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Thread: epic thoughts^^

  1. #1

    Default epic thoughts^^

    SoG, Valkor, Reklar,
    are greater epics- not involved in any questline (besides dailys and weeklys..)
    (ok- SoG title-but thats different)

    Queen is involved- but only in the last part of the quest. Same goes for Falgut

    Faffnir, Gruck, AoP, Project x
    are lesser epics- not involved in any questline (besides dailys and weeklys)
    Daknor is involved-in last part of the quest.

    Not sure about the anchors (think they are Lesser)-
    Major Blight Anchor (in Delga) is not an epic anymore- but last part of a questline.

    Correct me pls if I said something wrong.

    What I wanted to talk about..again^^..
    is SURTHEIM
    is his job logical?
    I consider him the strongest boss we have atm
    you need an experienced-not too small group- perfect equipped with perfect tactics and lots of tricks
    to get him down.
    He is only a Lesser.
    All good.
    I love challenges.

    But he is part of questlines. Questlines that not necessaryly endgame/vet players have to play.
    The reverse is more likely
    Vets can ignore him if they cant find good group,
    but lots of people I know are stuck in their questlines
    esp. if they are not healer or dragons.

    Surth seems to be an exception..an annoying one^^
    What do you think?
    ok- thy for reading-I know I opened a similar thread some time before- but I thought I try again with a fresh thread^^P
    YOU told me to play a dragon! [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #2

    Default Re: epic thoughts^^

    Surtheim is used for about 5 quest lines in the game, included but not limited to the Queen Myloc questline, Burning archer, Dragons ability to make the fiery rift crystals, and possibly a few other quests. Yet he is harder to kill than the queen herself. Does a lesser Epic need to be more powerful than a Greater Epic? does Surtheim need to be an Epic at all?

  3. #3

    Default Re: epic thoughts^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Malicore View Post
    does Surtheim need to be an Epic at all?
    My vote is "no" since I'm stuck at that point on the Crystalshaping questline now


  4. #4

    Default Re: epic thoughts^^

    Or leave him EPIC- but substitute him with someone easier to get down in the paticular quests..
    YOU told me to play a dragon! [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #5

    Default Re: epic thoughts^^

    Definitely agree 100% here.

    Surth is good to leave for 1 questline, but as one of the most annoying bosses around, 3 is overkill.

    I vehemently oppose that he needs to be killed for the crystalshaper quest (or, doesn't need to be, but one day we're gonna run out of spare fire materia, what then.) - it worked well when he was soloable, but as one of THE toughest epics in the game?? For a questline lv80 can do??? If anything imo - put in a fire elemental at surth's old strength and have that be killed for fire materia for crystalshaper quest, and obviously this one would not be considered a lesser epic.

    Dunno what do to about the repetition in burning archer and volcano questline, maybe a different alchemical ingredient for the cleansing bath instead of fire materia trophies that comes from another lesser epic//volcano questline?

    Frankly i'm in the "Vets can ignore him if they cant find good group"-group, i usually don't go on a surth hunt unless volcano/BA is needed, and even then i often don't join (it's a headache being a healer for surth xD).

  6. #6

    Default Re: epic thoughts^^

    While i agree with LOVWYRM i am not sure there is going to be different conclusion then from that thread a year ago, since the arguments have not changed.

  7. #7

    Default Re: epic thoughts^^

    I was just saying on Discord that some of the quest lines don't make sense. Especially on Order with our tiny population. The Burning Archer quest isn't considered to be one of the major ones but it now takes so much to finish it. And the rewards for lesser quests that we ARE able to finish, those rewards are not so wonderful, to be honest. My goat just did two Ranger quests and she got two bow tech kits. But you can not apply both of the kits to the same bow and one of the kits, by itself, is just not that great a bow enhancer.
    Now all the uber players are going to rant that the game is already too easy or that I should just move to Chaos. Don't bother, please.
    Cixi
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: epic thoughts^^

    I have a guildmate who has progressed the Burning Archer quest up to the step for defeating Surtheim. Unless the quest is changed to require killing an alternative enemy which is lesser than Surtheim, or that Surtheim be accordingly weakened (or returned to his pre-epic group configuration), my guildmate will most likely continue to wait. We are on Order Shard and have no interest in moving to Chaos Shard.

