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Thread: Server Merge

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Server Merge

    A merge was suggested before the copy token, turned down for essentially “Order players prefer their plots and smaller community and don't want to lose their property” so this isn't because of the copy token. The copy token was suggested so people wanting to get to Chaos for the higher population wouldn't have to transfer entirely and could still help out around Order when they were needed. That's why I copied.

    I'm sorry to say that you're wrong about the players here always wanting a merge.

    In this thread you'll see that most of us currently asking for a merge didn't want it originally. That was back in the days when the population was at least lively if not thriving, quiet but active. I personally was against a merge then, there was no good reason then. But now there is when the shard averages 5 people online and 10 total when you count invisible people.

    And last summer's thread you see that more people have changed their minds. And the notable thing about that thread in particular, is that many of the people opposed... have transferred or copied to Chaos already. People have recognized that Order isn't exactly a viable option to play on anymore unless you like single-player and the occasional small group.
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  2. #22

    Default Re: Server Merge

    Quote Originally Posted by Romirez View Post
    the only reason this is happening is because of the copy token, and the players calling for a merge were calling for a merge previously.

    having said that, i live on Order, and have a lair inside Dralk itself. been on Order for 11 years, i am Anti-merge. once games start merging servers, it's the death-knell. just look at Navyfield.

    so having said that, what's to stop players from swapping between order and chaos now that they copied?
    -As far as i'm aware many players discussed totally transferring to chaos from order until the copy token came out allowing them to have characters on both shards.
    Additionally, many people completely left the game or left to chaos before copy tokens came out due its low population. This is not the copy token's fault. Even if the copy token did not come out order would have continued to die.

    -Lots of minds have changed in recent times. The people who called for a merge before still want a merge, now more people support it - as mentioned by Mach.

    -Many games have merged servers to prevent death or increase players fun, depending on the state of the game. Guild Wars 2 for example i think merged servers to help the game? I'm sure others can better describe that front.

    -Most people don't want to play on an empty server, and so most who copy come on only when asked to log in.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Server Merge

    Since you are beating a dead horse...
    Again....

    If you want me to agree with a merge, this is the completely wrong way of going about doing it.

    Is it selfish to say that I dont want to give up what i pay for willingly and without a small chance to get that same thing back? no. I pay for what i have and what i enjoy. You do not pay for my account or what is on it, or what i have, or what my gaming experience is or isn't.

    Do you have a right to call me a 'ghost player' and insult me and any other player who plays on order as a prime server when you aren't on the server playing it as a prime server? You do not.

    The answer is no for now from me. Especially seeing some of the rather venomous responses for those daring to have another point of view that disagrees with a merge and explaining that view point. There exists the copy tokens and transfer tokens. There is no need for a merge for those that do not want it. There are so many things that put me against this idea at the moment and for now, that I don't know where to start.

    Last time people complained of merge, we got copy tokens. It was a fair trade and a great answer of balance between those who wanted a merge and more population around them and those who had made it clear we were against such because we had plots, guilds, and many other things that we didn't want to lose because of the years of hard work, time and effort put into them, which a merge would have utterly destroyed by having it forcefully taken away with nothing substantial in return. Its not just about the novians or the ability/inability to transfer to other servers.

    Settled you'd think, with the copy tokens. To find that there are people who still want to push for more, after getting some way to have what they wanted which they agreed to being great and good enough, left me feeling really depressed and angry.

    Order is 'empty' and its 'dying', in your eyes but there are those of us still on order who find that we are okay with the situation and lack of population and way of playing. There are those people who have inactive accounts who still pay for their plots because they really like that space they have. Now if i'm not mistaken a majority of those who are complaining have copied or transferred to chaos? So what is the problem they have then? They have access to a more populated server like they wanted and have been choosing to play there and that's ok. Some have even chosen to move their guilds there and that's fantastic! But why are some of those that copied or transferred to chaos trying to force the rest of us who chose not to and didn't conform and do the same to forcefully give up what we have and are happy with? We pay for the enjoyment of our game too and stating that order should give up everything, and quite vehemently by the responses, where chaos gives up nothing is completely unjustified and reeks of trying to cause division, existent underlying drama that is not related to enforcing a merge on the resident players of order, and causing a long term bitterness in the community.

    It is stating to a group of players that their time put forth, effort, guilds, hard work, history, and even their enjoyment of the game is worth less than than that of another group. It is saying to the players of order who have that as their prime server of play, that your desires are foremost and we can go heck.

    It lacks of respect to those that have order as their prime server of play by those who have made the choice to go to chaos and have that become their prime server of play. They are for all intents then chaos player, and that's ok. I don't judge and i don't mind and i don't care, I've thought of copying myself, but don't complain about the server I play on when you aren't playing it as a prime server or made a choice which created and exacerbates the very problem you are complaining about.

    I can see why people who do play order as a prime server would want a merge, and given the right circumstances I could agree to it, but it has to be done right. There is no answer that will satisfy people that won't anger players and cause a mass exodus from game, having any merged server ending up like order is at present ultimately. Any merge would have to be an entirely new server, clean, and squeaky to be right. However, I am under little illusion that the OP's post and the way in which they want it done means those of us on order would get royally screwed over, and oh well! It is made it quite clear in the OPs post that the players left on order would be the only ones to give up their plots and guilds and hard work and efforts and time put into in a game that they pay for and for plots at the locations that they want which they pay for... and chaos would not suffer in like and allow a chance for those of us losing those plots equal chance to regain them again.

    You can give all the novians back you want, you can give all the free transfers you want, but you can't replace the plots we players on order have chosen or those of our guild communities, let alone our guilds themselves. Some of which have been owned for years and years and years. Some of which have histories or memorials attached to them which would be lost in a merge.

