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Thread: Talk to the Team: Baubles

  1. #1
    Staff :: Developer Sarsilas's Avatar
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    Default Talk to the Team: Baubles

    In the first pass of the bauble changes, we wanted to address the issue of "bauble stacking", or the use of all compatible baubles at once that caused a massive uptick in power of the player. While we enjoyed how effective of a consumable it was, it also made it very hard to gauge endgame balance between a normal player and one that could afford baubles for every big fight. While we know it was useful and fun for players who could afford baubles to stack them, we also didn’t want to create such a power gap between players.

    This lack of conflict also prevented us from introducing any more variety, and left the bauble variations to sit as they were. Adding more in the prior system was effectively just increasing the potential power of a player, rather than giving them more choice and opportunity for their builds.

    We admit that our initial wording caused a lot of confusion, as well. We wanted to introduce a form of choice into which baubles you used - after all, “use everything” was not much of a choice. Therefore, we limited the consumables into three categories, with the hopes that within each category, you would put thought into which baubles you wanted for your character, and which you would end up using per fight or action.

    As of right now, we recognise that some baubles are clearly better than others, leaving no choice in some categories or a debate between two in others. We should have gone through and made sure each bauble was equal in power before introducing the limiting factors, for which we apologise.

    In this next pass, we are hoping to add the promised variation and choice within the baubles. Here are our ideas thus far. These values are listed in Tier 6 and would be decreased to fit tiers below.

    These values are under discussion and are subject to change.

    Offensive
    • Alyssa's Energized State: 120% Outgoing Spell Damage
    • Brobbet's Hand of Justice: 120% Outgoing Melee Damage
    • Galderos’ Tactics: 120% Outgoing Ranged Damage
    • Fury of Daggarth: 110% All Damage
    • Istara's Guiding Hand: 75% Chance - Automatically Hits (Everything)


    Damage Kicker
    • Spectral Touch: 50% Chance on Hit: 25-30 Spirit Damage
    • Flaming Touch: 50% Chance on Hit: 25-30 Flame Damage
    • Freezing Touch: 50% Chance on Hit: 25-30 Ice Damage
    • Electric Touch: 50% Chance on Hit: 25-30 Energy Damage


    Defensive:
    • Holy Armament of Istara: Incoming attacks do 81% of normal damage
    • Mystical Ward: Incoming spells do 81% of normal damage
    • Divine Protection: Reflect 10% of damage to attacker
    • Istara's Breath: Heal for 5% of incoming attack damage


    Utility:
    • Alyssa's Touch: Spell delay -30%
    • Alyssa's Caress: Melee Attacks delay -30%
    • Alyssa's Aim: Ranged Attacks delay -30%
    • Hastened: All delay -20%
    • Istara's Grace: 15% chance:Guaranteed evade of incoming attacks


    Statistic:
    • Daggarth’s Blessing: +100 Strength
    • Alyssa’s Blessing: +100 Power
    • Drulkar’s Scales: +100 Health
    • Daggarth’s Shield: +100 Ethereal Armor


    Crafting:
    • Bullheaded: +5% Physical Craft Skills
    • Quickwit: +5% Mental Craft Skills
    • Keen Eye: +15% Chance for Bonus Materials

    My avatar was drawn by the generous Scaleeth.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Baubles

    [QUOTE=Sarsilas;321917]In the first pass of the bauble changes, we wanted to address the issue of "bauble stacking", or the use of all compatible baubles at once that caused a massive uptick in power of the player. While we enjoyed how effective of a consumable it was, it also made it very hard to gauge endgame balance between a normal player and one that could afford baubles for every big fight. While we know it was useful and fun for players who could afford baubles to stack them, we also didn’t want to create such a power gap between players.

    sad-annoying and a bit confusing

    what is going on here? Is Istaria going to support an outdated or utopian socialism? Or even communism?
    All should be equal and have the same? no one has the right to be better than others or have more-
    no matter how hard the individual worked for it? And what the price is/was?

    Concerning me -I m always broken, cause I love the baubles- if I need more- I need to go out and earn coin.
    And I cannot afford some nice itens and other stuff which is offered in forum.
    BUT THIS IS MY CHOUICE.
    The trend making all and everything equal continues:-(
    It starts with the bi ped schools end ends with dragons.
    So no one is hurt or feels left behind.
    I understand that its important the keep the customers satisfied.
    But strong players worked hard for their status quo. Worked hard to have coin. Worked hard for what they are and can do.
    Its been always one of the strongest advantages of being Istarian , that each character could been set up individually.
    And at no time- not at the beginning nor endgame- there has been a population of clones.
    This is going to fade
    Envy is one of the strongest, frequent and desastrous human emotions.
    Knowing that- I ask if its really good idea to give in to that.

