Checking the rampant multiclassing

[Vahrokh]

But all in all there are some very nifty abilities dragons have, that bipeds never will. Again, depending on your view/play style depends on how useful they are

The fact that imbalance dragons is that they are multiclassed the D&D (and most other games) way.

They get several more or less working (read some dragon threads to discover that some of our key skills have been bugged for a year and will be till next push on Blight), several "toy" and "show up" abilities and spells that "look cool" (but no mob is impressed by a cool dragons - they first kill, then ask).
And most of all, their multiclass is subtractive.

That is, the fact of having several "classes" or a mix of etherogeneous abilities is kept balanced by them being watered down to keep the overall power lower.

It's almost like a maxed dragon was a level 80 warrior 80 druid 80 mage and some level cleric that overall has a rating of 100 (numbers being just figures - of course I'd kill to be rating 100 and have those classes - I'd own everything [;)]). Even the fighting abilities, very themey, stop at level 70.

On the contrary, the game balance and mechanics demand for a an additive multiclassing. Which is not bad per se, since the game is made with it in mind and so it fits good, it's just that who has the subtractive model lives a different and lesser "dimension".
Somehow a dragon is confined to level 100 rating and below, others can freely go 100 and beyond, so of course they'll beat the hell of mobs. And of course a guy rating 140 will (and should be) tearing thru 20 level lower or more mobs, expecially the weakies like fyakkis and spiders.

Meanwhile, to continue witha (newer) D&D analogy, dragons did not get prestige skills, and it makes them even more disadvantaged.

A situation I hope ARoP will at least attempt to offset a bit.

[kengar]

But the dragons are not a pure caster, they are multi-classed, or a partial of all three.

I'll agree with this part, however I don't think you quite get the degree that dragons are handicapped.

They get a tail whip attack.

Correct. It's our only stun.

There heals are abilities not spells.

Incorrect. We have two heal abilities. One is the standard Instant Heal, which should be viable once we get an Instant Heal based on Primal skill instead of Life. This should be coming soon, as we had it, lost it (with good reason, I don't want to fix my problems at someone elses expense), and now it's back to blight for testing.

The other heal ability is our only good heal, a HoT that is good for 90 seconds, I think, out of every 5 minutes. This one rocks.

We then have three HoT spells at each tier, though they can't overlap, so we only use our best two. However, since they take so long to cast, you'll seldom see a dragon casting them in a fight. You'll take more damage while you stand there casting the spell than the HoT will heal for. However, with a 30 second duration and 60 second recycle, if you cast the HoT, then immediately pull, a third of the HoT is gone before you start taking damage. I think just upping the duration of the breeze spells would go a long way to fixing this issue, though even then, the breeze spells are weaker than Regrowth at the same level. Understandable, given that we're not primarily healers.

They get debuff abilities like Shamans, and Blight users.
They get self heals like many of the classes do.
They get stuns in the form of Tail Whips (if I remember correctly)
They get area attacks as breath weapons.
Ranged attacks as dragon reach.
And this is regardless of their "specialization" assuming they choose to specialise (which is really just spending TPs admittedly).

But they do get many abilities that simulate other abilities/spells. Spiked Scales mimicing Cloak of Thornes. Debuffs (winds of something or other).

Debuff, yes. Any dragon that doesn't use them needs to learn them. I've already discussed the self heals above. Near useless, except for one on a 5 minute timer. One stun, can't remember the timer. Breath Weapon as an AoE attack? Yeah, technically, but the breath attack is weak and also on a 5 minute timer. Comparing Spiked Scales to Cloak of Thorns? Lets see, A druid can cover an entire group with CoT, only having to refresh every 15 minutes. A dragon can't even keep Spiked Scales up on himself all the time, since the duration is half the recycle (the ONLY damage shield in the game that falls into this category). Oh, and the fact that CoT will penetrate Hardened Shell, but Spiked Scales won't. This might change with the patch that went to Blight today. Still, it's like comparing near beer to hard wiskey.

The closest single biped class would be Druid, as druid has some fighting, some healing, some attacks. But lacks many of the abilities a dragon has.