    I pay £14 every month for every sub I have that has the lair and plots I have and I pay that for those alone. For the lair, its very special to me. I worked hard for that bugger, a couple years to find just the right spot, and wait for it to open, and i've put 8+ years of work into that sucker! I'd be giving up so much of myself and the work and effort I've put in for 10+ years to lair, guild, and community. Novians won't replace that time and effort factor or the memories and background associated with that which you are demanding I be forced to give up or beaten into submission to accept just so you can have a free transfer of all your characters enmass to the server where you chose to make your new prime server to play on. I'm not judging that decision but don't come demanding I give up everything because I chose not to come play with your new train set.

    But of course I appear in a lose lose situation. I have people telling me that my money is worth less than theirs and that I am selfish because I refuse to lay down and be forced to give my hard work, effort, and time up in such a way that I know I can't possibly have a chance at regaining that exact same thing back again, while they walk away with the jackpot rather than reciprocate.

    Let me explain. I have had discussions before with a few players who play chaos or both servers, and every time the topic of merge comes up in ista chat we have this same discussion. I doubt that if asked, any chaos players who play that as their prime server would agree to give up their plots, and time sink, and hard work equally so there could be a fair merge where everyone has the chance to gain what they lost and things aren't purely one sided. The few I have spoken to on chaos are ok with those on order losing all their hard work and years of efforts but they do not want to lose equally to meet on the middle ground for this to happen or accept that some equal sacrifice in return has to happen.

    And that's just not right to ask someone else to give up all their work to get nothing in return, for something that they pay for just so you can have what you want without any like sacrifice in reverse. Explain to me why I should be bullied or forced into giving up anything like my plots, or lairs, or guild, or anything that I've worked very hard on in effort and time sink over 10+ years because a handful of people who don't want to use the copy and transfer tokens, or don't want to lose their hard work and effort along with me so we can all rebuild equally in return?

    Want to use the word selfish? Okay. The above is selfish. Some of the responses I've read in this thread already and the disrespect and attacks towards order players are selfish and disrespectful. Those complaining that order is empty are asking others to sacrifice where they will not and that's selfish.

    By asking for a merge rather than paying for a transfer or copy token, they are asking for a free transfer of all (the rest of) their established characters, where as others paid for that. I find that disgusting given the amount of players who have paid for their transfers and copies and how unfair that is upon them. Some won't care but some will. Maybe it makes the ones asking for free transfers of all their established characters feel better in that doing it this way, then they don't have to be labeled as 'traitors' by some, which I know has been an underlying issue, however its not right asking other people to make sacrifices where they themselves won't or do not want to. Even if that sacrifice is in the pocket book. My pocket book just happens to be my plots and my guild. Demanding that I sacrifice my pocket book for yours while yours stays untouched is about as selfish and disrespectful as it gets.

    Let's say a merge happens.... Alright, these small handful get a free copy onto a new sever with everyone else like they want. Then what? Besides having angry players that lost everything they had for only novians in return (I don't count the free transfers of all characters because the impression I am left with from conversations with others about this, is that is exactly why merge is being asked for) What about all those who paid for copy or transfer tokens recently? Would they feel angry or upset? Do you think they might feel scammed or cheated? Just because one person and their friends are ok with this situation does not mean others will be. Do you think VI would refund those payments for those copy tokens and transfers since the copy system came out? I highly doubt it, and I don't even think that is a possibility for VI to do. Do you think those who copied and transferred in that time would consider not supporting this game anymore if that were the case? Do you think they would stick around long feeling cheated out of their wallets like that?

    I know that I would be angry if I was one of these people, and if I was in their position to be told the service I paid for is now moot or free. I couldn't blame anyone in that situation for feeling scammed. These are certainly things that I would be questioning myself. A merge is free, a transfer or copy is not.

    I get that those who have been complaining don't like order being empty but they can't or won't pay for the copy or transfer like the rest of us have. But a great many complaining are also currently playing on chaos as a prime server and are the reason order is 'empty' now and in the state it is in. They made that choice and that is ok. I'm ok with that. They pay for their game and can choose to do that, but don't do that and then complain that the server you left is 'empty' and 'dying' and ask me or any other player who plays on order as our prime server to give everything up and be forced to sacrifice everything we have built over the years to come join you. We chose not to make that choice. That is our right.

    Neither will they accept the free option that is available of creating a new character on chaos and working that up again. They all agreed that copy tokens were a great answer, but now that they have that, they are pushing it back to the original plan of merging the servers again. Its like the gold rage change all over again. Push a bit, get some leeway and make an agreement. And since they got that, push some more to aim it back at the original goal of what they wanted regardless of anyone that might disagree. In gold rage's case, it was no gold rage change. In this case, its merging the servers.

    I understand the need for a merge by some, and i'd agree to it, IF it could be done in a way that was fair for all, done like it was done way back, when everyone lost everything. In the last merge, EVERYONE lost their plots and hard work. Everything had to be rebuilt. People who owned plots were given bidding tokens and got first pick at bidding on plots before people who didn't have one could do so. That was fair. No one's pocket book or money or desires was treated as more than another players. Everyone lost, everyone restarted, everyone rebuilt together. No one was given special treatment, there was no favoritism shown. All in all, I think that having to rebuild and start from scratch for everyone made a stronger community out of separate communities that were quite competitive or had issues with one another.

    That is the fairest and best way to do a merge, but I can't see chaos' community agreeing to it and responses have said as much. With about as much in attacks and disrespect to order players as there could be with it. It would cause so many to quit again, defeating the purpose of a merge. Favor asking those with plots an ties on order to give up their efforts and work for nothing equal or sizable in return and it would cause them to quit. This includes those who have copies on chaos but whose plots and work on order where they want them. And a merge at all, could irritate and cause an exodus from the game of those who have bought transfer or copy tokens over the last few months. The latter could possibly even lead to legal issues which wouldn't be good for the game or its community at all!