    And- sorry to say so.. that often cited " game balance" often enough made vet players and others leave.

    Pls forgive that I spoke so frankly. And know, that its never my intention to hurt
    others feelings or insult someone. I love Istaria, its players and most of all THE DEVS.

    But I m out of this discussion- I loved baubles - but now(shrugs)

    (and does anybody remember that baubles were meant to be a money sink? That worked!
    now I can safe money- like I did the years before.. what for??)

    .
    Last edited by LOVWYRM; March 6th, 2020 at 05:21 AM.
    YOU told me to play a dragon! [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #3

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Baubles

    Lovwyrm, can you elaborate what exactly is bad about those changes? You seem to mostly have problems with change that already took place, because as I see it this is small buff to baubles that also creates possibility for variety which we do not have now. And they are not going anywhere either so I don't fully understand tone of your post.
    Velthraxazzar - Chaos

  4. #4

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Baubles

    I frankly have never used them because I never had the money to throw away on a temporary buff. Though I can't say that ever made me upset or envious. I really think that players should be able to craft the baubles as scrolls or potions, with each tier corresponding to a crafting tier. That might actually create some form of economy again, because as it stands there isn't much an alchemist or scholar can make that people want or can't just buy somewhere. (Granted I'm not max level and don't know all the recipes, there could be something )

  5. #5

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Baubles

    I might have understood something terribly wrong- then I apologize!!

    As I play both of my drags hybride- one more caster- one more melee- I used several baubles
    at the same time- eg:Alyssa's Energized State plus Brobbet s, mystical ward and divine protection- (besides others which do not conflict)
    As far as I understand- this is not possible anymore. I have no idea when this changes took place- as I returned a few weeks ago from a longer break- and did not try to use the baubles in that way.
    So pls correct me if I m wrong.

    And if my tone was improper: SORRY*bows *
    I allowed myself a verbal dragonbreath

    (and btw- I cited to what I referred to with my post)
    YOU told me to play a dragon! [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #6

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Baubles

    I think many are missing the big picture here. I do not remember these bauble from 9 years ago. Not sure if current owner and dev team implemented them. If they were created from a previous owner, good job fixing them took you long enough. If current team did introduce them, those baubles were the equivalent of leaving a bowl of candy at front door during Halloween. You know people will take handfuls.

    If baubles were never a thing and just introduced, I'd say this is a logical way to organize and use them as stated by Sarsilas.

    So back to the big picture, this game has not changed one bit in the past 9 years. There are some quality of life implementations, but a theme I'm seeing and reading in past rants/suggestions and other threads is when somethings introduced, it gets nerfed later sometimes way later. The only thing I see that's changing is fewer people on my friends list logging on.

    I now know where they have gone reading past threads, they left disappointed, frustrated, marginalized or just ignored. They didn't take a couple months off to cool down, they are gone. Last time posting in profile shows that.

    Now this isn't a rant, so don't lock or move it or if Velea is still here delete it. I'm talking to the team, please think through the new content you introduce in the future with the foresight that it can be misused or exploited. These baubles not included as they are finally fixed. And remember this, there are people in this community who will grab handfuls of candy.

    I'll admit I did, anyone else got the dragonballs?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Baubles

    We should put the answers here- starting with my own- to rants- nevertheless.

    It was not my intention to derail Sars` thread, she deserves answers that are on topic.

    And Chain- sorry I can t agree with much what you ve said. All what is good in this game- every step that brought more content and joy-
    and the fact that it still exsists.-we owe that to our dev team- who never gets tired to keep Istaria a place worth playing and living in!!!
    We do not need to discuss about former owners- this is dead horse and long ago.

    Back to baubles (and some other stuff like potions) I surely take what I can get- and I surely was not overpowered. And it was not an exploit to use them.
    And I HATE it if I get something- and its taken away again or nerfed (if its not a bug- then its ok).
    And would prefer an Istarian society, where we all are somehow unique- cause of what we do and can do- and how we do it.

