Verio Strikes Back

[Thunndar]

Well folks you better keep your fingers crossed, if anyone goes to look at the court docs you will find Verio is still quite mad at AE it seems and is pulling out the big guns.




They found out about Tulga games and how it ties directly in with DB, and they aren't happy about it , and they are calling Tulga a shell company.



With the proof that they have ( easy to obtain ), they waited a bit to let AE have just enough rope to hang themselves with and now is showing the courts all the info.


They are asking the judge to liquidate all assests in order to pay both the secured and unsecured debts, this will very likely mean the end of HZ as we now know it.



You don't have to believe me, go look up the info on your own, it's not good .



Play while you can, becuase im a fewmonths you may no longer have the option.

[Seranthor]

few months? I would expect that if Verio has enough proof then the 15Dec might be the end.

[Dangit NotAChance]

Just want to interject something here.

After looking over the verio motion to deny the sale of the assets to Tulga games there are a few things missing from their motion that a judge will look at closely.

First off, Verio is not declaring exactly what they want in their motion. Are they asking for money? I didnt see it in there. Are they asking for liquidation of AE so they can purchase the assets? didnt see that there either.

So, the judge must ask, what is verio's aim in filing this motion? On the surface it looks like it was done from spite. Now the judge can look at it and decide that Verio's role in these preceedings is over. The issue of their contract with AE has been resolved and any bearing Verio has on further preceedings is limited.

Personally, I feel that if Verio had filed their motion and stated that they still want to be paid for the 4 months of service they had to provide while the preceedings were going on, and if the sale is approved they feel they wont be paid, then their motion would carry more weight. As it is, the judge may look at it and approve the sale over Verio's objections

[Thunndar]

If you reread Dangit, it's not the sale they are really objecting to, but it's who they are selling it to.


They will more than likely bring out information on how Tulga is a shell company, tied directly DB ( once again that info is easily obtained by doing a few searches), and that they are using it as a way to to get out of debt with the unsecured creditors.



The case will more than likely go past the 15th while the judgeinvestigates all the information, she may overturn Verio's motion, however witht the information being presented to her I seriously doubt that.

[Dangit NotAChance]

The judge will ask one important question. Why are Verio objecting to who it is being sold too? Honestly, Verio previously asked that AE either announce they are either rejecting the contract and let verio use the equipment for something else or Keeping the contract and paying Verio.

AE rejected the contract, Verio is using the equipment for something else. It may not be exactly what Verio would like but it is what they asked for. So the judge can look at it and ask the question, why does Verio care? Are they asking now to be paid? and feel that the sale to Tulga will prevent them from being paid? If that is the case then Verio needs to redo their motion and bring that to the forfront. Other wise, I can see the judge dismissing Verio's motion on the basis that they no longer have an interest in the preceedings

[Peaches]

I sure hope that is the case Dangit. I would truly hate to see the demise of a game that I enjoy so very much.

[Thunndar]

All Verio has to show is that AE did this with forethought and malice, what AE did was and is illegal.


There is a reason why Tulga had to pull HZ off there webpage, which I am sure you know about.


With the dates of when DB private company was formed as well as Tulga ( both sharing the same address) and a few other peices of info, well selling a company to yourself when you brought the company to where it is to begin with well.......


Common sense.


Verio does still in fact have a stake in this, they can show other companies that if you do this to them that you will pay.

[Tantalyr]

Thundarr, it's pretty obvious that you don't know much about bankruptcy law. I do--I've been specializing in that field for some 23 years now in my legal practice.

It is not at all uncommon--nor is it in any way illegal as you suggest--for insiders of a company to purchase the company's assets or stock in the context of a bankruptcy proceeding. Indeed, that is pretty much the norm when the company has a viable product or service.

Verio's latest motion, like the majority of its prior ones, is at best petulant and at worst a Parthian shot that misses its mark. As Dangit pointed out above, Verio got what it foolishly asked for--all of its server rack space back, and now it appears to be angered at its own stupidity.