Flight, debuffing, and the hoard powered abilities. I know. I've got a dragon and a druid. The druid leaves the dragon in the dust for AoE nuking, single-target nuking, stuns, healing, damage shield, crowd control, and buffing. Oh, and the druid also gets a total of 17 points of magic use per level, compared to 8 for the dragon (8.7 counting quests).

The fact that you compared dragons to a class that is mostly caster is very telling, especially when you realize that primal magic is weaker and less versatile. Admittedly, a dragon makes a better tank than a druid, but not by much, and once the druid starts using revitalizes and CoT, the druid probably makes a better tank for practical use. The dragon will have the edge in ability to deal out melee damage, though CoT makes up for a large part of that, if not all of it. Both Dragon and Druid get 8 points per level in their main melee weapon, so the dragon isn't going to be hitting much more often or for more damage except via specials. As for armor, the difference is negligible.

Not saying some "balance" isn't needed for dragons. But all in all there are some very nifty abilities dragons have, that bipeds never will. Again, depending on your view/play style depends on how useful they are.

I think I can agree with some of what you're saying here. I don't think that dragons are gimped beyond repair. But we need more than just a little bit of balancing. We need something to do after we hit the level cap, some way of improving ourselves. Not to mention the fact that here we are, over a year into the game, and some of our basic abilities are just now getting fixed. Actually, I think that if, assuming these fixes actually work as expected, dragons had been at least this close to complete 6-9 months ago, or even at launch, you'd be hearing a lot less whining from dragon players. I don't expect the current round of fixes to make everything perfect, but anything will help at this point.

[Varangaard]

A good answer above, but I'll add some...

But the dragons are not a pure caster, they are multi-classed, or a partial of all three.

No. Dragons are just as multi-classed as a paladin, battlemage or chaos warrior could be said to be. You could say dragon adventurer is a prestige class, like all the boundary-jumping pure classes are, except we are without any of that actual prestige.

They get a tail whip attack.
There heals are abilities not spells.
They get abilities that mimic many spells (such as spiked scales).

Yes, tail whip is our only stun. For six seconds. With long recycle. Makes us just as much of a 'stunner' class as satyrs with their charge.

Of our heals, Refreshing Breeze rocks. When soloing on tier V regions it is many times the single thing that keeps me on my feet. With the long recycle, it also means my downtime is normally counted in how long it takes for the Ref Breeze to cycle.

Our spell mimicking abilities, as far as I can remember, are three. Firstly, Spiked Scales, which mimics Cloak of Thorns (which is actually an ability). See above post for details on SS. Secondly, Lasting Embers, which is actually an armor crystal questable at lvl 50, and it mimics Immolate. Only, it has 33% chance to land if our breath of fire happens to land and seems to be close to Immolate II in power - no chance to upgrade. The third ability is Gold Shield, which I think mimics a conjurer shield of some sort. Only, the cost to use it is so prohibitive we'll be hoarding several hours to gain back what we lost in single battle (assuming level-equivalent foes).

They get debuff abilities like Shamans, and Blight users.

I'll demystify our debuffs here. Snarl ability gives a singe foe an attack skill debuff. The very best of them was in the vicinity of -200 (gained near lvl 100). Staggering Howl is a single-foe delay adjustment ability (like Dispirit) but only up to 20%. Then we have two spells, Grazing Winds and Unrelenting winds, that give piddly ward debuffs on slash+primal (Grazing) or primal alone (Unrelenting). Ward debuffs affect evasion, not damage.

They get area attacks as breath weapons.
Ranged attacks as dragon reach.

See the dragon forum for a discussion on our breaths. We like them about as much as summoning classes like their Shining Blades epic. Reach is an average-damage attack on goodly recycle. It is designed for pulling, as it's range 50 tells. For real ranged combat, we use our primal bolts line.

Dragon is not a bad class however, why else would I have levelled it up to 100? It has potential. We can tank, agreed. I can solo a single tier V undead, and if I feel adventurous and have all my abilities recycled, maybe two or even three at once (never tried three, two is taking me close enough to death already). The latest blight server update fixes bugs in three of our abilities (Spiked Scales, Gold Rage, Ravage) which should make them at last land as much as originally intended, and in case of Spiked, make them work as damage shields should.