    And now- maybe see you all in a rant thread-
    Sars is waiting for constructive answers and suggestions for her topic
    Last edited by LOVWYRM; March 6th, 2020 at 03:27 PM.
    YOU told me to play a dragon! [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #8
    Staff :: Developer Sarsilas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Baubles

    The buffs from baubles were originally accessible through random chance using the Trinkets and other drops from monsters - if you may remember, there was the Ethereal Trinkets, Tablets, Charms, and so on. In this system, you could never choose what you got, so it was pretty random.

    A long while ago - I want to say about five years or more, as I was not with the team at the time - the Trinkets and such were changed into purchasable consumable items. This was to let people choose what they wanted and introduce a coin sink at the same time. Initially, the scope was small and only some were available, and many conflicted with each other.

    However, some time after, various more were added without conflicts or even testing to see what sort of power was achievable - this is where the problem was introduced. When you had access to tons and tons of buffs at the touch of your finger with some coin, naturally people are going to eat them up and use them to their full extent. The issue this introduced was that players who used baubles all the time and could afford to stack them constantly were immensely stronger than the counterparts that couldn't use them all at once or did not use them at all. Adding any more without conflict would cause even more power imbalance.

    The issue this presented to us as a team was that we were now facing a dilemma of how to balance endgame content. Do we focus epic bosses on those who use baubles all the time, making it hard or even impossible for those who cannot afford it? Or do we focus epic bosses more generally, but make it trivial for people who stack the buffs?

    With the last update, we reorganized the baubles into categories that conflicted with each other to put a cap on the potential power output of an individual player, which lets us better predict the balance of endgame content. This resulted in the conflicts that were mentioned - you could not stack extra damage output with extra damage output, or extra defense with extra defense. This also removed some conflicts, however, as prior you could not stack spell defense and spell damage, while now you can.

    The reorganization did railroad the choices of the player into particular categories, making people always choose the same thing, and not giving people an array of buffs to choose from like we intended. So, we have gone back over our baubles and are giving many buffs, changes, and introducing new ones and new categories to let people have more variety and less sameness. We are aiming to let you play to your enemies more.

    In the end, baubles are and always will be a coin sink that is accessible to players that can afford it. There's always going to be a power gap and we aren't trying to make everyone the same. However, the power gap that existed prior was tremendous and hard to balance around. It also limited us from ever adding new baubles, like crafting-oriented or elemental type-bonuses such s in the first post. So we adjusted it, and now are are looking for more ways to make the system more varied and offer more avenues for players to go down and pick and choose.

    I have no intentions of locking threads or deleting posts unless personal insults are thrown or rules are broken, which they have not been.
    Last edited by Sarsilas; March 6th, 2020 at 03:55 PM.

    My avatar was drawn by the generous Scaleeth.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Baubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarsilas View Post
    The issue this presented to us as a team was that we were now facing a dilemma of how to balance endgame content. Do we focus epic bosses on those who use baubles all the time, making it hard or even impossible for those who cannot afford it? Or do we focus epic bosses more generally, but make it trivial for people who stack the buffs?
    Minor adjustments over time are probably best idea and saving really hard fights for future content (if new epics are in plans). Drastically changing game difficulty at this point might be a bad idea due to:
    1) Low population, especially on order.
    2) Small number of players min-maxing, effectively they will get around nerfs and adjust while average player will feel them the most in long run.
    3) Old players who do not enjoy big and sudden changes. I assume a lot of them do not adjust their gear as new content is added since they treat Istaria as easygoing entertainment and maybe do not login frequently, but still want to go on hunt sometimes.

    As it stands, a lot of epics are soloable but some just barely so with a lot of effort/resources needed on player's end (and not just buying baubles). There are still few that can't be soloed due to mechanics present or take too long for single person to bother with. With recent changes soloing became a little harder, but not by a huge margin after making adjustments to tactics.
    Nonetheless even though current changes to baubles are clearly a nerf I can see the point why this is done and I fully approve them, even more so if new are added to increase potential variety of choices.
    Once the above get added (after balance pass) I honestly believe we will be in a good spot. It won't be as easy as it used to be, but difficulty change won't be drastic.
    Velthraxazzar - Chaos

  10. #10

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Baubles

    [QUOTE=Xelrah;321925] [
    As it stands, a lot of epics are soloable but some just barely so with a lot of effort/resources needed on player's end (and not just buying baubles).

