Checking the rampant multiclassing

[Vesuvius]

You did the classic, 'quote line by line and avoid the overall point of the post' phillip. Great job makinga rubbishpost that doesnt even accurately respond to mine. And I really thank you for analyzing the obvious for me 'hz isnt a singleclassing game', even repeating things I said like I was making them as points against you when they agree with you.

Here. Ill make it really simple for you so then perhaps you can understand.

I dont disagree with multiclassing, nor am I calling for it to be nerfed, I never have. I do acknowledge both its benefits andpitfalls though.

So annoying when people treat individual sentances like they are entire posts. Especially annoying when they completely miss the argument behind the post after doing so.

[evilkarl]

I agree. About the only thing I would change regarding multiclassing is making the ratings penalty mean a bit more so that players with extremely high ratings (ie 140+ etc.) level slower. It should be virtually impossible to get 14x100, and 6x100 should take more effort than it does now.

I'm going to make a wild assumption here and that is you haven't played a rating 140+ char. If you had you would know the XP penalty is massive. I'm sewing my pure monk patch into my quilt at present level 84 rated 155 and getting 2k for a level 96 red vexator that I only have a 40% chance of beating. As opposed to the level 96 player who would probably get closer to 10k for the same mob.

The rating XP penalty works well however it is more often than not circumvented using group and/or multiple mob bonus. I know I can get heaps more xp faster if I group with friends and just kill groups.

[evilkarl]

As far as 'class defining abilities do not transfer'. BS. Syphon, Multicast, Instant Heal, Dispirit Foe, Critical Strike, Smash - these all are examples of class defining abilities, especially multicast and dispirit foe.

I just want to comment on this point. It depends on how you define class defining abilities as to if these are an example of class defining ability.

To me a class defining ability is an ability one class gains that no other class in the game gains. If we look at your list...

Syphon - Spiritist, Bloodmage, Spirit disciple, Reaver (i think)
Multicast - Mage, Conjuror
Instant Heal - Dragons, Cleric, Healer, Druid, Shamen
Dispirit foe - Yep only cleric earns this one
Critical Strike - Chaos Warrior, Monk, Fire disciple, storm disciple, spirit disciple, ice disciple, Warrior, Paladin, Knight of creation, Reaver, Beserker, Spearman (and maybe some others I forgot)
Smash - Healer, Druid, Cleric, Guardian

So what is the imperssion I get from this list above? With the exception of Dispirit foe the list of abilities you listed are not class specific they are all shared amongst classes.

Further more unless you are using a class that learns the ability in its natural progression then you will only recieve half the version you normally have.

Please stop the sweeping generalisations

[Vesuvius]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Vesuvius wrote:
As far as 'class defining abilities do not transfer'. BS. Syphon, Multicast, Instant Heal, Dispirit Foe, Critical Strike, Smash - these all are examples of class defining abilities, especially multicast and dispirit foe.


I just want to comment on this point. It depends on how you define class defining abilities as to if these are an example of class defining ability.

To me a class defining ability is an ability one class gains that no other class in the game gains. If we look at your list...

Syphon - Spiritist, Bloodmage, Spirit disciple, Reaver (i think)
Multicast - Mage, Conjuror
Instant Heal - Dragons, Cleric, Healer, Druid, Shamen
Dispirit foe - Yep only cleric earns this one
Critical Strike - Chaos Warrior, Monk, Fire disciple, storm disciple, spirit disciple, ice disciple, Warrior, Paladin, Knight of creation, Reaver, Beserker, Spearman (and maybe some others I forgot)
Smash - Healer, Druid, Cleric, Guardian

So what is the imperssion I get from this list above? With the exception of Dispirit foe the list of abilities you listed are not class specific they are all shared amongst classes.

Further more unless you are using a class that learns the ability in its natural progression then you will only recieve half the version you normally have.

Please stop the sweeping generalisations

Class defining abilities dont have to be limited to a single school to be defining. Horizons has alot of very similar schools, so it isnt surprising that some abilities overlap considering the poor job ofschool differenciation to begin with.Syphon is a defining spirit ability, just as multicast is a defining arcane ability. When a warrior uses smash and instant healor aranger uses multicast, the littledefinition that existsis lost.

I used critical strike in the sense that it is a pure melee ability, something a cleric or mage really shouldnt have.

Does it really matter from a balance perspective?

Well, with a few abilities such as multicast and possibly dispirit foe, perhaps, but over all no. It does however go to show that it hurts diversity and character definition, irregardless of the abilities being lower level.

