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Thread: Game balance and character-system

  1. #1

    Default Game balance and character-system



    Horizons has a very interesting and diverse character-system with many different and well-balanced classes to choose from. Even multi-classing is possible to create unique characters with interesting options. This is a point that makes a distinction between Horizons and most other games and is very much appreciated by the players. While you can have different opinions about multi-classing I believe that it is much appreciated by most players. The advantage of a system like that being that even players with precious little time to play (like myself) can develop a capable character that makes fun playing. On the other hand hardore-players also have their share of fun, since they do not reach 100th level andbe done with it. They can invest their time in their beloved character and start multi-classing being able to further enhance it. But currently there is a development taking place that concerns many players.

    The reason being, that the current character-system hassome kind of"flaw" that breaks apart former character-balanceand allows for the creation of a kind of super-powerful character. Those characters are on one hand almost invulnerable to even vastnumbers of the most dangerous foes and on the other hand defy any common reason ofa fantasy game. So great is the advantage, that few players can deny the benefitsand develop their characters the same way.

    One reason being, that due to the bonus for multiple enemies it has become possible to reach 100th level in 5-10 classes virtually overnight. This has been somewhat fixed already, by limiting the bonus. The damage has already been done, though.

    The other reason being, that it is possible to combine the powers of life/nature with spirit/blight. The result being a cleric, with full-plate armor, all healing spells and abilities, allnature spells and allspirit and blight spellsat their disposal. Such characters have the best protection in the game, can stun and root and cast dark cyclone and have the powers to drain life and throw spells that ignore an enemy?s armor. A deadly battle-tank that is much superior to any other class or combination of classes. The other variant being a druid with the cloak of thorns ability, that normally could not stand in the middle of a horde of dangerous mobs, since he wears only leather armor and his life and nature spells alone would not be enough to survive. With spirit magic he simply uses ethereal leech or paroxysm while waiting for the mobs to die around him or deal out additional devastating damage at will.

    Such characters are having all advantages, making up foralldisadvantages, being most versatile of them all, having all augmentations, being almost invulnerable for the time when ethereal paroxysm works, healing himself while dealing out considerable damage at the same time. If that isn't enough healing himself with his life spells he has full access to. Of course he can also stun androot with nature spells and weaken his enemies with blight spellsbut rarely has to use either one or the other since he simply gets through rather well without them. Even when stunned,a situationmost deadly for any other class, they may still live and see another day and even kill their foes while beinghelpless- their paroxysm still working and perhapscloak of thorns and regrowth as well. Being able to heal, debuff and cast the next draining spell the instant they can act again.

    Beside the detrimental effects on game-balance this isn't logical in any way from the view of common sense. The character system knows some interesting classes that are chosen for their healing abilities likehealer,cleric,druid,paladin,ranger andguardian. These classes tend to study healing spells at the cost of only moderate or even outright reduced offensive abilities. These classes make sense in a fantasy game and still can be somewhat improved with multi-classing in a fashion every character could. It seems logical that characters that dedicate their life to healing and protection would NEVER annihilate the soul of another living being an instant later like bloodmages, spiritists orreavers do. But currently almost ALL healers, clerics, paladins, druids, rangers and guardians use the powers of spirit/blight as well, which is ridiculous to say the least.

    It is urgent to think about the current development, because otherwise I fear that many players will stop playing Horizons all together due to that practice, their characters simply not making sense any longer. Currently even berserkers, knights of creation and other battle-oriented classes run about using healing spells and throwing spirit bolts.

    I would suggest a strict division of life/nature and sprit/blight magic like it already exists between these and the domains of flame/ice/energy/mind.Further healing spells and class-specific healing abilities should be restricted to healers,clerics and druids ONLY. To a lesser degree -as it currently is the case - paladins, rangers and guardiansshould have access to healing spells. Shamans as a cross-over-class should be limitedto the domains of nature and blight with no access to either true life and true spirit magic. All other classes should have no access to healing spells, to once again improve the role of a cleric or healer in a group.

    Since player numbers are at an all-time low this might bethe most opportune moment to make such changes without annoying too many players and create a solid game balance and basis for the future.

