Removing monotony from crafting

[Tzael]

In the Horizons of today, things are a bit too predictable when it comes to crafting. We know exactly what statistics an item will have as our mouse pointer hovers over the button, ready to craft it. We know what resources it needs to be made, and their quantities. The only random element is how many of a particular resource we?ll get with each swing of the gathering tool. I?d like to expand upon an idea that could make crafting in Horizons much more entertaining, and less of a ?grind?.

Any numbers quoted are examples only. The overall concept is what is important.

First of all let?s address the items themselves. At this point let?s not take into account consumables; we?ll focus on the three main types of item, armour, weapons, and spells. Each of these has a fairly distinct effect that could be influenced. If we were to give appropriate crafted items a quality rating, this could provide an influence over the main effect of the item. We could use a percentage range for the quality rating, going up to 120% to provide additional bonus of the main effect, as well as allowing for poorer quality items. This percentage could influence the armour statistic provided on pieces of armour, or the damage attribute on weapons or spells. If jewellery is included, then whatever statistic a piece provides could be increased or decreased due to the quality rating of the crafted item. Did I leave out dragon scales? Oops? You dragons get the picture; the same can apply to scales too!

Let?s move onto formulas. At present we scribe a formula, and it goes into our formula book, never to leave until we delete it. What if we could take formulas back out? Why would we want to do that? Well if formulas had a quality associated with them, and that quality influenced the quality of items we craft, then they would be a tradable commodity. A crafter obtains the beginner padded tunic formula, and they?re using this for practice when levelling up. They start making the tunics, but occasionally they fail. When they fail, the quality of the formula increases ? let?s just say that the crafter perceives where they went wrong and so they improved their notes on the formula so they wouldn?t make the same mistake again. Once the crafter reaches 100 percent efficiency at crafting that item, their chances of failure are dramatically reduced. Example figures to suggest this change might be 1 failure in 100 prior to full efficiency, and 1 failure in 500 at optimum. There should be a point when formula quality cannot go any higher, so a numeric scale of 1 to 100 might seem suitable for it.

Now we need to tie formula quality with crafted item quality. My own train of thought on this is that a player who is not at optimum for the item they are crafting should have the quality rating for the item influenced by their skill. The final quality should range between 1 to 100%, chosen randomly with their skill providing an influence. Once a player has reached optimum for crafting a particular item, the quality of the formula should be the influence. Quality of the item at this point will be influenced by the quality of the formula, but should tend to be around 100%, on a range from 80 to the maximum 120%. A better quality formula will yield more chance of reaching 120% on the quality rating.

The overall concept leads to two new branches in crafting, better equipment for adventurers, and the option to trade formulas of better quality allowing a new market to develop. By introducing random elements to crafting, we are able to remove some of the monotony, and instil a sense of excitement into the crafter. Even more so if the idea Smeglor suggested about having crafting attempts broadcast to the local channel becomes a reality, maybe it could be tailored so that only attempts that get over 100% on an item?s quality rating are broadcast?

There?s a few issues raised with this idea. Some people may not like the idea of failures. Some might not appreciate the chance of getting a weapon of worse quality than what we craft at present. What happens to resources if we fail? I can?t answer the first two; this is something down to personal taste. I personally crave more entertainment when crafting, and this seems like a nice way to provide it, as well as offering something interesting for the trading part of Horizons.

So what about failures? I think that failures should involve a loss of the main resources, for example iron bars, but that any technique components are returned to the crafter. This way there isn?t likely to be friction between players if a crafter fails when making that triple-tech?d two-handed sword. The crafters benefit from an increase to their formula?s quality rating and the adventurer needing the sword doesn?t have to go hunting for the bits again.

Talking of techniques, what if the quality of an item influenced the benefits offered by a technique, as well as the main effect of the item on which the techniques have been placed? This could of course lead to techniques having less of a bonus; however it could indeed go the other way much to the benefit of the person receiving the equipment.

All in all this will make crafting more exciting, and will provide some crafters with a means to improve their craft further. Here are the main points as posed in this suggestion, as a summary:

Items crafted have a quality rating, measured as a percentage.
Quality rating would not apply to consumables.
The quality rating influences the main statistic of the item.
Bonuses from techniques applied to crafted items are influenced by the quality rating of the item.
Players can occasionally fail when crafting an item prior to reaching 100% efficiency, and rarely fail after reaching maximum efficiency.
Formulas have a quality rating.
Formula quality can be increased through a failure.
Formula quality ranges from 1 to 100.
Formulas can be moved from the formula book to the backpack.
Players can trade formulas, desirable with higher quality, and can be improved further by others who are still not at 100% efficiency quicker than those already at optimum.
Crafting an item when below 100% efficiency will yield a random quality rating for the item between 1 and 100%, and is influenced by the player?s skill.
Crafting an item when at 100% efficiency will yield a random quality rating for the item between 80 and 120%, and is influenced by the quality of the formula.