[Phillip]

"I dont disagree with multiclassing, nor am I calling for it to be nerfed, I never have."

yes, like the other dragons who never have. but geezuz, do you guys actually see what you are writing?

"I do acknowledge both its benefits andpitfalls though."

what pitfalls? to the poor reject who chose to stay single classed? and what's this character definition thing? how exactly is a game about multiclassing and character definition go together?

all you get in the end is theclass, a player with knowledge learned from other schools to aid his main, but his main remains most important.

[Vahrokh]

To me a class defining ability is an ability one class gains that no other class in the game gains. If we look at your list...

Syphon - Spiritist, Bloodmage, Spirit disciple, Reaver (i think)

My alt is reaver and I can confirm he gets Syphon.
Does it makes him less "defined"? No. He "inherits" from spiritist and I feel it's in theme that he can adsorb nearby mob (mobs since I have area Syphon too) health to make up for his lesser healing capabilities when pure classed - and is on 5 minute timer. He loses other spiritist thingies anyway.

Critical strike, like smash, by their very names don't sound "so" class defining and the name already does not suggest aprecise and limited application.

Multicast does instead, and that, and only that and similarly limited scope abilities (like some other classes +speed bonuses) will possibly become not masterable in the future for what I heard from some devs (unofficial statements).

[imported_Ssilmath]

To the poor dragons who have no idea what they are talking about, here are some "Class defining abilities"

Ethereal Blade, Life Strike, Banish Armor, Cloak of Thorns, Aura of the Bear, Group Ethereal Blade, Power Strike, Throw Spear, Stinger, Hillside Bastion...

These are for the most part, limited to a single class and are quite powerful, but as soon as you change classes, you lose that ability...those are class defining...

I really don't think any dragonsshould be telling us what is a class ability, even if they have a biped alt...until you have spent nearly a year playing a biped, you really have no room to talk...just like I don't have any room to talk about dragon abilities or spells...I know what a few of them are, but not all and certainly not what they all do...

And about that power gap...Despite not multiclassing, I have seen some dragons do things no 'multiclassed' biped can do...they just had figured out how to maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses...right now I don't see any dragons even trying to find any workaround, they want to be the fire breathing, flying equivilant to a warrior/cleric/mage with none of the penalties...Oh, here...you can have druid on a platinum platter too, oh great flying biped...

If Elnath were taken out of the picture, powerleveling would be a little less rampant, and if powerleveling could be taken out, the there would be far fewer 4x100 or 10x100 or whatever...as it is, my 100/56/56 has fought and killed mobs solo that some 6x100's don't even dare to look at...cause I know my character and can use it effectively...<Shrugs> Multiclassing helps, yes, but it is not the massive power up all you dragons out there think it to be...next time, get a clue before posting on this subject again...

[imported_tjl]

Syphon - Spiritist, Bloodmage, Spirit disciple, Reaver (i think)
Multicast - Mage, Conjuror
Instant Heal - Dragons, Cleric, Healer, Druid, Shamen
Dispirit foe - Yep only cleric earns this one
Critical Strike - Chaos Warrior, Monk, Fire disciple, storm disciple, spirit disciple, ice disciple, Warrior, Paladin, Knight of creation, Reaver, Beserker, Spearman (and maybe some others I forgot)
Smash - Healer, Druid, Cleric, Guardian


Please stop the sweeping generalisations

fusion burn?

[Varangaard]

So what is the imperssion I get from this list above? With the exception of Dispirit foe the list of abilities you listed are not class specific they are all shared amongst classes.

And if you didn't undersand it before now, I see it as part of the problem. Many abilities fit the bill of a class defining ability quite well, yet aren't defining the classes. They are learned by many and/or are masterable and inheritable by the rest.

And to reply to another question, multiclassing and character definition go together quite well if you want to. Just to throw in an example, has anyone ever played the good old Final Fantasy Tactics (not the Advance version)? The job system there allows you to move from one class to another, yet you may bring skills you have learned in other classes to your current one. It is just restricted in a manner that doesn't allow you to become, to loan a phrase, an überped. Granted, FFT is a console RPG (single-player, finite game) and HZ is a MMOG (multiplayer, open-ended and potentially infinite) so their systems cannot be that easily directly compared, but FFT system gives an excellent example how class definition and customization go together.

[evilkarl]

Ethereal Blade, Life Strike, Banish Armor, Cloak of Thorns, Aura of the Bear, Group Ethereal Blade, Power Strike, Throw Spear, Stinger, Hillside Bastion...

Stinger is class defining/specific but it is masterable. Kind of an odd ability for a spiritist to have to start with.

