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Thread: Let's talk about end game casters (wiz, mag, sorc, conj etc)

  1. #1

    Default Let's talk about end game casters (wiz, mag, sorc, conj etc)

    I'm pretty sure there's a serious disparity between melee and caster dps/usability.

    Once you multiclass a melee character you can click two buttons (melee flurry and unbridled energy) and essentially do 2000-3000 damage every 2-4 seconds depending on your swing speed/damage type, which is awesome and needed, don't get me wrong, but how can a caster compete with this?

    Cast a bolt for 250-400 damage every 3 seconds? Even with the epic spell tech you're still pathetic.

    Yes they have AoE but it's probably 10x less than dragons do especially in an extended engagement, or even a whirlwind/energy saber from a hyped up melee character.

    Yes, they have some crowd control (barely, after a few hits/dots they're coming after you anyway, and good luck controlling that in a public environment)

    Yes, they can have stuns but stuns are essentially useless now especially when you have more than 2 dragons in the group (tail whippings) giving stun immunity, the slow of the ice spells are essentially useless end game. Don't even try any of your tricks against an epic mob because you can't even effect them. So glad my satyr's charge is useless on one of my characters.

    Plus all the dps ablities do 180-250 damage typically

    I think you could triple the spell/ablility damage and we'd still see exactly zero casters ingame with high ratings.
    Every time I see ANY bi-ped spell caster run around I ALWAYS say "OMG, that's sweet I never see one of those in game"

    Please discuss.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Let's talk about end game casters (wiz, mag, sorc, conj etc)

    I remember when having a sorcerer in group was half of a victory.
    There been 3-4 on Order- . It was an honor to have one of them with us.

    No use for sorcer anymore- nor for Shamanes and all other you named..
    YOU told me to play a dragon!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Let's talk about end game casters (wiz, mag, sorc, conj etc)

    Very true Lov, They have nerfed the dragon caster with the OH. I remember when I could not wait to get higher level to get the next version of Drain Bolt to help the caster be more powerful. Now the Improved Prime Bolt does more damage. What is the point in having a special drain bolt now? 3 tech slots and what do we put on it....accuracy...WOW. They have nerfed a lot of adventure classes that I don't even bother to play anymore. I have read what some are trying to do to make their characters be able to compete with the new combat system. I don't know if I am going to bother with it anytime soon to what? get a 2% increase in damage or armour and then you are not sure if it is even 2% or -2% lol. The biggest number of players/subs are vets and since the OH I have noticed many are dropping extra subs because it is not so much fun to play anymore...sad. I am mostly here because of friends. I just hope they consider all the years we have played and enjoyed the game and stop trying to make it more difficult to enjoy anymore.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Let's talk about end game casters (wiz, mag, sorc, conj etc)

    Scram, friend!
    Pls forgive- but I cant sign your post.

    This thread is not about dragons-
    and I agreed with zachy complaining the loss of power and uselessness of certain biped classes- once indispensible in certain fights.
    Which has nothing to do with COH!.

    But - just to give you a statement from the other point of view:
    Combat Overhaul did NOT harm my dragons they are as strong as before- even a bit stronger-
    cause I tried new things and found out : I still can iimprove:-)))))
    Sure- having lost drain boilt uber weapn is annoying. Annoying- nothing else.
    And now- as I check my dmg output carefully in each fight . *clears throat* satisfying^^.
    Lov (hybride caster and Luna (hybride melee). And ther is still not all done which I think of to keep on improving.
    And I AM NOT strongest, most clever, or even uber drag here. Some of my dragon friends beat my dmg numbers easily.
    So lets do try and error- and uber drain bolt will be a sweet memory soon!!

    Can t talk about if COH nerved bipeds.. but what I hear is more vice versa...
    The nerves I was thinking of and talking about took place long ago.
    Ranger, Sorcerer are 2 which made friends leave the game..years ago.

    I still say- hail devs- this COH was necessary to give the game a future- we all want it to have. So Thank you devs again for all your hard work.

    Long live Istaria
    YOU told me to play a dragon!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Let's talk about end game casters (wiz, mag, sorc, conj etc)

    It's all good Lov. We shall see how this works out for all


  6. #6

    Default Re: Let's talk about end game casters (wiz, mag, sorc, conj etc)

    Sounds like a good opportunity for the devs to continue looking at each class, see which ones are under-performing, and give them the love they need. The COH has, hopefully, made adding new abilities, spells, techs, etc, and balancing them, easier and more straightforward than before. I don't have any high-rating bipeds yet, so I don't have any insights on what exactly needs to change, but thus far I've found mage to be quite fun in the early levels. But that's just my two cents, and I wish I had better feedback to offer.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Let's talk about end game casters (wiz, mag, sorc, conj etc)

    I originally built my goat (Woe) specifically to be a Sorc, then switched to Mage because of the lil extra dps, but after playing Knoc, Chaos W, and Battle Mage I have more fun with a sword/maul in his hand easily because I can actually kill stuff in a reasonable amount of time. I miss playing him as a Sorc. But yes, I absolutely do like the combat OH and appreciate all the hard work being done on the game still.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Let's talk about end game casters (Arcane/Mystic)

    Also yes I completely forgot to mention the mystic casters because they've been irrelevant longer than arcane (other than using them as a knock off healer) I forget they exist, thank you for bringing those up Lov. They definitely need some love too.