    Knossos

  9. #9

    Default Re: epic thoughts^^

    Surtheim might be a bit overkill. But him being "strong" is warranted, at least for the Burning Archer quest
    Surtheim is the very essence of Flame embodied. He is the power of flame in it's purest form.
    Now having him be used for the Crystalshaper quest is over the top. He was ok for that quest when he was solo-able. A different mob could be used for that quest. Maybe the kion volcano flame elemental. Or put the one that used to live out in Char (t4) back, and use him for this quest.

    Burning Archer is an Epic ability. For that he is fine.

    Since the Myloc Queen questline is also an epic questline, he's ok for that as well.

    Not saying that those dots aren't a bit much. Perhaps either: Shorten the duration of the dots, or reduce the number of helpers to just 1. Those would be ok compromises, while keeping the new mechanics around. He is interesting in that he takes different tactics and uses different mechanics than the other bosses.

    *******

    On a related note. Someone in Discord was complaining about the Dire Wolf Hide Grip techs for bows... and them not being as good as a Demon Flurry. I think those are pretty decent techs. At least the single quest reward version that is stronger than the rest is.

    As for the Demon Flurry being "too hard" to get. I got multiple points for that. The same basic ones I have for someone a few months back who was whining in Chaos Marketplace about his t5 gear and how t5 comps were too hard to gather.. For one, you don't need to use t5 comps for your first set of t5 gear. Make some t5 gear with t3 techs. Much easier to obtain comps. Less needed. Once you get that set built, you can start working on a t5 teched version... Or you could just play using that as-is. You'd be fine.

    So I told them they didn't need t5 techs on their first set of gear. Same goes for weapons, no one "needs" an epic weapon. You don't need a Demon Flurry. You want it, but don't really need it. There's a difference. They are epic for a reason. They are meant to be difficult to obtain. And honestly, a crafted bow with the dire hide tech is pretty close to the epic bows. You could play for years with that crafted bow and not enjoy the game any less...

    The discord argument was something like "make the dire hide tech equal to an epic, so I can have an epic without having to do the work required to get a Demon bow.." I have to disagree with that. I actually wouldn't mind the dire hide tech being stronger, but think the quest should become more difficult to reflect it. Perhaps add another quest on the end of that chain, to earn an "Improved Dire Hide Grip" tech. Have part of the quest be to loot something off the Dire Wolves in Valkor's Lair. Not that difficult but at least epic related...

    But reasons like "I can't find a group to kill epics" are not really valid for either 1) making epics into standard difficulty encounters, or 2) making non-epic items that end up being equal to the epic weapons themselves. The second one would invalidate the epic weapons and make them pointless.

    @Lovwyrm

    Reklar does have a small quest related to him, the one that earns you the Primal Boon spell... He had an event launch him into the game... so did Valkor (the first haloween even iirc). Daknor and Fafnir came in as events also, and they do have questlines (to get the Ceremonial Shield and Scales. And originally you had to kill each at least once to finish the questlines. Fafnir can be skipped now..). Gruk was part of that same event but nothing ever came in specific to him. Before that could happen Horizons entered the "Dark Times"...

    But it's a good point. Some more epic questlines that sends you after the various epic bosses like Reklar, Valkor, and Gruk would be good. Maybe use Gruk as part of a new quest to learn Banshee. Reklar to learn Soul-Gate. Things like that
    Last edited by Guaran; April 12th, 2017 at 04:09 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: epic thoughts^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Guaran View Post
    Not saying that those dots aren't a bit much. Perhaps either: Shorten the duration of the dots, or reduce the number of helpers to just 1. Those would be ok compromises, while keeping the new mechanics around. He is interesting in that he takes different tactics and uses different mechanics than the other bosses.
    I second that. Make Surtheim a little easier to regular lvl 100 groups and all is fine. A good solution would be to lower the dots to three ticks. This enables a good healer to get his job managed at all.

    Right now I've made the experience that not even two healers can manage healing on Surtheim, except every group mate is trying to dispell the dot asap on their own. And even then it's really luck if you can keep them alive at all.

    ------------------
    Istaria Lexica | Istaria Reference

  11. #11
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    Default Re: epic thoughts^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Elteria View Post
    Right now I've made the experience that not even two healers can manage healing on Surtheim, except every group mate is trying to dispell the dot asap on their own. And even then it's really luck if you can keep them alive at all.
    I've no idea who you hunt with but I helped a small hunt group kill Surtheim when I was the only healer. Save group instant heal + group health for combust to help dispel it, basically, but your group also does have to know to keep themselves cleansed. That's part of the challenge.