    If a char is well trained, well equipped and experienced and has and uses all there is offered by the game (and not just buying baubles)
    and if he/she gets good advice by friend- its possible to solo some epics after one day of training,
    even after a longer break
    And I dare to say- its easier to train a "pure" char (pure melee/pure caster) than a hybride.
    A hybride needs much more scales, claws, potions and tricks to be in good shape..
    A pure melee really might not need Alyssa`s Energized state^^ A caster can do without Brobbet.
    A hybride...
    YOU told me to play a dragon! [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  11. #11
    Staff :: Developer Sarsilas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Baubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Xelrah
    As it stands, a lot of epics are soloable but some just barely so with a lot of effort/resources needed on player's end (and not just buying baubles).
    Quote Originally Posted by LOVWYRM
    If a char is well trained, well equipped and experienced and has and uses all there is offered by the game (and not just buying baubles)
    and if he/she gets good advice by friend- its possible to solo some epics after one day of training,
    even after a longer break
    We are aware that some (if not all) epics can be soloed on a scale of difficulty. Perhaps I shouldn't have used them as an example in my explanation - I might've misled people a small amount there.

    Killing an epic solo generally requires good armor, good buffs, and the knowledge of the enemy. We understand this and do not want to take any of that away from you because it can translate into epics. That is time invested into the game for something you are interested in. Our population is also small and the subsection of players that work to be perfectly min-maxed can assist those who are in timezones where they cannot get a group due to server population by selling resources. We encourage group play, and add mechanics that encourage this, but we don't directly aim to eliminate solo play.

    Regarding baubles on their own, since they are purchaseable buffs, they do not require any effort - you simply buy them and go, if you have the coin. This results in a notable power boost that allows players to very easily get an edge on others and potentially trivialize some content - not just epics, but any content that we may try to introduce as an individual challenge. On a game design standard, it does not sit well with us to let too much power be purchaseable. A limit was needed, introduced, and is now being readjusted to be a bit more generous, more interesting, and hopefully, rewarding, but not overpowering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xelrah
    Minor adjustments over time are probably best idea and saving really hard fights for future content (if new epics are in plans).
    I cannot reveal details, but a future epic we are working on potentially would require a group, but I'd be interested to see if anyone can solo it. Consider that a challenge, if you wish. :)

    My original post was referring to future content, though, not anything existing. I didn't mean to imply we considered changing the game's balance as a whole because of baubles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xelrah
    Nonetheless even though current changes to baubles are clearly a nerf I can see the point why this is done and I fully approve them, even more so if new are added to increase potential variety of choices.
    Yes, it would open up the potential for more variety. We can add as many as are desired within each category, effectively, as we won't have to worry about all of them stacking on one another. So it opens many doors in the future; this is an overarching change, therefore the feedback thread, and in the future you may see more trickle in over time as we get new ideas.

    My avatar was drawn by the generous Scaleeth.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Baubles

    asked on discord but i think it may have been missed,
    Are the Baulbles still intended to be a coin sink?

    Personally i think it would be a great idea to put them back on monsters that dont carry Trophies (at a chance a random bauble of correct tier would drop)
    That way those mobs that never get hunted in areas players never go will get some action too.
    Players could consigner the ones they dont want to revigourate a bit of the traders market too.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Baubles

    Yes, it seems to me a bit that we skip the important thing, which is the inclusion of a large number of improvements lies mainly in the matter of humanoid classes, baubles, or what you would call them, only added to these classes more vigor, otherwise you have a case with dragons that have less this type of capabilities, this is a different character class based mainly on skill and slightly increased armor, they do not have a lot of buffs for casting on themselves, and the majority of it can cast on others. Baubles that were previously combined were more optimal boost for dragons than overboost on humanoid classes, I won't talk about where other classes get more improvements at once, that's another thing, but for dragons, it's a more painful change than for peds.

    Recently, dozens of changes have got out of control, I ask for more reason and reflection in the next changes, make changes interesting, giving opportunities, but not harmful, like a few recently added changes

  14. #14
    Staff :: Developer Sarsilas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Baubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindala View Post
    asked on discord but i think it may have been missed,
    Are the Baulbles still intended to be a coin sink?

    Personally i think it would be a great idea to put them back on monsters that dont carry Trophies (at a chance a random bauble of correct tier would drop)
    That way those mobs that never get hunted in areas players never go will get some action too.
    Players could consigner the ones they dont want to revigourate a bit of the traders market too.
    They are intended to be a coin sink and there are no plans to put them on the drop tables.

    Part of the reason they were removed from the loot tables was to give more room for other items - any time you add a new item, you reduce the chance of getting another item. When a bauble drops, that could've been a technique component, a trophy - something else you may be hunting for.

    Of course this was when they were common that it was more of a problem, but it's still something we have to consider every time we add a new drop.