    In all the chats I've read, responses here and private conversations I've had, it just seems like some of those people who are complaining probably just want all their characters moved to chaos for free without having to pay for it themselves. That and I'm aware some who are crying for merge may also be doing it because they are hurt or angry due to unresolved issues with some of the people on order, which means this goes beyond it being purely about merge because of order 'dying' or being 'empty.' Its just not being said openly and honestly, which is the main reason I have remained against a merge for so long and closed off from public eye of the community. It shows in the conversations I've had and it shows in the responses here that i've read so far from those I know got copies or transfer tokens against those that didn't copy or transfer over to call chaos our new home with you. The kind of envenomed responses I've read means that for now I don't want to be on the same server together if that's the kind of community you want me to merge into where anyone who disagrees is insulted or bullied or forced into silence and being given a choice of two things: Paying monthly to be bulldozed into an unenjoyable experience or being told and pushed towards leaving the game that i've enjoyed since it was opened.

    I could say at this point, the problem isn't with order. Not solely. A merge is not going to solve the problem.


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  4. #24

    Default Re: Server Merge

    another issue is constant away characters and their plots, like Runos for example. Runos has a plot inside dralk, nearly complete with full compliment of T6 machines.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Server Merge

    Woah quite the text wall there...
    Quote Originally Posted by Arzel Rashemi View Post
    Do you have a right to call me a 'ghost player' and insult me and any other player who plays on order as a prime server when you aren't on the server playing it as a prime server? You do not.
    Nobody's directly attacking you here, there were general statements made, and if you applied them to yourself, that's not our fault. What I meant by "ghost" players is someone who owns a plot, but never logs in. That's not an insult, that's just what the community sees "I see X owns the plot at Nuthala but I've never seen them."

    Quote Originally Posted by Arzel Rashemi View Post
    The answer is no for now from me. Especially seeing some of the rather venomous responses for those daring to have another point of view that disagrees with a merge and explaining that view point.
    Venomous? What here has been venomous? I've seen statements of how Order is right now, a desire to not see the shard hold the game back, and concern for the experience of new and returning players and how that affects how long they play and pay for the game from the people for a merge.

    For those who have copied or transferred, that solved their problem. The issue isn't us though, it's how an empty shard drives away new and returning players who don't go to check chaos and it doesn't solve the problem for people who want to move but can't afford to copy or transfer all their characters.

    Yes, Order is empty and dying in our eyes because we've seen it decline so dramatically over the years, from 40 players average to 30 to 20 to 15 to FIVE average. It's empty because you can travel to 99% of the world and not see another soul unless you have a group together already.

    Selfish being used at all on this thread is childish, and certainly isn't applicable in any way it's been used. People here want a merge for the GREATER GOOD OF THE GAME, people want to keep what's theirs. Neither is selfish so let's drop that childish point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arzel Rashemi View Post
    By asking for a merge rather than paying for a transfer or copy token, they are asking for a free transfer of all (the rest of) their established characters, where as others paid for that. I find that disgusting given the amount of players who have paid for their transfers and copies and how unfair that is upon them. [...] Demanding that I sacrifice my pocket book for yours while yours stays untouched is about as selfish and disrespectful as it gets.[...]In all the chats I've read, responses here and private conversations I've had, it just seems like some of those people who are complaining probably just want all their characters moved to chaos for free without having to pay for it themselves.
    Err...? Who here was suggesting a merge just to get all their characters transferred? That's most certainly not a reason why people are asking, but I'll take that insult from you without complaint and leave it at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arzel Rashemi View Post
    Let's say a merge happens.... What about all those who paid for copy or transfer tokens recently? Would they feel angry or upset? Do you think they might feel scammed or cheated?
    None of the people I've talked to who have copied or transferred and are for the merge are upset, or else they wouldn't be suggesting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arzel Rashemi View Post
    But a great many complaining are also currently playing on chaos as a prime server and are the reason order is 'empty' now and in the state it is in.
    It was empty and dying before we copied/transferred out. This is also WHY people copied/transferred out. This further decline in population is just an intensification of what's been felt for a long time now, and the main concern here is the effect an empty shard has on new and returning players - namely that they don't stay and returning players might just quit for good if they've been owning a plot before they checked back in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arzel Rashemi View Post
    The kind of envenomed responses I've read means that for now I don't want to be on the same server together if that's the kind of community you want me to merge into where anyone who disagrees is insulted or bullied or forced into silence
    Again, no attacks have been made, nobody is bullying you or forcing you into silence, you quite happily posted a text wall to prove that. This is a civil discussion, and let's keep it that way.
    Last edited by Machaeon; April 23rd, 2017 at 11:14 PM. Reason: clarity/spacing
    Ordinis est mortuus
    Istara's Chosen Guildmaster
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  6. #26

    Default Re: Server Merge

    I'd like to add my own opinion here.

    First, I'd like to comment about the hostility. Please, mirroring what Machaeon said, let's keep this civil. Attacks are not needed. Let's discuss, not ridicule, bash, or otherwise attack those that are participating.

    Now, on to what I must address as this progresses (as I hope the discussion will progress without further hostility). The community remaining on Order suffers from a lack of general interaction. We lose our sense of what drew a great deal of us to the game in the first place. We're community oriented. Without a community, we lose the fundamental foundation of which Istaria is built upon. Our world, as a collective of players that support the game through our subscriptions, is threatened by the lack of community and detrimental decline of our population.

    Originally, I was against the merge. I will not hide the fact that I, as a loyal player from nearly the beginning of Horizons, was astounded that we were going to consider another merge. This was before double experience ended. Prior to the end of what drew dozens of players back, we had a constant 50+ online at all times. The chats were active, the world was active, the dynamic hunts lead by our wonderful dev, Sarsilas, were active. Now, we find ourselves in a position of which we are continuously losing the population through transfers or subscription drops.

    I considered this, personally. I took an objective approach and weighed the loss of the players that have been utterly loyal to the game for years; plots consistently found throughout the world. I felt that it wasn't possible, at first, for us to outweigh the loss of those players vs. the loss of active players. It was an obvious choice, at the time. Now, it's not.