I suspect the bankruptcy court will simply ask Verio if it wishes to make a better offer than Tulga's, which entails payment of all secured creditors. And I doubt seriously that Verio will want to pony up those millions just to spite Tulga and AE.

So as for me, I'm looking forward to many more months (if not years) of enjoying Horizons.

[Dangit NotAChance]

All Verio has to show is that AE did this with forethought and malice, what AE did was and is illegal.

That is a tall order to prove. Its up to the judge to decide if its illegal. other wise its just personal opinion and you think that its illegal.

Now people can speculate all they want. Its up to the judge to decide. Personally, I have seen companies do exactly the same as what AE did and the bankruptcy courts allowed it. Then there are cases where it wasn't allowed. So it is up to the judge.

[Zarcharien]

"Thundarr, it's pretty obvious that you don't know much about bankruptcy law. I do--I've been specializing in that field for some 23 years now in my legal practice."

This is what I would like to hear more of on this issue, is people with experience in law, specifaclly banckruptcy,whoaremore credible and most likelyknow what they are talking about, not people who set out with speculations and looking for whatever they can find to support their agenda, be it for or against Horizons.

[Tryagain]

Thundarr, it's pretty obvious that you don't know much about bankruptcy law. I do--I've been specializing in that field for some 23 years now in my legal practice.

It is not at all uncommon--nor is it in any way illegal as you suggest--for insiders of a company to purchase the company's assets or stock in the context of a bankruptcy proceeding. Indeed, that is pretty much the norm when the company has a viable product or service.

Verio's latest motion, like the majority of its prior ones, is at best petulant and at worst a Parthian shot that misses its mark. As Dangit pointed out above, Verio got what it foolishly asked for--all of its server rack space back, and now it appears to be angered at its own stupidity.

I suspect the bankruptcy court will simply ask Verio if it wishes to make a better offer than Tulga's, which entails payment of all secured creditors. And I doubt seriously that Verio will want to pony up those millions just to spite Tulga and AE.

So as for me, I'm looking forward to many more months (if not years) of enjoying Horizons.

But you also assume that Verios lawyers are twits and the ones working for AE are brilliant. Umm no their objection does have merit and it was very strategic in its timing. And Tantlyr it isn't illegal to do this as long as there is something to liquidate for the unsecured creditors. If it can be proven that Tulga Games was created expressedly to acquire the game debt free while the unsecured creditors lose everything is not totally legal as you suggest. It really boils down to how Judge Curley feels that day to be totally blunt. The judge may allow it or there is yes a chance they may not.

I can say this I do know that the court system takes a dim view on using the process to stall for time and achieve a secondary agenda, as in filing for chapter 11 with no intention of ever reorganizing and coming out of it. Their documents clearly show creation JUST before AE ( 3 days before ) filed for bankruptcy. Verio also has documents filed in which they show they asked AE for further financial documents and that AE used that week they gave as time to file chapter 11. If Verio's lawyers are smart they will play on the courts views on such strategies.

But its all still conjecture because one thing for sure no one can ever predict the outcome of such proceedings anyway.

Personally I feel the judge probably has so much on the agenda already that he/she isn't going to want to deal with this and simply allow the sale and be done with it. There probably just isn't enough to waste the courts time any further.

But that is just my opinion.

[Tantalyr]

If it can be proven that Tulga Games was created expressedly to acquire the game debt free while the unsecured creditors lose everything is not totally legal as you suggest.

Which section of the Bankruptcy Code, or any other statute for that matter, do you believe prohibits such activity?

[Tryagain]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Tryagain wrote: If it can be proven that Tulga Games was created expressedly to acquire the game debt free while the unsecured creditors lose everything is not totally legal as you suggest.

Which section of the Bankruptcy Code, or any other statute for that matter, do you believe prohibits such activity?