    For fighting the regular T5 mobs I'm sure they're still fine (probably more so than when I leveled up Sorc as my first lvl 100 omg was that a grind). But this conversation I meant to specifically be about multiclassed Mystic/Arcane characters vs T6/epics... there's a reason we log in and see only 2 handers that wear plate, healers and rangers. The debuffs/dots are mostly useless vs a mob that has 6000+ health.

    Can you imagine soloing Burris' List of Trophies (especially now that the Taskmaster/Ogre/Aegror's run in a group) or fighting Kwellon Zerkers as a bi-ped caster vs one of the meta classes.
    Last edited by Zachyattacky; April 30th, 2024 at 02:15 PM. Reason: typo's, title, etc

  9. #9

    Default Re: Let's talk about end game casters (Arcane/Mystic)

    Part of the problem is casters do not have tier VI equivalent "equipment" that melee does (see priceless weapons) nor do they have as many boosts to damage output. And spell lines need to be fleshed out significantly. The only one that can do a full rotation without needing a bolt spell going off is flame. The rest are very, very bare.
    Cauri BloodBane - Order
    100 DADV / 100 D C R A

  10. #10

    Default Re: Let's talk about end game casters (Arcane/Mystic)

    I've made some notes, thank you all for the feedback. One question, however, have you tried out the Superior Tomes as a caster?
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  11. #11

    Default Re: Let's talk about end game casters (Arcane/Mystic)

    I agree with Zachy at all. Biped casters have gotten very uninteresting.

    My personal view is: they lack personal benefits. It's not only about doing less dps compared to melee/dragons. If each of the casters had their own personal VERY improving benefits on a certain topic, they could rock again. That doesn't need to be all about dps.

    Artifact aimed for this approach from the beginning. They made casters have specific damage types. (Mage = Flame, Wizard = Energy, and so on..). They struggled with it and it has never gotten a reason for a player to switch to those schools. But I think the approach wasn't too wrong at all.

    Currently, Blood Mage is a good example of how it could work out. It's the only biped magical school having abilities and spells which are specific to their topic. They raise effectiveness compared to other magical schools. No others can use them. If devs would change the game's behavior so Blood Mage became even more uniquely uber to specific encounters, the school would get interesting again. This should happen for every magical school.

    Lov mentioned Sorcerers. Basically they were like that. They had good ways to manipulate big encounters to not do their most heavy special attacks (I can't recall, had they stuns? mezes?). Due to changes on the encounters, the skills/spells/abilities have gotten relatively useless and gave no more special benefits to the Sorcerer school. Hence people stopped playing Sorcerer because they lack those.

    Above text shows my point of view from gameplay at all and I am sure the devs are doing their best to get a good strategy. Looking back at my playing time since 2014 always had me assume that the game code has very nasty limits to what they can do and how. Changes will take their time. And feedback like this thread.

    High Five to the devs.

    Istaria Lexica | Istaria Reference

  12. #12

    Default Re: Let's talk about end game casters (Arcane/Mystic)

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    I've made some notes, thank you all for the feedback. One question, however, have you tried out the Superior Tomes as a caster?

    Yes and they are severely lacking when compared to melee options. They are a nice stat stick, but that's about it. Unless I'm mistaken they can only accept tome sockets which are very much inferior to "normal" crystals as they either only provide a stat increase or an increase only to the Tome ability, and even then it's a low proc chance of i think 30$.

    Compare that to melee options - several tech that provide damage procs 100% of the time (Frozen Shard, Nazerdom's Crest, and the fire based one). Melee also has several techs that increase base DPS (looking at you Ironwood Shaft/Thurid's Undead Slayer). As mentioned earlier, melee also has access to tier VI Priceless weapons. Casters do not - either in the form of actual weapons/techs/crystals or in spells - the only Tier VI spells in game are Drainbolt X which was nerfed to oblivion and Bloodbolt V.

    ( kinda feels like the nerf to bolts were due to Drainbolt being king on the dragon side. And while it did need a nerf I think 1. it went to far; drainbolt kinda has no point any longer IMO and the overall nerf to repeaters was much more detrimental to biped casters than it was to dragons.