    Later, I began asking new players how they've felt about the game when they joined Order. I always got the response, or something similar to it: "It doesn't feel like anyone is playing." or "Where is everyone?" I wanted those players to stick around, but many simply left. We lost those players. We lost individuals that could have joined our pleasant community due to the population. They didn't consider Chaos, because all of their work was on Order. They simply dropped the game. $9.95-$14.95 USD potentially lost, because of the disintegrating population.

    Our game and our world is threatened by this. Others may not see it this way, and I certainly wish there was another option at this point aside from permanent double experience (which would be a little silly), to bring Order back to where it was. Our choice matters and it's a choice between holding on to the game we love and those within, or letting Order decay to the point where the world become an empty shell. This is where we're slowly declining to. I can't say that I would ever enjoy seeing something like that happen to that beloved world of ours.

    And please, if you see this, don't tl;dr this post. Read it through. I certainly hope everyone will.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Server Merge

    Later, I began asking new players how they've felt about the game when they joined Order. I always got the response, or something similar to it: "It doesn't feel like anyone is playing." or "Where is everyone?" I wanted those players to stick around, but many simply left. We lost those players. We lost individuals that could have joined our pleasant community due to the population. They didn't consider Chaos, because all of their work was on Order. They simply dropped the game. $9.95-$14.95 USD potentially lost, because of the disintegrating population.
    This is very well said, and shows what this post was all about. It was never meant to be an attack or anything of the like. I think your post was very well thought out, Stars.
    "Normality is a paved road. It's comfortable to walk on, but no flowers grow on it." - Vincent Van Gogh

  8. #28

    Default Re: Server Merge

    I agree that Starstilanx post was nice. It details the problem new and returning players are facing.

    To give some personal insight about my experience in the last two months. My group of friends have either quit or moved on, playing on Chaos. Some quit because they did not want to spam alternative chats to complete their AROP; they did not want to wait days for the right crafter to log on to produce the right item. (I think we all appreciate the chaos players who are willing to log over to lend a hand, but it's not the same as a self-sustainable server.) Purchasing a character transfer token, or even a copy token, is not feasible for everyone. It's expensive and it adds up, leaving the potential chance that precious characters with attached memories are left behind. I still understand and emphasize with the lair situation. I wish there was a better option, but other than my suggestion down below, I can't honestly think of a better one. We will either lose money from people losing their plots, or we will lose money from people losing hope in Order's population.

    Much like Stars, I was in the same boat about order merging. I have been playing on Order for 12 years now; I grew up in the game, starting in middle school and all the way through college. When things got rough, the order community always had a way of easing the real life frustration. Even with those memories, I think a change should still happen. It might not be fun, or pleasant. It might be frustrating feeling out a new place, but I think it would get better for people. New adventures always yield new memories, and those memories can be good ones. Even with all my memories, my fun, the time spent on the server, I am willing to give something else a try.

    And please, if you see this, don't tl;dr this post. Read it through. I certainly hope everyone will.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Server Merge

    I'm pro-merge, though this does probably mean the inevitable loss of my new lair, which I love. It's a hard thing but I do feel like taking some action to counter the decline of Order is in the game's best interests. The biggest issue, as we've all said, is the plot situation, and it's no easy fix!

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    I would think that the most fair way to merge plots would be seniority. If an Order player owned a plot for six years and a Chaos player has only owned it for six months, the Order player would assume ownership after the merge and the Chaos player would receive full Novians and coin refund.
    While this would possibly solve the issue for a lot of the long-term inactive plot holders, it has problems in and of itself that can potentially make it unfair. Say, you're a player on Chaos and you finally saved up enough money to snag that fancy lair with the waterfall! You plan it out, get it perfect and begin to build it. You get partway done andddd... the merge hits, and the inactive plot holder who's owned your lair on Order for the last 5 years immediately claims ownership. Sure, they haven't logged on in 3 years, but they win the seniority matchup. Screw you, active player who was enjoying your new lair, this guy who's still not logging in has it now. You have to admit, if this situation occurred it'd be upsetting.

    That said, obviously it's a constructed worst-case-scenario, but it's a possibility that'd need to be considered with the system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calyndrell View Post
    The only way it would be close to fair is if it was handled like in the old merge everyone who has a plot confliction loses their plot/lair and then it goes to auction.
    This is another method I think sounds good at first but then I think... this really isn't a full on server merge so much as it is Chaos absorbing Order. I don't think Chaos players should be disturbed or uprooted by the merge, or if they are it should be kept to a minimum. It sorta feels like it'd be uprooting and upsetting them; it's not their fault Order is the way it is, their server is fine, but they're sort of being unnecessarily punished for it. Just how I feel on it, anyway, honestly!

    Quote Originally Posted by Serieth View Post
    Though, I think there's a better solution to this, and that's to leave order up and give free character transfers to chaos with 100% novians and a free plot/lair. It would give order players the choice about what they want to do: stay behind or move on...<snip>...on order; change the 'good' to 'low-populated'.
    I like this suggestion. It seems to be the best of both worlds, really. For the players who already paid to essentially transfer, maybe a nice compensation of a bit of free game time or loyalty rewards could be in order, just so that they don't feel like they were jipped.