US Law is precedent run. Statutes and codes are merely guidelines till an established series of judgements can be used to determine action for present and future cases. You have your you shall not kill steal and rob laws after that history is pretty much used.

So whereas my access to a law library is limited ;) I do have access to a bankruptcy lawyer who tells me that most of what you say is correct. But that its not as simple as filing chapter 11 with no intention of emerging while you create whats called a " Shell " company to acquire the rights to your product debt free. The Judge may allow the sale with the condition that Tulga Games assumes unsecured debt is one very possible outcome. Now had a company like Turbine stepped forward and wanted to buy the assets of AE there would be no question of that sale going through. But right now Tulga is offering shares to secured creditors that are pretty much worthless and leaving the unsecured creditors out in the cold. Those are all important factors here.

But if it was as common as you suggest the court system would be clogged with just such cases. You probably would be in a better situation to tell me but I was told this isn't as common as you might think.

Anyway do I actually think the Judge is going to go no ? Nope as said there are probably more pressing cases on the Agenda to deal with. Where I disagree is with your assertion that Verio's lawyers are being whiney and petulant. From what I have been told most of their actions have been rather strategic but up until now they didn't have much to oppose AE on.

I wouldn't really worry about this anyway. Play the game and have fun. HZ is too good of a concept to simply just fade away. If it isn't Tulga Games AE version 2.0 doing it someone else will pick it up when they are in chapter 7. Of this I have no doubt.

[Rrolf]

I see a slightly disturbing trend in these discussions. Once again people have fallen into the rut of assuming David Bowman and Co. are a bunch of brain dead zombies. If that?s true, how did they get this far? The conventional thinking seems to be:

Judge: "Chapter 7 is hereby ordered"

David: "Oh no! I never thought of that!"

Chris: " Me neither! What we gunna to do now"

David: " I dunno. Nothin much we can do but pull the plug I reckon"

* click * game over man, game over.

As I understand this, AE is trying to sell the game (but not debt) to Tulga. Verio is trying to get this sale nixed in favor of forcing a Chapter 7 sale of the assets (for no stated reason).

Are we to assume some third party will appear with a suitcase full of cash, buy up the assets, then close the game down? I suppose Verio could do that if the board of directors was really mad enough, but I doubt they are. AE is just another blip on a very large accounting sheet.

The only thing I see special about a chapter 7 sale is the assets WILL be sold apart from the debt. The assets in question seem to consist of desks, chairs, pc?s and the game code. Everything but the code can be easily replaced. I don?t think the judge is going to break the code up into little pieces herself and try to sell off the chunks. For a slight risk AE / Tulga gets exactly what they want. So, if you get my point, why do we assume the world ends if the judge says "Chapter 7"?

I think I?ll have a turn at assumptions now. The judge won?t go to the bother of a Chapter 7 sale unless there is a chance it would actually accomplish something. Somebody would have to put up a few million in a counter offer for her to think a thing like that. Verio won?t. Their filing will be brushed off.

[Tryagain]

I see a slightly disturbing trend in these discussions. Once again people have fallen into the rut of assuming David Bowman and Co. are a bunch of brain dead zombies. If that?s true, how did they get this far? The conventional thinking seems to be:

Judge: "Chapter 7 is hereby ordered"

David: "Oh no! I never thought of that!"

Chris: " Me neither! What we gunna to do now"

David: " I dunno. Nothin much we can do but pull the plug I reckon"

* click * game over man, game over.

As I understand this, AE is trying to sell the game (but not debt) to Tulga. Verio is trying to get this sale nixed in favor of forcing a Chapter 7 sale of the assets (for no stated reason).

Are we to assume some third party will appear with a suitcase full of cash, buy up the assets, then close the game down? I suppose Verio could do that if the board of directors was really mad enough, but I doubt they are. AE is just another blip on a very large accounting sheet.