[Kulamata]

Dragon abilities seems to me to be ultimately an issue of fairness.

But I see it also, as I do nerfing, as a damaging business issue. If a new player tries to play a dragon, and finds it frustrating, then they do not switch to warrior, they say "lousy game" and leave.

Anecdotally, there was concern that "too many players would want to play dragons", so the class was made difficult, by gimping. So 60% of the paying players would play dragons instead of 30%... So what?

If they played, enjoyed, stayed, we all would have won.

[Varangaard]

Now that we've apparently concluded the dragon discussion, I'll return to topic. [:)]

As I've explained above, one beef I have with multiclassing is that it makes characters - imho - too powerful. The other is that it erodes definitions of pure classes. For example, cleric and healer are supposed to be the primary healers and buffers of Istaria, with full access to Life and Augmentation schools. However, if a multi-multi-multiclassed toon has taken either of those schools, and then waltzes around as a druid or spiritist (plus several other schools) he/she is just as good healer/buffer as the real thing. The only 'edge' these pure classes have are their nonmasterable abilities and more powerful (lvl 50+) versions of masterable abilities.

While this synergy all nice and good for solo combatants especially, I don't personally see why a druid or spiritist should be a perfect healer even if they have levelled the class to max. Or the other way around for that matter - healer has full access to spirit and blight lines.

In my opinion, classes should adhere to their assigned jobs more strictly, massive multiclassing nonwithstanding. On the spell front, perhaps they should either make access much more restricted (ie, enhances cleric/healer only), or effect the same policy as on abilities - double the level to master. In abilities, the amount of nonmasterable abilities should be increased, and the masterability of more poweful abilities should be restricted to 'metaschools'. Meaning, multicast and the likes inherit only amongst arcane casters, powerful melee attacks inherit to melee classes only, and so forth. The melee - ranged - mystic - arcane division I've already mentioned before. This of course serves to limit the overall power of one-biped armies as well.

However, this game has been out for over a year now. I doubt the developers have any will to effect major changes to the game in fear of cancellations. I fear even any changes that would make the game better on long run are weighted against the possibility of players leaving (not referring to my multiclassing suggestions here).

[Vahrokh]

I am not sure that it is proper to say stuff like:

"As I've explained above, one beef I have with multiclassing is that it makes characters - imho - too powerful"
"This of course serves to limit the overall power of one-biped armies as well."

and other similar things.


If I had been a bipedthe first thing coming in my mind would be: "why this one's peeing on my shoes?".

"Why someone whose gameplay and playing style is completely unrelated with mine feels like deciding that it's good to limit MY things?".

Naturally there would be lots of leeches that would deserve some 100 levels rollbacks but the game happily made it possible, it's not against the EULA.

And those who instead got 4 x 100 or more on their own? Nice people like Fhrain? Do they deserve that an extraneous that will have no negative consequence on him gets a scepter and decides that's just right to nerf their efforts? Not preventing but reducing what they achieved already absolutely legitimately?


I will briefly tell what will happen. Say it once, twice, 10, 100, 1000 times and probably they WILL be nerfed. Meanwhile the mobs will still require the original power to be killed - they were tailored on them after all - and the cash - exp cows like fyakkis will be upped too.

Now, become a shiny ancient. For once feel good - now you can finally kill your stuff and not suck savagely any more.

And enjoy legions of pissy nerfed bipeds starting in rebuttal other 100 threads about the goodness of nerfing ancients that in only 1 class got the power of multiclassers.
Without btw earning it.
Because an ancient won't have an higher rating, nor will "eat" or have to spend i.e. 70 millions exp. in the process of becoming powerfull. Nothing, all for free on a platinum platter at the end of just a quest. And with P A T H E T I C requirements.

Will this entitle to call for nasty nerfs?
After those days I am painfully realizing that too many dragons are making enemies of the bipeds. And that they won't forget. And I cannot sincerely not understand their feelings. They'd be as deadly bored as us without their things. Are we playing "the worse for all,thebetter for us"?

