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Thread: ae few things to think about

  1. #1

    Default ae few things to think about

    I understand this is not d&d but i would just like to throw these ideas out anyway. Most of which is taken out of the Draconomicon.

    First i would like to say that in horizons dragons have fit a one class role that has a lot of generalism. It has a lot of everything without the specialization in anything that makesthat class stand out and be usefull to others.
    We hitfor little damage, yet our claws huge. We sharpened them in the adult rop, yet they remained dull. If the same processs is followed in ancient, dragons will remain in their same useless role unable to compare to other classes.

    Wing attacks

    Here are a few combat abilities i think dragons should have taken from the draconomicon.

    One of the more important additions would be our wings. Just taking their size in relation to other races/npcs one may imagine how much damage they could do. Even the hollow bones of a bird are extremely strong on the wing. I don't know if anyone reading may have ever pissed off a swan but those wings can knock you out, and a swan is smaller than a gnome would be. Taking this into account, we should have another set of attacks along the lines of utilizing the power of our wings. Either two wing attacks in association with our claws or an ability on timer such as tail whip.

    Shapeshifting

    One of the more interesting aspects of the draconomicon is the varrying amount of shapeshifting dragons can do. Yet we are limited to the khuit which does not enhance our power, simply put it is a penalty.

    I would suggest to allow dragons the ability to use biped equipment while in dragon form.
    Obviously not to the entire arsonal that biped characters enjoy, but the dragon race/class is severly limited by only having access to 10 techable equipment slots. Compounding the problem is that dragons cannot armor tech an armor scale.
    Another issue on this shapeshifting topic is the fact that when we change rougly 1/6 our size we gain no added dex or land speed. I believe the khuit form should not penalize us it should be a benefit in other areas.

    More equipment issues

    the following is taken right from the d&d book.
    "dragons can wear magic rings without difficulty, even if the dragon does not know exactly what it does, it's likely he would wear it for the decorative value alone."

    Rings and other jewlery is exclusive to bipeds but plenty would have the ability to fit on a dragon as well.

    other equiptment is detailed to have no use other than the hoard except while in a shapeshifted form i.e shields swords(i wish) mauls etc.

    Dragon classes in the form of single choice quests.

    The larget difference between dragosn and other classes is lack to sustainted damage and healing that can save you. This leads to a bad combo for dragons in battle.

    In my opinion it's a shame the dragon classes were removed. I understand that the new single class is what ae/tulga will stick with, but possibly for the future think about this.

    Add in one-time-choice quests that add in many abilities/spells that are accessable to that dragon line of abilities. It would be broken into two different lines per faction.

    In dralk one would follow the pure warrior path, thus it would lead the dragon to have harder natural scales/hit harder etc.
    Next would be a paladin style adding in some heal abilities/access to a few heal spells and buffs.

    In Chic you could choose the wizard or cleric paths. Both shoud be self explainatory.

    Just for a splash of flash i think dragon wizards should gain access to the weapon sucket they can hold a staff in, and have the choice to walk upright withthat staff as some do in D&d lore.

    Dragon crafting.

    On the surface i would like to state a few things about dragon crafting. Biped characters have the ability to raise their stats through crafting above their natural numbers without training points or multiclassing. I believe if a dragon chooses to time the time to raise a 100crafter/drag adv they should benefit through added str and or power. These are the two basic stats that seem to be effected more often by crafting and dragons should have the same access. The dragon craft school has stats per level but they are lower than the adv numbers and for a dragon to sit around forging and digging they should have higher strength, or if they were spell creators they should be increasing intelligence to some degree above that of an adv.

    In terms of what we can make for our hoard and for bipeds is severly limited.
    I think dragons should be the only class possible that can take up a gemcrafting crafter class school.
    I understand we have jewlers i am referring to the gems one would socket intheir armor.
    Bring them in various forms, but have these gems remain untechable for stats etc.Instead, the techs available would give the gem an added effect such as the wd gems gave.