The only thing I see special about a chapter 7 sale is the assets WILL be sold apart from the debt. The assets in question seem to consist of desks, chairs, pc?s and the game code. Everything but the code can be easily replaced. I don?t think the judge is going to break the code up into little pieces herself and try to sell off the chunks. For a slight risk AE / Tulga gets exactly what they want. So, if you get my point, why do we assume the world ends if the judge says "Chapter 7"?

I think I?ll have a turn at assumptions now. The judge won?t go to the bother of a Chapter 7 sale unless there is a chance it would actually accomplish something. Somebody would have to put up a few million in a counter offer for her to think a thing like that. Verio won?t. Their filing will be brushed off.

no I actually believe and have been told by a reputable source thatone verypossiblesolution is that the sale will be approved ONLY with the carrying of the unsecured debt as well.

As far as Verio goes their reasons are obvious. Before the chapter 11 filing they had made repeated requests from AE for financial documents. The last request was made after AE told them they couldn't pay the $108K a month figure down from $196K a month earlier. Verio made the request again and AE said ok give us a week and Verio said ok. AE then used that week to file for chapter 11.

Their reason is that they are angry that they were fooled.

So no definitely the management at AE is anything but stupid.

[Malaficeint]

legal or not illegal....makes no difference to me....the court system has not been about right or wrong for a long time now......just ask OJ.


Whether it is legal or no....it is still underhanded and immoral...and I for one, will not see any more of my money go to a company that thinks such things are just fine and dandy....

Daddy once said....the worth of a man is in the honor of his actions....AE/Tulga has no honor in my eyes and can rot in the proverbial hell as far as I am concerned.

I have no doubt they will get away with this, and it is simply sad.

[HratLi]

Ok... so... any news yet? Today is the 'Big Day' isn't it?

-HratLi

[Tryagain]

Arizona works on pacific time I believe. We won't know till tommorrow or I suspect if its approved I doubt David Bowman will miss the chance to publically post the approved sale to Tulga Games.

Or at least the change in the face plate at the office anyway ;) .

I wouldn't worry to much about things. HZ's concept is too good to simply fade away. Its the implementation of it that has led the game to this point. Up till now everything have been conjecture anyway because you never know what the courts are going to do. I severely doubt they will put 20 people out of work.

[Zarcharien]

We'll .. I believe it was the jury (12 people just like you and me) that let OJ walk away, not the court judges or attorneys. So I'm still not for sure how people continue to blame that on our legal system, but thats beside the point. Everyone knows our legal system has flaws, but I for one think we have a good system despite its flaws and I support it.

Now, as for AE filing bankruptcy, its estimated that over 1.5 million Americans and an estimated 40,000 companies filed for bankruptcy in the 12 month period prior to Sept.30. So, do we burn all those people also and accuse them of being unethical and committing crimes? Surely they didn't file banruptcy so they would have to pay their debts! Some may say, we'll they probably didn't try to pull stunts like AE did in this case with Tulga. How do we know? Did they run up their credit cards before filing, sign there car or house over to a friend or family to try to protect their assestsect.? We don't know. So you might want to look up all those files individually so you know what people and companies to avoid giving your money to in the future.

Despite what happens in the courts, some will support the decsison and others will be angered by it, it all depends if it falls in favor or not of their personal agenda. I will not try to pretend like I know the law, because I don't. But I do know what it is like to file bankruptcy, as I did in 1996 (yes I admit, nor I'm I ashamed), which was a very sad time and I hope none of you have to experience it first hand. Almost all my unsecured creditors went unpaid and only a hand full of the secured creditors did I keep to establish a negotiation of pay off so I could atleast keep some of my assets. So, I guess all that puts me in the same category of being unethical and a criminal just as AE is being accused of. Anways, in the end I for one will respect the courts decsion in this matter, whether or not the game is shutdown or not, because I have no personal agenda in any of this. Good luck to all of them in the proceedings, they will all need it I'm sure!

[Dangit NotAChance]

Just want to say, Verio strikes out!