    Regardless, I do agree Surth is too strong for a lvl 80 quest.

  12. #12

    Default Re: epic thoughts^^

    Exactly Racktor, thats the point.
    As I mentioned above- you need "An experienced,perfect equipped . perfect tactics group" and it works.

    We had to help groups with not that experienced fighters, returning players or hardcore crafters..
    and sometimes one player who does not know how- to.. will kill the whole group.
    Then one healer is not enough to keep those alive who need the quest.
    YOU told me to play a dragon! [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  13. #13

    Default Re: epic thoughts^^

    All that said....

    I've seen a dragon solo surtheim in his current form. But it required pulling out all the stops.
    Flame resistant scales, flame resist crystals equipped in all possible places.
    Blood Talon
    Decent stack of Ahala's brew (the HOT) Say 30+.
    Cleanses on all dragon spells that can take it.
    Flame resist t6 consumable crystal.

    Kill the adds as soon as they spawn. Do not loot them, as they respawn faster, just drags out the fight even longer.
    Cleanse yourself every other action to every 2 or 3 actions. Meaning, use gold rage, cleanse yourself, use ravage, cleanse yourself, use tailwhip, use bite, cleanse yourself...

    Probably the main thing for a Surtheim fight to succeed is for all players to be able to cleanse themselves.

    He's definitely not an epic for the casual group. You shouldn't really need to do all of the above to finish the Crystalshaper quest. All the rest though, I like him as is

  14. #14

    Default Re: epic thoughts^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Guaran View Post
    Probably the main thing for a Surtheim fight to succeed is for all players to be able to cleanse themselves.
    Yes, indeed.
    That's why I mentioned the idea about changing the dots so healers are at least a little wee bit to manage healing/cleansing. Right now they can't. I've seen that Dragon Video, too btw. Very impressive but I don't think we can compare that strategy with an adventuring group's strategy.

    By the way.. I had another idea: Make the dots tick slower.. in my opinion, if they hit each 10-12 seconds that would help, too. How fast is it by now? all 6 seconds?

    ------------------
    Istaria Lexica | Istaria Reference

  15. #15

    Default Re: epic thoughts^^

    For the next update we're discussing a change that involves a non-Epic version of Surtheim for those who need to gather the materia and an epic version of Surtheim for those who wish to fight for the tokens and for future, related epic items.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  16. #16

    Default Re: epic thoughts^^

    Cool.

    There was a fortress-y place out in char someplace that used to house a big flame elemental. Could put him there.

  17. #17

    Default Re: epic thoughts^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Guaran View Post
    Cool.

    There was a fortress-y place out in char someplace that used to house a big flame elemental. Could put him there.
    Found the spot : 21160, 29840. My mapmarker says "Idol of Flame". But he doesn't seem to spawn anymore. Could put him back in, give him the drop. Or just put the duplicate Surtheim there. It currently has pygmies spawning there too. Could probably just leave them. They would be "mini-helpers"

  18. #18
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    Default Re: epic thoughts^^

    Since this is "epic 'thoughts' " and all, here's a thought of mine, Burning Archer seems rather... (very?) weak? Or is that just my imaginitation lol.
    Because honestly if you have to defeat Surtheim, who's one of the strongest now, I expected well, a strong epic ability. :/
    Light covers night, night fades, when it does, storms come. ~Storm Dragons
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  19. #19

    Default Re: epic thoughts^^

    Quote Originally Posted by flamefeniks View Post
    Since this is "epic 'thoughts' " and all, here's a thought of mine, Burning Archer seems rather... (very?) weak? Or is that just my imaginitation lol.
    Because honestly if you have to defeat Surtheim, who's one of the strongest now, I expected well, a strong epic ability. :/
    Agree. Does less dmg than epic spells. And those who play dragons need to keep in mind they do a lot more damage than bipeds.
    Cixi
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  20. #20

    Default Re: epic thoughts^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Ming View Post
    Agree. Does less dmg than epic spells. And those who play dragons need to keep in mind they do a lot more damage than bipeds.
    Keep in mind also, that even though it seems a bit weak.. it's fire attack. does well against icy mobs. and does a area effect of 35. now with multicast, perfect spell and burnout.. it' is a very nice epic ability I think.
    Last edited by Malicore; April 14th, 2017 at 05:55 PM.

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