    Heal spells.

    Just as a little comparison biped characters either in warror or cleric form have access to the two basic heals that trump and dragon heal.
    My biped character has only reached the level 50 to compare with tier 2 techs. Nevertheless the gap is already extreeme when compared to my lvl 100 dragon.
    The dragon breeze lines at lvl 100 can heal for about 480 which is the basic average of the spell. Granted it is a nice benefit and is superior to the spells prior to merger they are still nothing compared to others.
    The lack of ability to tech them is one major problem. I understand being able to tech them with biped techs would create an overpowered pulse heal. So then the idea of dragon only heal techs should be explored.
    These can take two forms
    pulse Heal increase
    just as the biped but much less to accomodate to an already low heal that runs on a pulse.

    Pulse heal recycle
    This should take the form as reducing the time inbetween pulses and the time it takes for the whole spell to be reused.

    Pulse heal purify
    Just as the increase it would be less of a % because of amount of pulses that go off in the duration of the spell.

    lunch time, My Final Thoughts!

    I know i forgot a lot i read about in the draconomicon, but if i actually get positive feedback rather than ranting ill try and exemplify on some issues because this was just a spur of the moment thing.

    As some who play bipeds may not agree with the amount of attention me and other dragons demad for our class you must understand that the choise to remove the multiclass ability from dragons has made us trapped and unable to branch out like the other races can. No matter how weak a monk/sorcerer/wizard etc is you can still add power to that character by multiclassing while retaining your character. We cannot this is the difference.
    I would like to end by saying to ae the dragon class so far has fit a nich where it imitates the other races in the world, but it does so in a feeble attempt,and by your very own lore bipds have basically imitated dragons, should we not then have the more potent magics/combat abilities?Dragons thus far have a lot of abilities, but everywhere in the other class trees it is done better and more efficiently. I believe all the hardships to reach ancient status should bring us up to par with the other races.

    You are not only as usefull as you make yourself to be when your core and continuous abilities are so much lower in relation to those around you.
    The two most important things that need attention for this to occur is sustained damage and reliable sustained healing. Until we get these two very important things dragons will remain the same, no matter what abilities they gain through the ancient rop, because once you use them until they reopen you are once again a low damage, low tanking abilitiy, and low healing liability to a group.

  2. #2

    Default Re: ae few things to think about

    Btw i know this belongs in suggestions but i like to see the feedback before i put them there, and pretty much no one ever reads them.

  3. #3
    Member
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    Default Re: ae few things to think about

    You forgot armor... Thick scales my behind, it's about equal to mage "armor".

  4. #4

    Default Re: ae few things to think about



    yes marco i do believe armor is somewhat underpar as well. But it falls back to the techable slots issue.

    I truely believe ae underestimated the power of allowing the biped races to add the armor tech on everything except their weapon. This Problem is compounded with higher tier techs and the ever growing gap between biped/dragon armor capabilities. In terms of mage armor the tech is almost the same as the armor value itself so ae allows them to double the armor they should have in that form this is where the issue occurs.

    At lvl 100 with a lvl 100 hoard my dragon has 1001 ac naked. With my math it should be 930 or something but then again i forget what adult gave us.400 for lvl1-100 400 more for hoard 870 for quests =870 i thought adult was 40 but i guess i'm wrong.
    Anyways i have no info on what a high level mage can or cannoit have in terms of armor.
    However i can use my biped oluviel as an example
    He is a lvl 50 warr/clr/spi

    In warrior form he has over 700 armor. This is without armor techs or techs on jewlery. If he did have those he would reach over 800.

    In spiritist form he has 440 fully teched with tier 3 armor only on his mage suit. Once again with jewlery he would brake the 500 mark.
    Use this lvl of a biped and compare with a dragon at 50 if he/she is max hoard he/she would have 450+adult 40? for 490ac.