And that even who was not favorable to their nerf like me will be hit by their wrath and have to get the same nerfs back exactly as those who pissed them at first.

Please take some time to reflect on the long term consequences of gratuitos call for nerf on others.

There's leechers and lamers who deserve it. There's many old timers that don't.

[Phillip]

if they start nerfing multiclassing abilitites/spells etc i will have to go.

i played for the last 13 months only as an adventurer, no alts, and got 4x100 90% solo. it would be disheartening to have what's earned decreased.

i feel the best way to render more true class base is simply by adding epic quests to each school that will yield something class defining, and worthwhile, and only one quest per character, can only be used while in that form. this will make people pick the one class to stick with for the most part, expecially when it comes to fighting the WA.

[Varangaard]

And for the record, again, I have two biped alts. While one of them is pretty fresh level-wise, the other has been around for pretty long. So I don't need to be told how multiclassers would feel about limiting the choices as I can see it looking at mine.

About ARoP; I don't belive it will bring any significant boost to dragons. Early last year, it was hoped and believed the adult RoP would deliver the hatchlings from their gimp-hood. Well, it didn't. Only the retooling of our abilities (silver & gold) gave us some fighting chance - although at cost some still believe was not worth it. Now ancient RoP faces similar expectations, to level the play field. Most likely, it will not.

Multiclassing has been an intersting experiment in HZ, and not entirely successful. Unfortunately, experiments such as this should've been ran at beta, not live as is now happening. Things should have been retooled before HZ went gold. Similarly, the rethinking of the entire world - now done at server merge - should have taken place during beta.

Yes, it is true that there are many veteran players out there that would not deserve Tulga taking a second look at multiclassing. They've worked hard for their levels, planned things out, had fun while playing, and simply taken their characters where the game has allowed them to go. Lacking any other content, simply levelling more classes has become a pastime (and there's no denying that guildhunts are always great fun). However the amount of powerleveled Elnath-übertoons is probably just as large, and were HZ ever to curb multiclassing these would be the first to leave in masses. The loss of these powerlevelers is why Tulga will never alter multiclassing in significant ways.

For better or worse, HZ has to do with what it now has. I'll follow with interest how Tulga will handle the day when the average is 5x100 or more. The question is, why have different classes when everyone will end up with the same stats, skills and abilities?

edit: On second thought, I think there are several überped builds. Since there is some stuff that won't cross over effectively, one build revolves around arcane magic of fire/ice/energy/summoning and the related abilities. The other takes on Life, Spiritism, Nature and the rest, plus related abilities. Then there will be the curiosities that don't effectively inherit a lot of stuff (warrior for those wanting to gimp themselves) or those that revolve around nonmasterable stuff (one exists: the bloodmage).

[imported_Ssilmath]

Because, Varangaard, we don't all have the same skills...You find a lot of the Elnath fools have a similar skill set, but those of us who actually earn our levels have very different skill...You will find chaos warriors who have bolstered their abilities by leveling mage and warrior to 100...You'll find a spiritist that has taken spearman and healer so that they can melee and heal, thus being able to work alone, as their playing style warrants...here you have (Me) a paladin that is taking warrior for increased armor and some abilities, as well as druid for the ability to use attack spells and cleric for more healing power...we multiclass so that we can tune our prefered clas...only Elnoobs take multiple classes that are always similar...

Quit lumping us biped together, and quit trying to take awayone of the mainreasons that HZ is better than other games...the ability to sculpt your prefered class is a great feature...

And no, multiclassed bipeds are not overpowered either...I just think that you whining dragons don't know how to play your chosen class...I've seen level 77 dragons soloing level 97 mith gollies, which I couldn't touch until the late 80's...so don't try to tell me dragons are gimps cause they can't multiclass...

The main problem is the rampant powerleveling, not the rampant multiclassing...therein lies the whole "Grey characters" and "Uberped" idea...

[imported_Twelvebagger]

Okay, time to chime in with my inconsequential opinion.

The concept of multiclassing is not flawed in itself. When looking just at biped power and not comparing it to dragons, I think the only thing (if they could start over, which they can't so it's pointless) they should have re-thought was the subset of masterable abilities. To me, there are certain class-defining abilities that simply shouldn't have been made accessible. I don't think they should nerf it now, however, for the welfare of the game.