    As for Order's status on the server listing, I'd definitely say add the warning about the population. I'd also kinda say remove it's role-play tag from the listing itself - maybe add a bit of functionality that allows you to click a server and get a little more info on it in a separate box somewhere. Add the roleplay info in there. The reason for this is new players into roleplay will likely still go to the roleplay server thinking that's the only place such activity is allowed, when really if we're trying to get people to collect together we want them to join roleplay groups on Chaos. Could also add a specific recommendation for new players to go to Chaos through the same means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arzel Rashemi View Post
    Do you have a right to call me a 'ghost player' and insult me and any other player who plays on order as a prime server when you aren't on the server playing it as a prime server? You do not.
    He wasn't insulting you, it's just a term for inactive plot holders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arzel Rashemi View Post
    it just seems like some of those people who are complaining probably just want all their characters moved to chaos for free without having to pay for it themselves
    Well honestly, I'm of the opinion that if you want to transfer for reasons like you dislike X group or you want to play with Y group on Chaos, by all means, you should pay. Under normal circumstances, if both servers had healthy and equal populations I'd say absolutely, make it a paid feature. Other MMOs do and it's fine. Now, though? When Order is so small it honestly struggles to do any end game content, or you log on and have no one to talk to, or you need a specific item for a quest and there isn't a single person who's logged on in the last several days capable of making it? This isn't the game as it's intended. This is the point where I say yes - transfers should absolutely be free, and encouraged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arzel Rashemi View Post
    I'm aware some who are crying for merge may also be doing it because they are hurt or angry due to unresolved issues with some of the people on order, which means this goes beyond it being purely about merge because of order 'dying' or being 'empty.'
    You're belittling the reasoning of everyone here by describing them as 'crying' and declaring them to just be motivated by personal drama. There's definitely going to be people who take issue with each other, and it goes both ways - I know people who are anti-merge because they dislike players on Chaos, too. At the end of the day, it's going to be a tiny minority and this doesn't move towards the larger issues listed in the original post.

    -----------------------------------------------------

    In summary, I'd suggest:

    For a merge:

    - Offer 100% novians, coin refund and first pick to plot holders losing their plots in the merge
    - Plots owned on Order which are unowned on Chaos default to their Order owners upon merge
    - Plots with no structures on Chaos that have had the same owner for 3 months or longer default to Order owners upon merge, granting cash refunds to their Chaos owners (bit controversial, I know, lemme know what you think)
    - Compensation for those who bought character tokens, with either game time or loyalty rewards

    For a migration:

    - Free transfers from Order to Chaos with 100% novians (this would be a limited time thing, and no going back to Order for free. It'd be up to the devs if they wanted to make this an actual transfer or a copy like the copy tokens)
    - Perhaps some compensation for those who've bought tokens, maybe a month of free game time or loyalty rewards
    - Changing Order's population status to accurately represent the population
    - Remove the roleplay tag from Order's display and move it into an additional info box
    - Add recommendation for Chaos

    I think that's everything. Lemme know if I missed something.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Server Merge

    I'd like to add a lil bit myself. I've played on Order since early 2008 (though had some breaks for school and personal reasons). Of all the MMOs I've tried this is the one I always come back to. To be super honest it's not the game at all that keeps me coming back (yall know how much I complain lmao, still salty about clerics not getting +10 to armor skill per level xD), but it's the people and the RP that I really enjoyed. If there's no one on to talk to or RP with then I'm not having a good time. Sometimes I'll try to start an RP, just throw something out in a channel only to be met with silence. I've left the game for months/years at a time because of this.

    What's the point of having a really awesome lair, or guild you spent ages getting together if no one else is around to enjoy it? I just finished Azayan's guild lair, but I have to wonder if all the work that I and others spent on it was even worth it if it'll never be used. Or RPed in, or anything. That's why I dumped Thelras/Osiron's lair, because it was supposed to be another RP location, but no RP was going on at the time. With the surge from double xp this past winter I thought to give it another shot, but looks like it'll be another ghost town. It makes me super sad to log in and see no one else around or, if there are a handful of people, they're AFK because nothing's going on.

    Of course that leaves the option of transferring/copying to Chaos. But I really don't want to spend EXTRA money just to be around people on a game I already pay for. But.... I guess if push comes to shove I will. I can't drag everyone back here. I know for a fact that Order will never have the same number of people like it did the first few years I played. Won't have the same feel, not if everyone quits or transfers. Sure you'll have the people who copy who will spend time on both, but I know for a fact that I can't split focus like that. If more is happening in one place why would I go to the other? Not only that, with copies, I may not have enough room for everyone anyway.

    And to the people who are against losing their plots because of the time and money spent on it, I totally get it. Honest I do. But you have to figure out what's most important to you. To me it's actually being able to RP and have fun. Can't do that if I'm by myself. Or surrounded by people who do not RP. Well, I guess I could RP with myself, dual log y'know, but I'm not THAT desperate!

    If I could have things MY way, I'd opt for instanced servers, or whatever you want to call it, but if the game can't support that then it is what is is. Compromises will have to be made. Some will lose more than others, some will not be affected. Some will be okay, some will be upset. No solution will be perfect. Nothing is perfect, we just have to adapt. But I'm speaking as someone with relatively little to lose ;P
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  11. #31

    Default Re: Server Merge

    so, lets see: What do we have

    1.- those who want to stay
    2.- those who do not want want to stay
    3. -those who already left
    4. -those in-between (copies^^)
    5.- those who want it all

    All with their own very personal reasons.
    Lots of ideas
    Some unrealistic suggestions for a solution.

    1. I read you, hearts of Order (each word^^)
    And I respect your decision. And I understand.
    Live that lonely life on Order then (and this is my opinion )- take good care of it, watch over the
    possesings of generous players- who keep up subs to make life easier (eg Garfonso in Bris: T6 consi).
    its a no go to close a shard and take away what they are paying for- while they are sleeping.

    Tell new and returning players why you are still here- and what options they have.
    (and yes- change the population indicator to something approppriate and honest)

    2. You want to leave? So do so. If you pay for it or not (VI can perhaps affort to make an offer for the 5-? players who want to leave and do not have the money for transfer token)- if its not possible to transfer for free-consider it a donation to the game. You emphasize all is for the sake for the game..so..

    3. We left. We knew what about the consequences. We payed- we gave up 130/130 plots. 120/120 plots. Guild plots, beloved settlements..unique lairs. our guilds.. lots of our friends. We are still alive and kicking. We still pay and play. We still have fun.
    its Chaos.. its not Order..