    Dragons are a bit better than biped casters in that they have spell focused end game weapons and a tech kit - the primalist claw has no equivalent on the biped side nor does the deadly tech kit. I know I mentioned either opening up deadly to biped weapons in the discord Suggestion Channel but not quite sure if I made an actual suggestion but that would be a bit helpful.

    As mentioned above, fleshing out the damaging spells in the different spell types would also go a long way. When you nerfed bolts, you left all other damage types hanging - Spiritist has I think 2 direct damage and 2 Dots. Energy has 2 Single Target and 1 AOE. Ice has several. Nature has a decent number of AoEs but they are low damage.

    As I mentioned, the only real viable caster class, and it's still below melee, is a mage - their focus on fire and their fire boosting abilities are helpful, but they still pale in comparison to what a melee has access to (melee flurry, hero's resolve, the paladin version against undead, Nature's Fury, Unbridled Energy and I'm sure I'm forgetting some).

    For generic spell damage boost you get Energy Burst from Wizard which is a 1 min duration with a 2 minute cooldown. Closest ability on the melee side is Nature's Fury - 1 minute duration with a 1 minute cooldown. Melee also has many more options for increasing alacrity than casters. I can reach 50% delay reduction with melee but cannot reach the same with a caster whether dragon or biped. Melee has several class based clickies to increase alacrity and I I don't believe casters have any.

    Now I'm not advocating in any way for a nerf to melee. I'm having a blast on my Monk/Paladin/whatever I feel like playing with when I log in. Casters just need to be brought up to melee level. And I think I've rambled on long enough, hope there's some feedback there you can work with.
    Cauri BloodBane - Order
    100 DADV / 100 D C R A

  13. #13

    Default Re: Let's talk about end game casters (Arcane/Mystic)

    the biped equivalent to primalist claw is Queens Vertebrae. Not that bad- But what do I know about biped stuff..
    Maybe this Vertebrae just needs a little facelift?
    Same goes for Demonskin Staff..
    may be something easyly to begin with.
    YOU told me to play a dragon!

  14. #14

    Default Re: Let's talk about end game casters (Arcane/Mystic)

    From what I can tell, The Queen's Vertebrae is for support/healing, not damage, unlike the Primalist's Claw, so they're not really equivalent. Since most epic hunters are dragons (from what I've seen), dedicated biped support/healing classes are not necessary since dragons already have access to plenty of healing. Schools like Cleric and Healer could maybe be more useful in an all-biped party, but I doubt that happens very often.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Let's talk about end game casters (Arcane/Mystic)

    Thy Spaghetti- concerning the Vertebrae I obviersly missed the point^^
    We hunt with a not so small group epics regularyly- hail to our dedicated healer (at least 2)
    it makes hunting fun- no stress.
    And both will not become unemployed-
    we do what a mmo is ment for- we hunt in group- and not all are able to heal themselves AND fight efficiently.
    Or willing to do so- I e.g. can frighten a greater-and risk much more- knowing that my guarding angel is right beside me.
    As said- for me its more fun.
    And the healer have to be mighty too- and know exactly who needs what and when.. its a win win
    ok- at least for us
    and updated sorceres and shamanes would be welcome too.
    YOU told me to play a dragon!

  16. #16

    Default Re: Let's talk about end game casters (Arcane/Mystic)

    Queen's Vertebrae isn't equippable by the "Arcane" casters (wiz, mage, conj, etc). Demonskin Staff and Elial's thorn and the Bloodthorn Staff look to be the intended epic biped caster weapons but aside from the 100 power & focus, none boost spell damage in any meaningful way as the Primalist claw does. Gearing for end game casters as I mentioned above is very lacking compared to melee.
    Cauri BloodBane - Order
    100 DADV / 100 D C R A

  17. #17

    Default Re: Let's talk about end game casters (Arcane/Mystic)

    I have not tried the tomes, but on paper I don't see how they would be better than the Blood Staff etc. I agree that mainly the lack of damage modifiers is where the casters suffer the most. They possibly need something comparable to powerstyle and melee flurry. Just a bit of a boost would go a long way and make them more fun for the player.

    Also if you think about it the melee characters get a bump in damage for every attack/ability everytime they update their weapon. Casters get higher tier spells but have no other way to modify the damage aside from that, so when melee got lvl 100 weapons the casters never got a bump (aside from melee) when everyone else got a much needed power boost for the super strong t6 mobs. Yes, they can use the Bloodstaff (and others) which do good melee damage but why can't they give you a nice bump to your spell/magic ability damage too.

    When I play a caster I want to cast spells, not hit stuff with a really cool looking stick, unless it gets close, then I'll smack it around a bit.
    Last edited by Zachyattacky; May 30th, 2024 at 04:54 PM.

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