Secondarily, I don't, for the life of me, understand why advocating a major nerf for 90% of the adventurer population has any positive effect of the customers who pay for this game.

I have, and I will continue, to support the idea that Dragons are underpowered (for lack of a better word) and something should be done to correct this. However, if you are underpowered, whatdoes that have to do with those that aren't. Raise the weak, do not gimp the strong.


In closing, It's humorous and pitiful to see peoplebeing sorude to each otheron these boards instead of having a civil discussion, which is what the original poster intended on, despite the poor suggestion.

I thought all the children played on Bnet.

-12-

[Fireclaw]

Okay, time to chime in with my inconsequential opinion.

The concept of multiclassing is not flawed in itself. When looking just at biped power and not comparing it to dragons, I think the only thing (if they could start over, which they can't so it's pointless) they should have re-thought was the subset of masterable abilities. To me, there are certain class-defining abilities that simply shouldn't have been made accessible. I don't think they should nerf it now, however, for the welfare of the game.

Secondarily, I don't, for the life of me, understand why advocating a major nerf for 90% of the adventurer population has any positive effect of the customers who pay for this game.

I have, and I will continue, to support the idea that Dragons are underpowered (for lack of a better word) and something should be done to correct this. However, if you are underpowered, whatdoes that have to do with those that aren't. Raise the weak, do not gimp the strong.

-12-

I agree. About the only thing I would change regarding multiclassing is making the ratings penalty mean a bit more so that players with extremely high ratings (ie 140+ etc.) level slower. It should be virtually impossible to get 14x100, and 6x100 should take more effort than it does now.

Dragons of course need a massive boost in combat ability, as well as some form of continuing way to improve so that we don't hit the level cap and run out of content.

[Jaraiden]

Forget about dragons. TulgAE has and is just slapping together long-absent content and . . . . whatever. It would have been much better to have released an expansion pack with Dragons and level cap 101 to 120. This would have allowed them to finish the game with proper content for tiers I to V (quests, items, effects of multiclassing when taken to the extreme by powergamers).

Forget about dragons.

All of you should know that in traditional fantasy game, multiclassing offers benefits and penalties . . . . give and take. AE, in 2003, opted to minimize the penalties.

Players took this unlimited feature and ran rampant with it, taking optimal routes to make an "ideal" character - roleplaying vision or powerbuild. These routes centered on effective XPing/time - premerge Cursed wolves and postmerge tier III gem golems/Elnath.

So AE created the problem TulgAE (the same team or not) inherited. AE, then, said they would make class adjustments and have yet to follow through on their August 2004 update.

Again, there are no nerfs! Players are not engaged in PvP conflict where they are concerned about their character's abilties to fight effectively. The only "PvP" style conflict is showing dominance over other races and builds - such as in combine farming monsters to auction their drops. So in a dragon-less Horizons, this would not be an issue as all players would have the option to use game mechanics to build a character to achieve this dominance.

Oh, remember the Reavers back in January? Would you rather have that class be restored? Istaria filled with Reavers would really lend to an enjoyable game, right?

Horizons is PvE. Thus TulgAE can easily adjust their relative strength with respect to the players. They can buff the necroflies and fyakki. They can limit travel to the Satyr Islands. Unfortunately they have opted not to. And remember, shortly after post-merge, they were weakening overpowered monsters (and it seems some are as character Evasion seems ineffective).

So, why are any complaining about "nerfing?" Horizons 2.0is still effectively in beta. All of you should realize that. Sure, as Kulmata (spelling?) stated we as players will take offense to weakening, but surely those players not in a selfish mode of "I wanna uber l33t for my toon" should recognize that the environment their character is in is flexible - it can be lowered to provide the same fighting challenge to their now adjusted character.

Now, instead of the above, TulgAE is fumbling around with biped adjustments AND dragon playability. That was their mistake by releasing the game with unfinished dragons (and Monks) that don't match lore. So bear with them (or wait it out) for them to finally get their act together and polish Horizons into something enjoyable by ALL players.