    4. Cant say much about them.. not quite understand why they support the idea of a merge so passionate.
    Why force players into a merge which is not mandatory? People who are dissatisfied with the situation of Order alreay have choices- is it only a question of money?And the threat that things have to be rebuild? (if all wents good with 100 % of novians)?

    Fact is- noone can talk for the sleepers- and as far as I understand its not easy or economical to expropriate plot/lairowners that are still paying- no matter if plot/lair is build up or not. Some bought plots and planned to build them up when they are retired^^.

    5. No comment on that

    So maybe we can figure out/sum up here if a merge is mandatory
    and why
    and why not
    without emotions, speculations and things we do not know about (costs eg,legal situation aso)
    but clear reasoning ( datas eg)
    to give VI something at hand they can work with

    thy for reading
    (just to make it clear: This above is my opinion- not a contribution to a new discussion that I suggested in my last passage)
    Last edited by LOVWYRM; April 24th, 2017 at 09:49 AM.
    YOU told me to play a dragon! [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Server Merge

    Quote Originally Posted by LOVWYRM View Post
    You want to leave? So do so. If you pay for it or not (VI can perhaps affort to make an offer for the 5-? players who want to leave and do not have the money for transfer token)- if its not possible to transfer for free-consider it a donation to the game. You emphasize all is for the sake for the game..so..
    VI, by all rights, should make it free, at this point. Other MMOs often offer this service for free when similar situations occur. But as it is, a lot of people just straight up can't afford to move characters. For a person who wants a full migration, $99.95 is VERY steep.

    But it is not a donation. If VI actually wanted to make transfers donation-based, I'd say it'd be a fine idea and I'd donate. But this is basically mandatory in order to play the game's content, at this point. You're paying to play the game you're paying for already.

    Quote Originally Posted by LOVWYRM View Post
    People who are dissatisfied with the situation of Order alreay have choices- is it only a question of money?And the threat that things have to be rebuild? (if all wents good with 100 % of novians)?
    We can't deny the damage Order is doing to the game as a whole. It's not just about money or novians. It's about being unable to perform content, having no one around, and people becoming so lonely they actually quit. It's happened, it's still happening.

    When you're alone in a ghost town and you can't progress your quests or do the content you want to do, and having no one to speak to makes everything feel that much grinder, trust me - other MMOs with their bustling cities and booming economies begin to look really appealing. That's ultimately what's happening. And that $99.95 you'd pay to transfer could buy you two or three shiny new populated MMOs and you'd have change left over.

    And to add to things, there are hidden advantages people aren't really thinking about with the merge idea. For roleplay, you now have a much bigger pool of players to interact with, and that'll enrich the roleplaying experience. The economy/connie stock will be vastly improved with more players. Having one server instead of two means that server gets two event devs, too - can you imagine how great that would be? And as an Order player, I'd actually get to take part in more events. I only really saw one raid before the population became too small to perform them, but it was some of the most fun I've had in ages. It'd benefit levelling, too - in an ideal world, more players holding more plots means more crafting stations, which is always a good thing.

    People are so worried about what they might lose, they don't realise all the things they stand to gain.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Server Merge

    I love all the straw man arguments I am hearing. Not a single person answered Arzels points they just defended with "it's not an attack" or whatever.

    ALSO mach soo your entire guild supports a merge. ITS A CHAOS GUILD of course it does. Would it be so willing to support it if they stood to lose their plots? Probably not.

    And.. I don't necessarily buy that order damages the whole game... we still support and pay for it. This merge goes ahead and the number of subs will definitely drop.. I doubt the number of "potential" newbies would EVER balance the scale and how many of them will stay subbed for the next 2 3 or even 5 years....i know of several long term vets that WILL CLOSE their accounts if they lose their lair.
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  14. #34

    Default Re: Server Merge

    My answer to a merge is this. I pay to have a plot only not for being a dragon or gnome. If I lose my plot, I quit paying. Simple as that. I do not care if I play with anyone else but it is nice when it happens. Slimey on Order.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Server Merge

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    I would think that the most fair way to merge plots would be seniority. If an Order player owned a plot for six years and a Chaos player has only owned it for six months, the Order player would assume ownership after the merge and the Chaos player would receive full Novians and coin refund. Obviously someone is still losing their location, but that's going to happen with a sever merge no matter what.

    I don't like the idea of an auction because Istaria's in-game economy is not functional. In-game currency means very little. What matters, in my opinion, is the real money that people pay to make sure they hold on to their plots, and many of us have been dutifully paying our subs for literal years to hold land that we have, well, years of attachment to.
    Sorry but I have to disagree with you on the Seniority part. That statement puts me in mind of a company with Union employees where you have Seniority rights. This is a MMO game and each paying customer have the right to buy any plot and hold on to it as long as they so chose to pay. So what you are saying is a paying customer who has been in the game and on Order shard for 9 years has the right to take over a plot that belongs to a player on Chaos who has been there for 8.5 years...Seniority rules! That would cause many paying customers to leave for sure. Not a wise decision in my opinion.

    If the Devs claim that it don't cost much if anything to keep up the Order shard then we should leave it alone. I have moved my main characters to Chaos because I wanted to be around a larger volume of players. I left some awesome friends and a great Guild(Scions) on the Order shard in my decision to transfer but if they want to stay then so be it.
    If you don't like the low population of Order then move to Chaos. enough said!

    cheers

  16. #36

    Default Re: Server Merge

    Quote Originally Posted by Galdethriel View Post
    a lot of people just straight up can't afford to move characters. For a person who wants a full migration, $99.95 is VERY steep.
    I don't think anyone is forcing them to pay that. No one is forcing them to fork out the full price to bring all their characters and alts across to the other server. That is their decision and choice to want that. They put the full migration price of 99.95 on there because that is what they want. They don't need that. They could just choose a few of the most precious characters to bring across based on what they can afford and archive the others. They can't go asking or demanding that other players sacrifice the subscription locked content which those other players pay for just for their own wants and desires.

