of coordination attack used will overwrite the others, or if its the same refresh it. Though Coordinated Strike X and Coordinated Flame Bolt X , one might overwrite the other, while the remaining ones' effect would just fail since target X already has <something> instead of refreshing afaik.
    If that's true then thatjust reinforces my opinion that it's a waste .
    Gwain Drago - Mystic Paladin
    Arzel - Knight of creation/Battlemage
    Aurakvoar - Ancient Lunus

  15. #15

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

    Thank you for the feedback so far!

    Let's see. At this point I think leaving Safety and Sense Enemies/Friends as they currently are is probably the best option.

    Coordinated abilities (other than the recycle change) are almost a separate discussion about how to truly improve them. So I'm going to leave them alone as well.

    Some other questions that were asked:

    * Heroic Shout - Taunt, as in generate additional aggro. We have this capability, assuming the code works, it just has never really been used (or very seldom).
    * Charge - I haven't really gotten any details on it beyond what you see, but since its < level 10 I would think it would be masterable.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post

    * Heroic Shout - Taunt, as in generate additional aggro. We have this capability, assuming the code works, it just has never really been used (or very seldom).
    If it works I'd love that O.o
    Light covers night, night fades, when it does, storms come. ~Storm Dragons
    Currently Getting Coppers, gaining Silver, making Gold, Pursuing Mithril!

  17. #17

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

    Would it be possible to make Druid, Monk, and Spiritist schools joinable again without requiring level 10 in other schools? I enjoy starting a Monk and have no real desire to level up Warrior just to do it. I realize that 10 isn't that much at all, but it does hinder the adv rating and Warrior doesn't have any really good masterable abilities that pass on at level 10. Same for Mage and Spiritist. Many Mage abilities don't transfer over and many Mage spells are not castable by Spiritist. Since those three classes are no longer joinable in New Trismus, it's not as though a true newbie would join them right out of the chute. If a player knows where to find those trainers to join, they should be able to with out having to get another class to 10 first.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

    Quote Originally Posted by flamefeniks View Post
    They don't work together no, since they all have the same effect, the highest form of coordination attack used will overwrite the others, or if its the same refresh it. Though Coordinated Strike X and Coordinated Flame Bolt X , one might overwrite the other, while the remaining ones' effect would just fail since target X already has <something> instead of refreshing afaik.
    They actually do work together. If you use say coordinated flame bolt 4 (whatever is mastered), you put the effect on the target. If you then use coordinated strike X, you should get increased damage for that attack, the amount indicated in the description of the flame bolts' coordinated effect, plus it refreshes the effect on the mob (which is where the added damage comes from), so you can then follow it up with yet more of the various mastered coordinated attack abilities. The sucky part is that only 1 ability that's from the class you are in, will put the max strength effect on. The mastered coordinated abilities are all low damage for someone in a level 100 school..

    If the attack had both an overall boost plus a boost to the effectiveness of the effect that lands on the target, it would be good.

    But it's true that in their current form, the mastered coordinated abilities aren't worth hotkeying. I do keep the classes' specific coordinated ability on the bar.

    I do not think just deleting it without first trying to improve it would be the way to proceed. It can be turned into something a group can use to increase the damage they do.

    In fact, if the effect on the target increased ALL incoming damage, not just damage from a coordinated attack ability, would instantly become useful in all forms. (probably wishful thinking)

  19. #19

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guaran View Post
    They actually do work together. If you use say coordinated flame bolt 4 (whatever is mastered), you put the effect on the target. If you then use coordinated strike X, you should get increased damage for that attack, the amount indicated in the description of the flame bolts' coordinated effect, plus it refreshes the effect on the mob (which is where the added damage comes from), so you can then follow it up with yet more of the various mastered coordinated attack abilities. The sucky part is that only 1 ability that's from the class you are in, will put the max strength effect on. The mastered coordinated abilities are all low damage for someone in a level 100 school..

    If the attack had both an overall boost plus a boost to the effectiveness of the effect that lands on the target, it would be good.

    But it's true that in their current form, the mastered coordinated abilities aren't worth hotkeying. I do keep the classes' specific coordinated ability on the bar.

    I do not think just deleting it without first trying to improve it would be the way to proceed. It can be turned into something a group can use to increase the damage they do.

    In fact, if the effect on the target increased ALL incoming damage, not just damage from a coordinated attack ability, would instantly become useful in all forms. (probably wishful thinking)
    This is what I thought happened. Also the Coordinated abilities all share the same timer so I don't believe you can benefit from your own attack.
    Gwain Drago - Mystic Paladin
    Arzel - Knight of creation/Battlemage
    Aurakvoar - Ancient Lunus

  20. #20

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Basic Schools (Levels 1 to 10)

    I have made the changes to Warrior for the next patch:


    • Power Strike I is now received at level 1
    • Negate Attack 1 is now known as Heroic Shout 1 and is received at level 7 (instead of 4). It has a 20 meter range, a 30 second recycle, a 2.5 post-delay and a taunt equal to 100 damage. Instead of giving a buff to the player, it now gives a debuff called Confused to the target which reduces the damage of its next attack (to any target).
    • Coordinated Strike I is now received at level 10 (instead of 9) and has a recycle of 60 seconds (down from 90)
    • Critical Strike I is now received at level 9 (instead of 10), has a recycle of 60 seconds (down from 3 minutes) and a 1.5 post-delay
    • New ability, Charge, received at level 5. 30 second recycle, 2.5 post-delay, gives a debuff called Interrupted that prevents your target from executing any actions for 3 seconds.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

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