I challenge all players that are veterans to other MMORPGs to think and justify the unlimited multiclassing to the roleplaying aspect in Horizons, theMMORPG, and the view that characters should have weaknesses, as well as strengths, for some distingushing "class uniqueness." The current multiclass system by TugAE does not have that. Order or Chaos, it matters little, as AE has encouraged roleplaying(and character to character interaction) for players (you know that RP thing in MMORPG).

Oh, now had Horizons been released without dragons, TulgAE would have - or should - a finished game by now. Dragons, when properly introduced, would have been balanced with very weak hatchlings, tough hatchling RoP to adulthood (mostly solo), average but weak adults, very tough adult RoP to Ancient (mostly solo), and strong Ancients. All of the above relative to the biped side based on same playing effort (invested playing time).

Sadly, AE thought of greedand hyped "Option to play as a dragon" just for money in December 2003. Merry Christmas.

AE and now TulgAE is the cause of this problem, which is festered by frustrated players - those that like the current "power" status of certain races and builds and those that want their playing experience more similar to the former.

Thank Kumu and Maltavorn and Vahrokh and Fireclaw for their efforts. Despite AE/TulgAE's bumblings, Horizons is a better game. Players that look at the broad playing scope of Horizons would see that. Those that don't . . . . well enjoy the FPS that Horizons has become, that and your toon's power status.

[Vesuvius]

Has 'rampant multiclassing' caused Horizons problems?

Yes.

Is there anything that should be done about it at this point?

No.

Why?

Because to do so would be the end of the game. No one is going to continue playing horizons because they nerf multiclassing. Plenty of people will quit if they do.

So what can they do?

Give dragons something to do the same with and then provide content that can challenge these powerful players. Those who choose to remain 'pure' can group to accomplish the same things.

And on a final note,

I dont think its very fair to mention a select few people when saying 'horizons is now a better game'. There are many people who have put in alot of time and effort into improving the game, and that includes both dragons and bipeds alike.

[Phillip]

i don't see how multiclassing is a problem in general.

i don't see it at all in game where it creates problems. people seem to enjoy picking up a new school, learning new skills and FYI: class defining abilities DO NOT TRANSFER.

once you get past 4 schools it don't matter anyway. people usually take schools to up their main class' stat/skills.

multiclassing is fun. about the only fun thing to do right now.

[imported_Ssilmath]

Phillip, you and I are in complete agreement...

Funny how the ones who label us as 'Grey' and talk about the class defining skills that all transfer tend to have one class...DRAG...

[Vahrokh]

Funny how the ones who label us as 'Grey' and talk about the class defining skills that all transfer tend to have one class...DRAG...

I have it (the DRAG) but I agree with you and Philip.

Horizons is different because of novel concepts like freedom on your character (instead of forcing raising a myriad of "half characters", none of them really what you'd like to be for real and completely).

Maybe in a 2.0 release they could as well get rid of rating in exchange of not inheriting on a new taken class the full power of the other classes or something.

But still the possibilities and freedom it gives are a big idea.

[Phillip]

not all dragons are in agreement with most of the dragons on here who are against multiclassing (no, they're just suggesting, that's all). personally, i understand why they feel the way they do. the approach is not good, however.

i think it would just suck to play a dragon in HZ. end of.

the only solution is to give dragons the same chance to multiclass. let them get there on their own merits. i can't see someone sitting down and trying to figure how they will match biped by any other design.

creativity isn't HZ's strong point.

[Vlisson]

@Varangaard wow good thoughts! i fully agree to your opinion

@all why do you always turn such things in Dragon vs Bipeds? only to flame this threats and get them closed?

multiclassing is an interesting feature of HZ but it have to be limited! to much masterable abilities, to much masterable spells

the pro of multiclassing: spending more time in hz, dont have an end-time game

but a game needs spezialisations, i need this

[Vesuvius]

i don't see how multiclassing is a problem in general.

i don't see it at all in game where it creates problems. people seem to enjoy picking up a new school, learning new skills and FYI: class defining abilities DO NOT TRANSFER.

once you get past 4 schools it don't matter anyway. people usually take schools to up their main class' stat/skills.

multiclassing is fun. about the only fun thing to do right now.