[Phillip]

i like this very much. this would absolutely rock.

[Laneth]

pretty well thought out concept. the only issue i might see with it is that the lower level crafters will be left in the dust by high level crafters. People would bypass a person in the t-3, t-4 range to have someone in the t-5 range make that same piece of t-3, t-4 gear. might also put a new influx in powergrinding craft levels to max out a school just for the extra bonus.

[kengar]

Definitely interesting, but I see a few issues, the biggest being the already-mentioned problem with making it harder for lower level crafters to compete in the market.

Also, I don't like the idea of unscribing the formula and passing it on. Interesting market, but I don't see a reason to do it other than that market.

I've played in two MMORPGs that had variable quality. DaoC, and Rubies of Eventide. Let me explain to you the Rubies crafting system.

Basically, it had no unscribed formulas. When your skill reached a certain point, you could try to make the item in question. Better materials were harder to craft with, but gave the item bonuses above and beyond the quality rating. Crafting an item usually involved multiple passes, and every pass (including the first) would either fail, destroying at least some of the materials used to make the item, or it would succeed and improve the quality of the item, to a maximum of 125%. The higher the current quality of the item, the more likely failure was. Direct skill improvements happened only on success, and the odds of a skill improvement were inversely proportional to the chance of success of that pass.

As the crafting system itself went, I liked it, but if you think Hz crafting is a grind, you haven't seen anything yet. Multiple crafting passes for every individual item (ranged weapon ammunition was produced in batches, at least). I always had a book to read while I crafted in that game. (The same was true of DaoC's crafting).

On the other hand, it had a rather nasty affect on the market. You couldn't sell anything that was less than 125%. Adventurers only wanted the absolute best. I'd rather not see that same effect hit Horizons.

While I personally would like to see something with more variety in crafting, the ramifications of suggestions like this are far reaching and need to be carefully considered.

[Seikojin]

:o I too agree the idea is cool but would put the low and mid end crafters out of work... Good solution to the limit of 750 forms by having the ability to unscribe them though... I have seen and talked to crafters who do high end goods and have to toss their low end forms... Sad indeed...

I think the crafting system should go to what they boasted back in the day... more complex formulas to make an item... In an example they said swords would be three parts: A blade, handle and hilt. Each part could have a different design/look, therefore allowing many varieties of the same class of sword. There was also supposed to be addons like tassles, jewels, and spell effects...

I think this complexity they need... The more skill you have, the more designs unlocked with the particular form... And they could be just something you add like a dye tech... This of course would add a ton of art, and most likely make the game perform worse, but I want my pommel tassles! :)

in the I wish thread I mentioned somethings they could do to make crafting more fun... Like making craft group bonuses for exp and skill... And same with solo play (different bonuses that stack differently, but they all give an advantage)...

As for somethign currently in crafting... I think the quartermasters and trainers should have better, more complex crafting based quests for lore tokens... grinding lore tokens becomes tedius and boring in the mid range and high range...

As far as I know the quartermaster only gives 1 IBM per quest... there should be ones where you get more...

[Tzael]

I do see the issue with lower level crafters being left out when it comes to better skilled crafters with the best formulas making superior items. Bear in mind however that because of the proposal to trade formulas, lesser skilled crafters are in a better position to boost the quality of a formula and can cash in on this side of the market. This is due to someone at optimum efficiency having far fewer failures than someone who is not yet at 100 percent efficiency. These crafters can work alongside higher skilled crafters who have various blueprints they would like the quality improved upon, or they could just obtain the formula at base quality and work it up, then sell it on. Either way they could end up in a situation where they're still contributing to the overall crafting market and benefitting from it.