    Other MMO's might have free transfers in instances like this where a server is empty, I have never seen it myself, but all those other shiny new MMO's also make their income from more than just subscriptions to keep those games running and turn out new content. If a person can't afford their subscriptions, the DLC, or the items the MMO has in shops or the services it has available for sale then that person is just out of luck for not having the available free income in their personal budget. If this is a reason for order to get subsumed into chaos as is being suggested, then the reasons are not based in data that is helpful to everyone in the community. Not having enough in the budget for pay-locked content and services is more of a private problem than a problem of the game or its community. Those people should not expect to spend someone else's money other than their own. This includes telling others what they need to sacrifice when they have paid for their own subscription locked content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galdethriel View Post
    But it is not a donation. If VI actually wanted to make transfers donation-based, I'd say it'd be a fine idea and I'd donate.
    If VI wants to open up donation or gift based transfers, I'd say go for it. That way others are volunteering towards it which is much more amicable, than being forced. And it opens up gift ideas for birthdays and holidays.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galdethriel View Post
    But this is basically mandatory in order to play the game's content, at this point. You're paying to play the game you're paying for already.
    Except free transfers are not mandatory in this case as I stated above. That person has chosen to make it mandatory based on what they want rather than what they can afford, and has asked others to sacrifice some of their money they spent in their pay-locked content and subscriptions for that personal want. The game's content is just as easily open by making a brand new character and playing through it. Which is actually a lot of fun because of all the new content or the content that player may have missed. Or just taking one or two characters over that you know can do the content.


    Quote Originally Posted by Galdethriel View Post
    We can't deny the damage Order is doing to the game as a whole. It's not just about money or novians. It's about being unable to perform content, having no one around, and people becoming so lonely they actually quit. It's happened, it's still happening.
    Is it? Where is the actual physically visible data for this to prove it is an irrefutable statement?

    It isn't just about content either. There are a couple memorial plots which are important to order that would be utterly lost if order got subsumed into chaos. The same with a statue in a certain guild community. You have guilds that built entire communities for themselves and for the larger community as a whole to use. Those novians would go back to those inactive but subbed guild members. The active guild members would lose access to those resources for rebuilding important machines and storage for their use, without hard effort and time put forth again for that loss.

    For some the issue of content may be the problem, but as been pointed out there are options available to those who want this sort of experience or want access to this content. No one can talk for others because not everyone is going to agree with this statement and it isn't our place to assume their consensus is guaranteed. Regardless of how many others may agree, it is not everyone.

    People quit for a number of reasons, and to say that this issue is only limited to one server is not necessarily accurate. It is more prevalent when you see players leave a low population server because the impact is more apparent. In some cases, these people already going to quit or their attention to the game was not fully there and they just weren't held in interest to the game enough to stay long term. Other people commonly bounce between games and can't stay in one game for long, or they have a rotation of games they bounce between. This is probably the most common thing I have seen happen. You get players and friends who join in GW2 for instance and the next month they may be bored and move on to ESO, a month or two later and they have moved back to Istaria, only to move on to the next game that they like. And those left who aren't so mobile with their gaming habits, eventually quit because of lonliness, even in a really packed server or mmo. Their friends just aren't there. Its not the same when you game without friends.


    One person says its boredom that people quit from, another says its the poor graphics, another says its the lack of content, another says its something else and so forth. There won't be any solid consensus on the varied reasons people quit or come and go from a game. Again, we can't speak for these players who have quit nor should we simplify the answer down to a couple reasons that we deem valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galdethriel View Post
    When you're alone in a ghost town and you can't progress your quests or do the content you want to do, and having no one to speak to makes everything feel that much grinder, trust me - other MMOs with their bustling cities and booming economies begin to look really appealing. That's ultimately what's happening. And that $99.95 you'd pay to transfer could buy you two or three shiny new populated MMOs and you'd have change left over.
    I am just going to truncate the rest of this so its not too much to quote. It sounds like you'd really benefit from a transfer or copy token to chaos. Even if it was just one character at first. It doesn't sound like you are happy on order, its not your bag. But you might enjoy your game more where you feel comfortable and in a setting that is more to your liking and busier for your available play times?

    That's great if so. I'd advocate doing that. I have had friends and guildmates move themselves over and they seem much happier there now. Its their jive and maybe yours too. I'd never want to force them back to order where they were unhappy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galdethriel View Post
    People are so worried about what they might lose, they don't realise all the things they stand to gain.
    Which is speculation on others who don't agree with this pro merge/order subserviant vision being forced on us. I won't speak for others who have disagreements with this 'merge' but I can speak for myself. I do realize what I stand to lose and gain. This topic has been shoved in my face repeatedly for the last week before it even made it onto these forums as a post. At this point, I feel like I'm proverbially snorting merge dust and can't turn around to just keep it out of my nostrils without sniffling it like some rainbow fairy glitter all over the place, and that's a bit irritating. I'm happy where I am with what I have and won't have, without the need to be forced into what a handful of others believe to be best for my own interests or experience by dictating what I should keep or lose or get as a consolatory gift in their vision of what they think is best for me and my gaming experience. I know my own interests and they do not align with the one way option presented to be forced into for my own benefit.


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  17. #37
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    Default Re: Server Merge

    Quote Originally Posted by Calyndrell View Post
    I love all the straw man arguments I am hearing. Not a single person answered Arzels points they just defended with "it's not an attack" or whatever.

    ALSO mach soo your entire guild supports a merge. ITS A CHAOS GUILD of course it does. Would it be so willing to support it if they stood to lose their plots? Probably not.
    Um... IC is an order guild initially, we own aedan so if the merge happens we'll lose it. We're not free of losses here; we'd suffer too.
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: Server Merge

    Quote Originally Posted by Calyndrell View Post
    I love all the straw man arguments I am hearing. Not a single person answered Arzels points they just defended with "it's not an attack" or whatever.
    Straw man? How can we straw man you while quoting you directly and then responding to the quotes?