Just because something is fun doesnt mean it wont cause problems. The issue with HZ multiclassing is that it allows for such a large gap in power (and Im not referring to dragons here) between players that it becomesimpossible toproportion future content difficultyfairly to the playerbase. If you make things too easy the uberpeds mow through it and then say 'we're bored'. If you make things too difficult (aka, scaled to accomidate a group of uberpeds), then the single classed level 100s are left in the dust, unable to compete. If you make some for each, and there is anything worth getting for the 'lower end of the spectrum' then there is nothing to stop the uber people from blatently outmatching the 'regular' people.

Multiclassing removed the definition of what is 'high level'. Im sure EQ would have been a blast if you could have been a cleric/bard/necromancer/enchanter/rouge/shaman too, but it would have ruined the game.

As far as 'class defining abilities do not transfer'. BS. Syphon, Multicast, Instant Heal, Dispirit Foe, Critical Strike, Smash - these all are examples of class defining abilities, especially multicast and dispirit foe.

And for a requote, you even state it yourself Phillip:

once you get past 4 schools it don't matter anyway. people usually take schools to up their main class' stat/skills

Exactly. When a character is running around with 1000+ in every stat, 1000+ in every skill, either a full line of heals or plate armor, full line of nature spells, full line of spirit spells, with some in the arcane lines or viceversa depending on the current school, can ressurrect, throw out a full line of T5gifts/enhances,and can critical strike for 5200+ with a maul not to mention other special attacks... ect ect

Im sorry, but that has lost its class definition. There is a massive difference between a multiclassing system that lets you specialize your character the way you want and a system that lets you be everything. Being everything is NOT being specialized.

You no longer have 'Hey, Im a caster. I cant take much damageand I chose to have some extra mind magic at the expense of ice, but I sure can dish it out, not to mention Im great for crowd control" or "Im a hybrid. I took up some extranatureso my nature abilities are a little stronger, but Im not as good of a tank as a warrior,however my versitility makes up for it" or "Im a healer. I can keep you alive in even the thickest situations, and if you do happen to fall, I can bring you back into the fight in no time. I also can augment you with powerful enhancements and gifts".

Instead now you have "Im a bada**, I can do it all. You need healing? I got it. You need buffs? Got those too. Oh, I have over 2400 ac too so dont worry about having to tank while I slaughter the 40 mobs around me with my superior magic skills"

Multiclassing has probably kept the game alive yes, but it hasnt come without its costs, even ifsome of thosecosts havent completely revealed themselves yet.Horizons will never have theaspect to grouping that makes it so much fun, that is, having to rely on others for things that you yourself cannotdo and they in turn rely on you for your /personal/ abilities.Insead, its going to be replaced by a much lamer "I cant handle this, but 3x me can".

So again, while Im not saying multiclassing needs to be nerfed or even changed (though I do think it would be good for the game to only allow a single 120 to be in effect at a time), people shouldnt be ignorant of the problems associated with it.

The only thing they can do thats even close to a solution is to give dragons something similar. That way, at least everyone has the same opprotunity to be on an equal playing field.

[Phillip]

"Just because something is fun doesnt mean it wont cause problems. The issue with HZ multiclassing is that it allows for such a large gap in power (and Im not referring to dragons here) between players that it becomesimpossible toproportion future content difficultyfairly to the playerbase."

ok again, right now it's the only fun and right now, i don't see it as aproblem. yes there is such gap in power but, that's what multiclassing does. that's why it's about multiclassing and not singleclass like other games. if you think singleclass, your mind is no longer on the same page.

"If you make things too easy the uberpeds mow through it and then say 'we're bored'. If you make things too difficult (aka, scaled to accomidate a group of uberpeds), then the single classed level 100s are left in the dust, unable to compete. If you make some for each, and there is anything worth getting for the 'lower end of the spectrum' then there is nothing to stop the uber people from blatently outmatching the 'regular' people."

first of all, give us things. second, give us things to the point where we can say we're bored. third, this game isn't about singleclassing, so those who play, who can read hopefully, would KNOW that it isn't about singleclassing (it in the friggin' manual, on the website, everywhere), and personally, i don't see the bulk of people, adventurers as a whole, to not like multiclassing. it's the lack of things and craftcentric bs that led tothe mass exodus.