The adventurers with the most money to spend will undoubtedly seek out a crafter with optimum crafting efficiency and the best quality formulas avilable. However at the point that the adventurer hands over the technique components, he or she is taking a gamble. There is a possibility of the quality of the item being anywhere from 80 to 120 percent, with a very good formula weighting it towards 120%. The adventurer takes that gamble though, and risks getting an inferior weapon. It might be found that some armourer with not so great blueprints has excellent luck in getting a higher quality on items, it's part of the fun of the random element when crafting [:)]

I too have a desire to see more of the original concept of item tricking, we've got a basic form of it in, but it'd be great to see all the individual parts being made and traded. That's a whole seperate ballgame though [;)] For now I'm keen to see some sort of excitement infused into crafting, and a way to spice up the overall marketplace.

[Seikojin]

:o the underlying problem of mow quality not being bought would still persist. People would toss off the low quality form, or even just never get any (leave it behind if looted) because they wont settle for nothing short of 120%...

I know what you mean, and the idea of having a random neat thing in crafting is cool, but there is too much the player can control with this...

Perhaps if there was item durability, and they needed repair, or there is a random chance in making better items exsist, but the factors involved were different (like using more or higher grade materials for a lower grade formula (Ie iron on a bronze weapon))... I dunno..

[Aquarius]

Different quality of formulas sounds like a good improvment to me.. but how do we learn formulas.. do we just have a portfolio wich we put these in.. the fact that they can't be unscribed wich is not in favour for this.. so my guess would be that scribing is some means of magically memorizing the formula or technique wich is why it could not be traded. but i do like different qualities of formulas.. this would give a crafter wich have all formulas something to do, hunt down and upgrade each formula with better and better qualities..

"There should be a point when formula quality cannot go any higher, so a numeric scale of 1 to 100 might seem suitable for it."

Why 1-100 ?? why not 1-120 for lvls or there could be A B C D E F.. where F is when you Fail almost every time and A is the best.. or there could be 1-7 or something 7th grade crafter is then the highest you can reach.. im not saying it shouldnt be 1-100 but im wondering why not 1-7 or some other number.


"So what about failures? I think that failures should involve a loss of the main resources, for example iron bars"

Only loss of some of the bars since you can still deconstruct the failed or broken pieces of a blade.

For techs.. why not simply have a change for techs so techniques are also like earlier suggested for formulas, drops with random quality.. this would make things more interessting.

But overall this sounds like a good idea [Y]

[Vahrokh]

Randomness is the salt of life.

And nature andus weed off the lesser.

Having random stats and objects is good. But only if the randomness "control" is taken completely away off the players.

If your level or money or anything affects i.e. quality, all those "lesser" will be as good as off game, while the only one for each craft school (possibly just one for several classes) with huge power, levels, money will rule indisturbed, in a baroque market of high level only people that will settle for no less than the best of all.

So, what could work?

A mechanism equal for all that still gives random results. But somehow driven by will.

Take by example the already in game quality selector for crafted items.

What if, by setting it low enough, we could squeeze out a spell with1/4 ofthe reagents? Or an armor piece? But at a risk: the product could come up less good or even destroy competely during creation. Or in case of decaying things, last less or get less recharges.

By setting it to max the spell would come up perfect of course, but at an hefty price.

Risk vs reward.

[Phillip]

Risk vs Reward is one of the main reason why many have left. Most of the ones who are still here would like to have the stuff that is deemed fair accross the board.

craftlevel + comps + formula +resource = item.

Same amount materials in all with possibly a slight chance of more work due to skill attributes, but it's the same item at the end. Different crafters, same levels, same exact items. No one crafter could be named for making that set which made him famous. There is no such thing.

the point of argument on Risk vs. Reward usually render the exageration of uber, overpowered, camping, godly and so on. This is bad for community-centric. Hence most are still here rather stick with the perishable in stead of cherishable, conformity instead of individualism.

Things do not have to be godly, overpowered at all. Look at the Dryad loot for example: unique, rare, uber. They could differentiate one adventurer from the next. Do they have a negative effect on the economy or community? I don't see any.

We got 5 shards' worth of that loot in 1 yet i still don't see any detrimental effects taking place.

However, somewhere along the line the idea of one being able to do more, or be more, to capitalize on Risk vs. Reward in it's true form, is not welcome.

[Tzael]

I can imagine that with a quality rating on items, when a crafter is working on building up their experience (and in doing so improving the quality of their formula) they would deconstruct any items made of inferior quality, keeping the good ones aside. The auto-decon option that was introduced a while back would see less use since a crafter would be more interested in what they were producing.

If quality of item became a factor when crafting I would love to see the idea Smeglor said was possible become a reality, and any items crafted that are 100% or more get broadcast to the local chat channel... That would help the immersion a small amount and would let others know who's getting good results when crafting.