    I don't think dragons should have to wear ac scale in order to be able to fiight and it seems without using them we do fall in the range of mage armor which is sickening when you think about it.
    Dragon scales v CLOTH it is laughable on many levels.
    in D&D even the scales of a hatchling dragon would typically beat that of your average mage because most are protectly by a simple layer of fabric.

    Alot of the balance issues with bipedsv dragons come from two major sources. One is tech capabilities and the other is heal capabilities.

    From what i've seen in lvl 40 jewlery the tech grants more than if the biped was to wear ac jewlery. This is true except for hp jewlery which in my opinion needs an adjustment. They can add the same if not more than what dragons can through using their jewlery and still have massive amounts of ac. Dragons have to make a sacrafice for whatever type of armor they choose and currently the only viable choice is armor because it is roughly double the amount of an armor tech.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: ae few things to think about

    Yes, while that sounds like a reasonable cause it does not remove the problem...

  6. #6

    Default Re: ae few things to think about

    Solution: The benefit of dragon scales should grow with age just like the ac techs bipeds can utilize to increase ac. Because dragons don't have access to this we fall behind in armor very much.

    Bipeds have 22 slots 21 can and typically are teched with armor for a max of +440 ac at lvl 100. For many classes this means nearly double the ac.


    dragon ac 1-50 4 for lvl 4 for hoard
    8 x50=400

    dragon ac 51-100 6 for lvl 6 for hoard 12x50=600

    lvl 100 dragon full hoard 1000ac +100 for dragon quests +40 for adult + 250 for ancient (i hope)=1390 If ac scales worn +510= 1900+ true grit 120ish 2020ac.

    Still falls behind most high armor classes but it would fall into the rightae descriptionof being better than most armors. Currently the highest we can get at 100 is about 1660 but that is with a full hoard, and90% of the dragon community that are lvl 100are not even anywhere near a lvl 80 hoard.

  7. #7

    Default Re: ae few things to think about

    The draconicom is the bible on dragons :)

    also your comment on I understand we have jewlers i am referring to the gems one would socket intheir armor. I belive you are refering to crystals? and that is a great idea..but those would also probaly need to be special crstiels other wise bipeds would complain (and mabye some dragons) because those crtyslas can be used to gain xp and a temp stat increase...so my suggestion on the made ones they can still be used for temp stat increase but person will gain no xp when used.

  8. #8

    Default Re: ae few things to think about

    TulgAE has enough of a challenge making dragons (game mechanics) reflect their stated dragon lore.

    Theyrefuse to do that . . . .
    Jaraiden -- Adult dragon, life mate of Shadowwalker, bonded 7/31/04 (Dawn --> Order)
    Adult 73/82 | hatchling 56/65 (70.8 days) [3/9/04 to 3/4/05, 4/12/06 to 4/13/07, Current]

    1. Fix what is broken. -- 2. Finish what is incomplete. -- 3. Add to complement lore.

  9. #9

    Default Re: ae few things to think about

    we can always hope for a larger staff with tulga buying their debt or whatever. How much in the hole before you have to end an mmorpg?"wonders"

    And in terms of the crystals i was just speaking of creating those types of crystals without the exp aspect to them. Ie a craft class that just makes those gems for the reason of socketing them. So they wouldn't have the same exp bonus as the other ones.It's possible thatthe new crstals they will be introducing after ancient and lairs may not have an exp bonus anyways.

    However it would be cool to brake the crystals into two parts one for temp stat increases ie, and the other for socketing. They could be made slightly better or worse than the life spells and fill that gap solo dragons do not have with the buffs of bipeds. They could be made similar to alchemists but they focus on buffs of a different type so alchemists don't complain.

    Ill just try to make up a few examples

    Crystal of speed Tier 1-5 1hour 30 min takes a gift slot.
    1 4% 2 8% 3 12% 4 16% 5 20%

    A tier 5 gift of alac gives 30% so it would be less than biped buffs, thus no complaining.