[imported_Ssilmath]

Hmm...been a while since I played with spiritist...I do remember a couple really good and nonmasterable abilities though that would be class defining, thought one was named Stinger...

Anyways...

[evilkarl]

Dispate is a non masterable spiritist one as is soul shock

Allocate health, soul link, siphon, area siphon and spirit walk are for some reason all masterable

[imported_Ssilmath]

That's the one, Soul Shock...

I do agree that it is odd that the others are masterable...I am all for redoing which abilities are masterable, some seem like odd choices, but aren't that unbalancing either, imho...

[PJ]

Well, with a few abilities such as multicast and possibly dispirit foe, perhaps, but over all no. It does however go to show that it hurts diversity and character definition, irregardless of the abilities being lower level.

I still dont' necessarily agree with that. Sure in extreme cases of widespread multiclassing, and by extreme I mean a world where everyone has 10+ classes maxed out, this might be true. But that isnt' even close to the case. Most people don't have the stomach to take that many classes, the rating penalty is prohibitive. Being able to multiclass which schools and however little or many schools as you wish increases diversity. Sure some school are chosen more often than others, certain combos, even entire builds, but that is a symptom not a problem. Not all classes are equal (some are decidedly unequal), and when you have 2 real healing classes compared to like 15 melee classes naturally you're going to see some repitition of those 2 classes. Even if you take every school out there, you still can only be one school at a time, and choice of school is huge. But then I guess we all look alike to dragons, even though we're not.

All of these "problems" and "issues" people keep raising about multiclassing, are symptoms, not the actual problems. They are symptoms of weak/unfinished classes, of distorted mob balance due to the skill gains mobs receive, of the enourmous exp fountain that post merge farming has become, of the overall boredom that permeates the world of High level characters.

[Phillip]

my main is a paladin and i have 3 other schools - Spiritist, Healer and Zerker.

in combat, i use 90% of my paladin skills &abilities. i use the2 heal lines from Healer that transfers but they have been halved, and on long timers ie i don't really need them. i use Parox from Spiritist,3 debuffs and personally, if i took 100 levels of that i deserve 4 spells. Syphons and Area Syphons are halved as well and don't work very well on high end mobs (they do 0 damage). for Zerker i gained1 passive ability that i can easily do without. i do not have an active ability with zerker.

so overall, my paladin is very much a paladin. in a multiclassing game, that's not bad for character definition.

[imported_Twelvebagger]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Vesuvius wrote:
Well, with a few abilities such as multicast and possibly dispirit foe, perhaps, but over all no. It does however go to show that it hurts diversity and character definition, irregardless of the abilities being lower level.




All of these "problems" and "issues" people keep raising about multiclassing, are symptoms, not the actual problems. They are symptoms of weak/unfinished classes, of distorted mob balance due to the skill gains mobs receive, of the enourmous exp fountain that post merge farming has become, of the overall boredom that permeates the world of High level characters.

Agreed, and good post.

[Merriweather Honeythorn]

"I dont disagree with multiclassing, nor am I calling for it to be nerfed, I never have."

yes, like the other dragons who never have. but geezuz, do you guys actually see what you are writing?

"I do acknowledge both its benefits andpitfalls though."

what pitfalls? to the poor reject who chose to stay single classed? and what's this character definition thing? how exactly is a game about multiclassing and character definition go together?

all you get in the end is theclass, a player with knowledge learned from other schools to aid his main, but his main remains most important.

OI! I may be a JoAT on my "main" but she isn't a "single classed reject" because I'm all about crafting thank you very much. I have an Adult Dragon, I have another char that will ever only have a single craft school and will still multiclass Adventure schools *very* little, and yet a fourth character who will also only have one Adventure school to her name and zero crafts.

But "poor reject"? I think it's BS that in order to retaliate to someones post you have to make a sweeping generality to attempt to insult them.

For the record, not all of us "poor reject, single classed" characters are that way because we are all about crafting and eh, adventuring is just for breaks. I prefer my characters single classed Adventurers because *gasp* that is how I enjoy playing. Hard concept I know but there you go. I'm also not one of the ones screaming that multiclassing should be removed or limited; quite the opposite actually. So I'd appreciate the sweeping generalization insults to be kept to yourself thanks.[:)]

[gusi]

@all why do you always turn such things in Dragon vs Bipeds? only to flame this threats and get them closed?

Don't mean to be rude, as English is most prolly a second or even third language for you. But I'd advise you spelt 'thread' correctly. 'Thread' and 'Threat' have two compeltely different meanings, and I'm sure you do not intend to insist on the latter.