    Quote Originally Posted by vasteel View Post
    Yes, it seems to me a bit that we skip the important thing, which is the inclusion of a large number of improvements lies mainly in the matter of humanoid classes, baubles, or what you would call them, only added to these classes more vigor, otherwise you have a case with dragons that have less this type of capabilities, this is a different character class based mainly on skill and slightly increased armor, they do not have a lot of buffs for casting on themselves, and the majority of it can cast on others. Baubles that were previously combined were more optimal boost for dragons than overboost on humanoid classes, I won't talk about where other classes get more improvements at once, that's another thing, but for dragons, it's a more painful change than for peds.

    Recently, dozens of changes have got out of control, I ask for more reason and reflection in the next changes, make changes interesting, giving opportunities, but not harmful, like a few recently added changes
    Class balance is completely separate from additions like baubles. When a class is out of line from another class, then that is an issue with that class. It has nothing to do with the inclusion and balance of baubles, which equally affect all classes across all races.

    My avatar was drawn by the generous Scaleeth.

  15. #15
    Staff :: Developer Sarsilas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Baubles

    Hello everyone. We have updated and come up with a new draft of baubles for you to review and give feedback on. This comes from your previous feedback we've garnered across all sources. As always, exact values are subject to change before release.

    We have determined lower-tier values, but I am omitting them for the sake of time and clarity.

    Offensive
    • Alyssa's Energized State: Outgoing Spell Damage +20DPS
    • Brobbet's Hand of Justice: Outgoing Melee Damage +20DPS
    • Galderos’ Tactics: Outgoing Ranged Damage +20DPS
    • Fury of Daggarth: All Damage +11DPS
    • Istara's Guiding Hand: 75% Chance: Automatically Hits
    • Istara's Breath: Outgoing Healing +20HPS


    Damage Kicker
    • Spectral Touch: 35% Chance on Hit 25-30 Spirit Damage
    • Flaming Touch: 35% Chance on Hit 25-30 Flame Damage
    • Freezing Touch: 35% Chance on Hit 25-30 Ice Damage
    • Electric Touch: 35% Chance on Hit 25-30 Energy Damage


    Defensive
    • Holy Armament of Istara: Incoming Attacks do 81% of normal damage
    • Mystical Ward: Incoming spells do 81% of normal damage
    • Divine Protection: Reflect 12% of incoming damage to attacker
    • Bachantus' Hooves: 5% Chance on tick to gain a 15s immunity to rooting spells and abilities
    • Niatha's Focus: 5% Chance on tick to gain a 15s immunity to stuns and mesmerizes


    Utility
    • Alyssa's Touch: Spell Delay -30%
    • Brobbet's Burst: Melee Attacks Delay -30%
    • Galderos' Flurry: Ranged Attacks Delay -30%
    • Hastened: All delay -20%
    • Istara's Grace: 15% Chance to guarantee evade of incoming attacks


    Statistic
    • Daggarth's Blessing: +100 Strength
    • Alyssa's Blessing: +100 Power
    • Drulkar's Vitality: +150 Health
    • Niatha's Aegis: +100 Ethereal Armor
    • Galderos' Shield: +150 Armor
    • Kaasha's Aim: +100 Dexterity
    • Merrasat's Eye: +100 Focus


    Crafting Skills
    • Harvester: +100 to gathering skills (ex. foraging, mining)
    • Refiner: +100 to refinement skills (ex. stoneworking, smelting)
    • Artisan: +100 to production skills (ex. armor craft, weapon craft)
    • Builder: +100 to construction skills
    • Keen Eye: +15% Chance for bonus materials
    • Packrat: +200 Bulk
    • Istara's Gait: +12 Speed, Fly Speed
    • Drulkar's Gale: +20 Fly Speed
    • Kaasha's Finesse: +20 Speed


    The most notable change you may take heed of is that we have translated some percentages to straight numbers. This is to make the baubles more useful at lower tiers, without affecting higher tiers. We have tested personally the +% damage to +DPS to make sure the numbers align. While you will not always get exactly +20%, you will range between +18 and +22%, averaging out to about the same output.

    We have also added many new baubles to the Crafting category and added a healer-centric bauble in the outgoing category.

    My avatar was drawn by the generous Scaleeth.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Baubles

    The +Gathering skills bauble seems pointless as Gathering potions are better and way cheaper. And for lower tier crafters, they cannot gather outside their tools' "quality" (tier) anyway. Hence "doubling up the skill" has no point that I can see.

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