"Multiclassing removed the definition of what is 'high level'. Im sure EQ would have been a blast if you could have been a cleric/bard/necromancer/enchanter/rouge/shaman too, but it would have ruined the game."

you can't ruin the game sinceEQ got content out the ears. EQ is singleclassing, that's why you need the meat market, group spam to go hunt. in HZ one single multiclassed biped can hunt spiders and crap, but it is difficult to do something more such as WA mobs, or say, real QUESTS, which we got none. EQ and HZ can't compare. there's no merit between the two.

"As far as 'class defining abilities do not transfer'. BS. Syphon, Multicast, Instant Heal, Dispirit Foe, Critical Strike, Smash - these all are examples of class defining abilities, especially multicast and dispirit foe."

uh, that there tells me you do not have enough merit to even talk about multclassing and that is essential.

"Exactly. When a character is running around with 1000+ in every stat, 1000+ in every skill, either a full line of heals or plate armor, full line of nature spells, full line of spirit spells, with some in the arcane lines or viceversa depending on the current school, can ressurrect, throw out a full line of T5gifts/enhances,and can critical strike for 5200+ with a maul not to mention other special attacks... ect ect"

what are you talking about? do all people run around with mauls and plate armor or something?

"Im sorry, but that has lost its class definition. There is a massive difference between a multiclassing system that lets you specialize your character the way you want and a system that lets you be everything. Being everything is NOT being specialized."

1)where is there something about specializing in this game? did i miss something? what is specialized to multiclassing? who came up with this specialized concept?
2) you can not be everything even if you take all schools to 100. you can do some stuff some the schools gained, but not the essential stuff.

"You no longer have 'Hey, Im a caster. I cant take much damageand I chose to have some extra mind magic at the expense of ice, but I sure can dish it out, not to mention Im great for crowd control" or "Im a hybrid. I took up some extranatureso my nature abilities are a little stronger, but Im not as good of a tank as a warrior,however my versitility makes up for it" or "Im a healer. I can keep you alive in even the thickest situations, and if you do happen to fall, I can bring you back into the fight in no time. I also can augment you with powerful enhancements and gifts".

that's why it's a game of multiclassing, isnt' it?

"Instead now you have "Im a bada**, I can do it all. You need healing? I got it. You need buffs? Got those too. Oh, I have over 2400 ac too so dont worry about having to tank while I slaughter the 40 mobs around me with my superior magic skills"

Zzz......

"Multiclassing has probably kept the game alive yes, but it hasnt come without its costs, even ifsome of thosecosts havent completely revealed themselves yet.Horizons will never have theaspect to grouping that makes it so much fun, that is, having to rely on others for things that you yourself cannotdo and they in turn rely on you for your /personal/ abilities.Insead, its going to be replaced by a much lamer "I cant handle this, but 3x me can".

where did you come up with this stuff? there are plenty of things a multi 24x100 schooler can't do. at what costs are you talking about? there's grouping involved a plenty when it comes to killing WA mobs, freeing cities, raid the machines etc. NO ONE PLAYER can do it alone, ever. and i hate to have to group to do something on a regular basis, like hunting. if i want that i will goplay with the group-r-us kids. the same geektards who consistantly asked for "bonus XPs" and all the bs that led to the elnoob leechers of today.

"So again, while Im not saying multiclassing needs to be nerfed or even changed (though I do think it would be good for the game to only allow a single 120 to be in effect at a time), people shouldnt be ignorant of the problems associated with it."

i don't see a problem associate with it. i see people loving it. i see people cherishing it. i see it helping the game. the only people who talk down about it are some suggestive dragons and multicrafting biped (the crafting-is-god type). ifmulticlassing never existed this game would have stomp through chapt 7 months ago.

"The only thing they can do thats even close to a solution is to give dragons something similar. That way, at least everyone has the same opprotunity to be on an equal playing field"

uh...i have been saying that all along, dude.