    You cannot be straw-manned while we are responding to direct quotes from you, if you feel like we aren't responding to your actual position, the burden is on you to explain it more clearly.

    Galdethriel and I have both taken the time to go through Arzel's main points and offered our response to them. I can't speak for Galdethriel, but if I didn't respond to something, I probably cut it out to be concise or because I didn't feel that the extra bit was relevant to the discussion or didn't need to be covered again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calyndrell View Post
    ALSO mach soo your entire guild supports a merge. ITS A CHAOS GUILD of course it does. Would it be so willing to support it if they stood to lose their plots? Probably not.
    Sorry but no, we're a cross-server guild as long as Order is around (my signature pic has characters from both shards for just that reason). Our activity is lessened on Order due to having nothing to do there unless we start up RP events or epic hunts ourselves, but we still maintain at least a marginal presence there (if not me personally since I'm busy with other things currently). I know Schwarz and Azath are both very good at logging in to both shards simultaneously to keep up with things. I still own a lair on Order for whatever little needs the guild still has there, and that will be lost in a merge. It's not something I'm happy about, but it's a price I'm willing to pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arzel Rashemi View Post
    People quit for a number of reasons, and to say that this issue is only limited to one server is not necessarily accurate. It is more prevalent when you see players leave a low population server because the impact is more apparent.
    Nobody is saying that Order is the only shard losing subs or that low population is the only issue the game has to deal with, that would be ridiculous. But Order is the only shard where people are leaving because of the low population, Order's numbers are now what Blight's numbers were back when I started playing, and I really don't want to see Order go to what Blight's numbers are now... zero.

    Even if it doesn't hit zero, I still don't want new and returning players to get the impression that the game itself is dying... that's quite literally the only reason I'm concerned about this at all. If nobody was poking in to Order that might otherwise stay, I would quite happily just keep on with doing my own thing and not bother worrying about Order.
    Last edited by Machaeon; April 24th, 2017 at 03:28 PM.
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  19. #39

    Default Re: Server Merge

    I'll add my 2c as someone who left Order during its heyday for reasons other than population and then later quit(life and money issues). I've come back a few times in the 7-8 years since, and am considering coming back now; if I were still only on Order and came back now only to see and avg of 5 players on at any time and count it lucky to see 10 I'd most likely consider the game in its death throws and wouldn't likely be re-uping at the end of the month. If anything I'd be surprised to find a game with that low pop still alive a year later.

    There's no easy one-size-fits-all answer to how to deal with plot ownership during a merge, people will quit either way because of it. Allowing free copies/transfers to Chaos certainly helps, as would adding a low population warning next to Order in the launcher but at the same time, at what point does keeping a server that's practically dead worth it? What happens when the pop avg drops down to just 2-3 active people on it? To just one person? I saw someone else mention the that new content wasn't being added/reconsidered simply because Order is too small to be able to do anything with it, that's worrying to me, is it really worth it to keep a small server if its potentially holding back the entire game?
    Is it really worth keeping the server alive for those inactive plot holders who've not been in game sometimes for years? How many of them would really just stop paying? How many of them may actually log in for the first time in years and actually play if the server merged? (Maybe they stopped cause low pop who knows). For returning players and new alike having the ability to transfer/copy characters to Chaos (maybe even for free), is kinda useless if they dont know about it, and with the server being basically dead, no ones around to tell them its available. I have to wonder, how much money would be gained if the first thing new and returning players see is an active server vs what's lost by those who'll leave -weather inactive or currently active - due to merger?


    Despite having left Order I do miss it - or rather what it once was, I do miss the random rp that'd happen in public, and all the friends I had on there, and the gerneral sense of community and closeness. I had thought at one point (a few years ago) that I might transfer back, but as I said earlier, if I came back to find only 5 people on on avg, I wouldnt bother keeping a sub.


    Its nice to want to stay with Order cause you have a plot in a location you like, I can understand that, and potentially loosing that plot would suck majorly, no doubt, it represents tons of time and effort you put into the game and for those who've gone inactive its wonderful of you to continue to support Istaria, but server merges arent always a deathknell for games; Everquest has gone thru several over its 18 years and is still doing good, WoW iirc has had at least a merge or two in its life as well. They can be a good thing, they can revitalize and strengthen the game as people have others to interact with now and content is accessible.

    While the plot situation sucks, at some point a decision does need to be made for the active players benefit; both new and returning players are being turned off by the lack of people on Order, that has to be hurting the game, I can't see how it doesnt. Even those still active on Order are being prevented access from content due to the lack of people, and while many have gone over to Chaos, I imagine many more who can't afford to have also quit. Its hard for me to say that a basically dead server should remain, just because players who dont even play anymore and havent for years and likely wont for years - if ever, stand the chance of loosing their plot (and yes even active players but pretty sure there's more inactive than active on Order now), when when not only potential new/returning players are loosing out by being turned off by the tiny pop, but so are current active players 'cause no one wants to stick around, and some content is now inaccessible as a result.

    Anyways I've rambled enough for one day, time for me to be off, just wanted to share my view as an old old player.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Server Merge

    Quote Originally Posted by Tcei View Post
    I saw someone else mention the that new content wasn't being added/reconsidered simply because Order is too small to be able to do anything with it, that's worrying to me, is it really worth it to keep a small server if its potentially holding back the entire game?
    To clarify, I believe the player meant this as a past comment; there were many things suggested but then shot down in the past because Order was too small to handle it. This was back when Order averaged around 15-20 people.

    Right now, we're recognising that holding off harder content because a smaller server can't handle it is essentially catering to a small sect of the population. So no, Order isn't holding back the game's content anymore; there's likely going to be more content added in the future it can't handle.

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