    Crystal of health Tier1-5 1hour 30 min takes a gift slot.
    1. 40hp 2 80hp 3 120hp 4 160hp 5 200hp

    I think that can give you an idea

  10. #10
    Draven Odysseus
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    Default Re: ae few things to think about

    i just think it's funny that on the horizons forums for DRAGONS that kuitit form is not allowed to be said by the board itself. how sad is that? another form of the hatred AE/Tulga (i hate you both) have for dragons

  11. #11

    Default Re: ae few things to think about



    I don't think their bleeping system is working correctly

  12. #12

    Default Re: ae few things to think about

    so in other words they named our biped form after the nipple that's nice

  13. #13

    Default Re: ae few things to think about

    Dragons do get speed bonus in bi-ped form from 2 wing scales. My wife zips around like crazy.

    Dragons also go get a wing damage a ability (granted it does not get adult bonus)

    The armor is much better than cloth if hoard is up to spec (granted it scales non-linear)

    Also, in D&D dragons did not have much health if believe - been a long time since I have had access to my monster manual - unlike dwarves. Generally dragons just had some nasty spells and breath weapons (casting) andmelee (melee). If you survived the initial attack the dragon was toast. A mage of equal power could drop a dragon if initiative was won - that was the critical role.

    Furthermore, shapeshifting did not give dragons any extra power, and it was a more vulnerable form. However, they could use all forms of armor/jewelry/tools/weapons in bi-ped form. This would not only be a big coding challenge, but quite expensive to get all bi-ped equip and dragon equip (not to mention vault space). Gold dragons were famous for making bi-ped appearances.

    Now I do agree dragons need more work, but the points I addressed stuck out.
    Sajid,
    Lone Lizard of the Apocalypse

    Champions of Honor

  14. #14

    Default Re: ae few things to think about

    Dragons get no bonus in biped form, we have the same exact bonus in dragon form.

    We get no such wing ability i'm a lvl 100 dragon and unless this ability has evaded my eyes for 13 months we don't have it.

    You obviously didn't read the analysis. I'm a lvl 100 dragon 1001 ac without ac scales. That is what ae refers to as dragon ac. It's the same as a cloth wearer with techs on all of his equipment. Probably even less if they have cleric with their good buffs multiclassed. What i'm attacking is the lack of teching ability for dragons to tech ac scales just like every other race can do with their armor.

    Ancient dragons in D&D depending upon the type have around 400ish health. That is a massive amount. If you ever reached lvl 40 in d&d you would be lucky to brake 200 health. Note in D&D a lvl 40 character is considered godlike.

    Next issue yes the shapeshifting form should make dragons weaker. However the biped form would make us more powerfull because Ae has chosen to make dragons so weak in comparison to the other races through their use of multiclassing and armor/weapons. Therefore if in our shapeshitfed form we were allowed to use this armor/weapons we would be more powerfull because of this faulty dragon image ae has created.

    Take a second look at your points :)

  15. #15

    Default Re: ae few things to think about

    Sajid you are going by old D&D rule. The new D&D Dragons are down right nasty, They have as said above 400+ hp, can use their breath weapons every 1d3 rounds I think it is no longer the 3 times a day. They have Wing buff, Tail Swipe, Pounce, Claw attacks. Some are very nasty casters. They can no longer shapechange on their own but the new shapechange they can use if they can cast gives them all the abilities of the new form. So over all an Ancient Dragon can give a full part of 20's a run for their money now.



  16. #16

    Default Re: ae few things to think about

    the wing attack you may have been thinking about was galewind.
    The description has nothing to do with our wings however.
    It is more of a magically induced high wind attack.

    It is pierce based attack with a description that basically says you shoot high velocity winds at the enemy. The animation is similar to using snarl.

    I'm talking about an attack along the lines of wing slap where the wings are actually used in the attack.

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