Overall the whole suggestion allows for a more entertaining crafting system. It becomes more involving, and at the same time, more rewarding.

I'd like to see what people think of the idea by using the forum rating system - whether you think it's a good or a bad idea, give it some stars or none at all, let's get an idea of how good or bad the general populous think this idea is [:)] I'll give it 4 stars to start, because I feel that with any initial idea there's always room for improvement [:P] Or maybe I won't give it a rating just yet because I can't find the rating option lol [:D] Seems I can't rate my own posts [;)]

[Tzaphnil]

Items crafted have a quality rating, measured as a percentage.
Quality rating would not apply to consumables.
The quality rating influences the main statistic of the item.
Bonuses from techniques applied to crafted items are influenced by the quality rating of the item.
Players can occasionally fail when crafting an item prior to reaching 100% efficiency, and rarely fail after reaching maximum efficiency.
Formulas have a quality rating.
Formula quality can be increased through a failure.
Formula quality ranges from 1 to 100.
Formulas can be moved from the formula book to the backpack.
Players can trade formulas, desirable with higher quality, and can be improved further by others who are still not at 100% efficiency quicker than those already at optimum.
Crafting an item when below 100% efficiency will yield a random quality rating for the item between 1 and 100%, and is influenced by the player?s skill.
Crafting an item when at 100% efficiency will yield a random quality rating for the item between 80 and 120%, and is influenced by the quality of the formula.

... I came from a system somewhat similar to this, and I'm sorry, but if crafting goes this way, it's good bye to this game for me. Reminds me of FFXI's crafting system which went a bit like this :
*spend time gathering the resources (about 2-4 hours just there, that's one day of work for me because of the amount of time I have)* *head back to town to get the crystals that were necessary to craft (the prices of which fluctuated wildly)* *try to create the item(s) : Fail, fail, fail, fail, success, fail, fail, success, fail, success, success, fail, fail, fail, fail ..* *gained .5 to 1 crafting level from another 2-4 hours of work in which all it was, was grinding* *loose more money on the sale of the items because of the costs* *spend 4 - 6 days trying to recoup the money lost in trying to raise 1 crafting level equivalent* *give up on crafting, and just hope you can get the money to be able to purchase the items you need from people who have already gone through this [Censored]*

Because in that game there was:

The quality rating influences the main statistic of the item. ( better itms crafted by people who had a high level got a +X on the item(s) there were no "techs")

Players can occasionally fail when crafting an item prior to reaching 100% efficiency, and rarely fail after reaching maximum efficiency.

Formula quality can be increased through a failure. (failure gained exp, somtimes, there were not really any "formula in the game, just you could only make items if you knew IRL what the items and crystal type necessary to make the item were)

Crafting an item when below 100% efficiency will yield a random quality rating for the item between 1 and 100%, and is influenced by the player?s skill.
Crafting an item when at 100% efficiency will yield a random quality rating for the item between 80 and 120%, and is influenced by the quality of the formula.
(If you had the apropriate levels necessary to make the item, it worked....most of the time, and if you were high enough level, the item occasionally came out at a higher quality giving more of a bonus)

My vote on this : A very vehement NO
(sorry about the really long post)

[Sigi1985]

It sounds like pure horror.

[Tzael]

... I came from a system somewhat similar to this, and I'm sorry, but if crafting goes this way, it's good bye to this game for me. Reminds me of FFXI's crafting system which went a bit like this :

...

My vote on this : A very vehement NO
(sorry about the really long post)

Don't worry about the long post, I'm notorious for them [:P]

I've never played FFXI, but I have played other games where quality ratings are part of almost every item, in one game even the potions had a quality rating but that's a bit extreme imo [:)]

To try to set your mind at ease a bit, let me touch on the points you raised.

The amount of time to gather resources isn't too bad in Horizons. When you are optimal for a tier, it doesn't take more than half an hour to fill a marble tarbash disk and essenceleather backpack with processed resources. That's roughly 2000 bricks, bars, spools or orbs. Consider that most weapons and armour use roughly 10 of a resource when optimal, that's a lot of attempts at making the item.

While reading your point about the crystals that are costly / difficult to obtain, I had an idea. We now have post-creation dye kits that can be applied to crafted items. Maybe we need post-creation technique kits too, so if this business with quality on items became a reality, then people wouldn't need to worry about trying to craft a triple-techniqued sword and getting a <100% quality on it. A crafter could then churn out swords without techniques applied until they've used up their resources, and get some with >100% quality which they then sell. An adventurer buys the best of the swords, and then buys a Parry V technique kit, a Power Strike V kit,a Socketing kit, and a Jasper weapon and tool dye kit. They apply the kits to their new sword, happy with both the quality and the techniques on it.