For this thread, I'd give it a 1/2 star out of 5. Not because of the suggestion, but because of the content.

I used to be one of these people,but I've gotten over it now. Don't you people have anything better to do? Stop comparing dragons to bipeds and bipeds to dragons. Stop accusing others of being the most powerful, and thus have no integrity (UNLESS they are an Elnoob, as Ssilmath thoughtfully names them). Stop being the trolls of these boards. I'm not going to say to go create a biped or dragon and see the differences, as some seem to think that will solve many problems.

Why not work together and try to reach a reasonable common goal? My current goal is to rid the game of as many bugs as possible. Go check the 'Game Bugs' forum and you'll see. If I notice a bug, it goes directly there, if it's not commented on within a week, a support ticket gets sent in.Heck, I even go searching for bugs.

On a final note. You all have prolly heard of AE's (won't say Tulga, because they haven't said anything yet) plans for the future. ARoP, lairs, etc. I didn't see class, or even multi-class systemic changes. So, this suggestion is not necessarily bad. It is just out of timing - likewhen DaVinci invented (drew up plans at least) a helicopter in the 15th Century..

[Vesuvius]

To the poor dragons who have no idea what they are talking about, here are some "Class defining abilities"

Ethereal Blade, Life Strike, Banish Armor, Cloak of Thorns, Aura of the Bear, Group Ethereal Blade, Power Strike, Throw Spear, Stinger, Hillside Bastion...

These are for the most part, limited to a single class and are quite powerful, but as soon as you change classes, you lose that ability...those are class defining...

I really don't think any dragonsshould be telling us what is a class ability, even if they have a biped alt...until you have spent nearly a year playing a biped, you really have no room to talk...just like I don't have any room to talk about dragon abilities or spells...I know what a few of them are, but not all and certainly not what they all do...

GMAFB. What classes get exactly what abilities is completely irrelavent. I was quite aware more than one school got some of the abilities I listed.The point is that too many of these abilities overlap and master due to the way the multiclassing school system works.

Ressurrect is a class defining ability for 'divine' class types (paladins, clerics, and healers fall into that category in horizons). And it serves as an excellent example, even if it is in technicality a spell. More than half of the available schools are able to cast this with 10 levels in cleric. In turn it loses its 'specialness' thanks to how horizons' multiclassing/school systemfunctions.Pretty soon, dragons will have ressurrect as well. While I agree with this considering the current situation with ressurrection ability, it is just as silly as a gaurdian ressurrecting someone.

Sure two characters may be'completely' different setups, but chances are, especially as the number of schools increases, the role the those two characters fill becomes closer and closer to being the same.To me, that is a pitfall to multiclassing because I like havingcertain people play certain specific roles. I think its more interesting than 'everyone plays everyrole'. Regardless, its not going to change. Nor am I going to try and push for it to change, the reasons for which I have already stated.

::Shrug::

Dont really care at this point.Being that Im not trying to change anything here there really isnt any point arguing oversmall details.

[PJ]

Sure two characters may be'completely' different setups, but chances are, especially as the number of schools increases, the role the those two characters fill becomes closer and closer to being the same.To me, that is a pitfall to multiclassing because I like havingcertain people play certain specific roles. I think its more interesting than 'everyone plays everyrole'. Regardless, its not going to change. Nor am I going to try and push for it to change, the reasons for which I have already stated.

To me it doesn't work quite that way. As the number of schools increase, the number of roles a character CAN play goes up. In solo, yes you play all the roles (and its both fun and challenging), but when it comes to a group people the roles are divided up equally. In any well rungroup you play A role (or maybe 2 depending on group size and composition), not ALL roles. If you are the healer, regardless of what other classes you may have, you're the healer. You heal/cleanse/purify/rez group members. You do not play other roles like nuker or crowd control unless the it really hits the fan. If you're running around casting Thunder or Eth Parox or Spirit Bolt and your groupmates are dying because of it well, you sure as hell aint grouping with me next time. Regardless of how "Uber" you are you can't play every role to the fullest at the same time.

Taking on multiple classes does not somehow eliminate the roles of group members from Horizons, what it does do is increase the flexibility of the members of your group. This way its easy for your members to quickly take on additional roles or switch roles as circumstances dictate. In a world of single classing, if your healer CTD's your SOL, in this world if your healer crashes, you move your druid formerly on primary crowd controler secondary healer to primary healer secondary crowd controler. Sure you're group has lost the power of a member, but its alot better than having no primary healer at all.