Failures only really apply if the idea about formulas I outlined is adopted. To be honest, that's a bit complex and detracts from the core of the idea I originally tried to convey. What can I say ? I was on a bit of a roll with the ideas and I got a bit too enthusiastic [;)] Even still, if the formulas idea was adopted then there would be a noticable benefit to failure, and the rate of failure shouldn't be so high that someone would fail every second or third attempt. Nevertheless, the formulas part of the overall idea could be removed from the suggestion, along with the failures aspect. The failures would hold absolutely no relevance and therefore not be required if the formula concept is disposed of.

FFXI sounds like a very harsh crafting system, designed to make sure that really magnificent pieces of equipment are very difficult to make, and cost the player a lot of time. My suggestion did not intend to imply such harshness, instead it is aimed at providing benefit to the crafters and adventurers alike. Crafters would not feel like they are grinding away when levelling (therefore have more fun), and would be able to diversify their pricing. Adventurers would benefit from more choice in equipment based upon their monetary resources, and with the additional idea of post-creation technique kits they would be able to customise their equipment based on what technique kits are for sale, not what techniques a crafter has.

It sounds like pure horror.

I'm thinking this was in reply to Tzaphnil's comments about the crafting in FFXI [:)] If it was in response to my suggestion then could you elaborate somewhat ? [:)]

[Tzaphnil]

To try to set your mind at ease a bit, let me touch on the points you raised.

The amount of time to gather resources isn't too bad in Horizons. When you are optimal for a tier, it doesn't take more than half an hour to fill a marble tarbash disk and essenceleather backpack with processed resources. That's roughly 2000 bricks, bars, spools or orbs. Consider that most weapons and armour use roughly 10 of a resource when optimal, that's a lot of attempts at making the item.

While reading your point about the crystals that are costly / difficult to obtain, I had an idea. We now have post-creation dye kits that can be applied to crafted items. Maybe we need post-creation technique kits too, so if this business with quality on items became a reality, then people wouldn't need to worry about trying to craft a triple-techniqued sword and getting a <100% quality on it. A crafter could then churn out swords without techniques applied until they've used up their resources, and get some with >100% quality which they then sell. An adventurer buys the best of the swords, and then buys a Parry V technique kit, a Power Strike V kit,a Socketing kit, and a Jasper weapon and tool dye kit. They apply the kits to their new sword, happy with both the quality and the techniques on it.

...

FFXI sounds like a very harsh crafting system, designed to make sure that really magnificent pieces of equipment are very difficult to make, and cost the player a lot of time. My suggestion did not intend to imply such harshness, instead it is aimed at providing benefit to the crafters and adventurers alike. Crafters would not feel like they are grinding away when levelling (therefore have more fun), and would be able to diversify their pricing. Adventurers would benefit from more choice in equipment based upon their monetary resources, and with the additional idea of post-creation technique kits they would be able to customise their equipment based on what technique kits are for sale, not what techniques a crafter has.

I'm glad to hear the points you made, and I can agree with most of them. The craft system I came from was very harsh, cotsly, and time consuming and I would HATE to see HZ turn into anything similar.
We do already have something somewhat like this I've found, but most people frown upon using it (atleast the ones I know, being a Dragon and having brought it up in the Drqagon channel, I'm on Order). It is called Blighted Equipment Crafting, I found a formula for one or two pieces a week or so ago. Making them is a pain because of having to loot blighted essence off of undead creature only (there are no blighted essence nodes or wisps) and the only ways of making the blight cores necessary to make them is to either Disconstruct Blighted Items or Gather enough Blighted essence to make 3 blight cores, and at optimal it takes 10 orbs to = 1 core. I acutally have a post on it here : http://community.istaria.com/Web/Sho...?PostID=101075

I apologize if I mistook what you said, it just looked to me like you were trying to make crafting anything harder and more time consuming and that is the LAST thing I need, having nearly compleeted my RoP and invested about 18 days of play time over about 265 days (for a relative idea ofabout how much I can play). [:)]

[imported_Godly]

"the point of argument on Risk vs. Reward usually render the exageration of uber, overpowered, camping, godly and so on. This is bad for community-centric. Hence most are still here rather stick with the perishable in stead of cherishable, conformity instead of individualism."


WHAT??