    The levels of multi-classing:

    - Some combination of classes add this or that ability or spell to the chosen base class, strengthening it. i.e. a warrior taking cleric for dispirit and the 2 healing spells or monk to 10th level for the foresight ability. A spellcaster adding mage to 36th level for gaining multicast. Nothing too powerful, but a nice boon indeed. The base class canonly benefit from very certain abilities and/or spells of the chosen multi-class however.

    - Some combinations complement each other most often having been the prerequisite.i.e. a ranger/gurardian who also raises druid. A paladin raising cleric/healer. A Reaver raising spiritist/bloodmage.A KnoC, BTLM, ChsW raising mage/sorcerer/conjurer. This complements the class allowing it full access to a field it is already proficient with. The same is true for a druid raising healer/cleric for example to strenghten his grip on augmentation and to access the missing 4 health spells. All this makes the character considerably stronger but also is quite in tune with the chosen base class.

    - The last possibility is what I consider a break in balance. Choosing a class and fully ADDING all of its powers to yours, giving you full benefitof a completely NEW classwith spells and abilities you did completely miss before. That is the case when you take a cleric/healer/paladin/druid/guardian/rangerand ADD spiritist/bloodmage/reaver to it and vice versa. This makes for a multi-class much more versatile and powerful than any other combination. To allow the mage- or fighter-classes full access to life/nature would have the same detrimental results on character balance.

    ...

    Narkano


    Please note: The discussion is meant about character balance - not ethics, not moralsand notfinding an individual explanation, why a charcater might still have developed such a combination of classes from the point of roleplaying.



  2. #2

    Default Re: Game balance and character-system

    All the healing spells are already pretty limited, the only 2 that most can use are Revitalize and Improved Revitalize. But hey 2 spells makes alot of different i cant argue with that, its also makes the game more fun when you see your charactair grow stronger, beeing able to take on more opponents etc.. and you dont take 5 lvl 100 overnight... maybe you can get from lvl 1-50 overnight if you have a group to powerlevl the ******** out of your little noob, but after 50 it slows down, so even if you get powerlevled like crazy it will probably take about a week to get to 100.And most people have works or other things to do andcan't/won't play 12 hours a day.
    100 Warrior |100 Guardian |100 Healer
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    wich one would you pick ?

  3. #3

    Default Re: Game balance and character-system

    Quote Originally Posted by Narkano

    Those characters are on one hand almost invulnerable to even vastnumbers of the most dangerous foes and on the other hand defy any common reason ofa fantasy game.
    I wanted to read the whole thing, I did. Maybe I'll come back to the rest later. I just couldn't get passed this horribly flawed premise. It can create characters almost invulnerable to vast numbers of the weakest foes, not the most dangerous.

    You don't see people on Elnath gathering up large quantities of WA mobs (Vexator, Abominations, Kwellen, Aergors, Class Mobs, Wraiths, Palsy/Discord/Inhibition/Famine) because these mobs are quite dangerous in large numbers. Some are extremely dangerous in numbers of more than one. Even for the uberest of individuals.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Game balance and character-system

    I didn't want to argue about wording. This was just a general statement, being true for most mobs running about the world of Istaria. The WA with their prestige class undead are one of the very few exceptions to it. The combination I mentioned still proves to be much stronger than every other class and it still makes absolutely no sense in any fantasy world.

    Narkano

  5. #5

    Default Re: Game balance and character-system

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    [img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Narkano wrote:

    Those characters are on one hand almost invulnerable to even vastnumbers of the most dangerous foes and on the other hand defy any common reason ofa fantasy game.



    I wanted to read the whole thing, I did. Maybe I'll come back to the rest later. I just couldn't get passed this horribly flawed premise. It can create characters almost invulnerable to vast numbers of the weakest foes, not the most dangerous.

    You don't see people on Elnath gathering up large quantities of WA mobs (Vexator, Abominations, Kwellen, Aergors, Class Mobs, Wraiths, Palsy/Discord/Inhibition/Famine) because these mobs are quite dangerous in large numbers. Some are extremely dangerous in numbers of more than one. Even for the uberest of individuals.

    Gotta agree PJ

    *looks at his 10 death points*
    Yep I sure feel invunerable.

    One on One perhaps I could possibly be considered invunerable but with a rating of 167 and a highest mob level of 120 I would hope I could take on anything one on one

    One on group I am still vunerable and thats how I gained most of those deathpoints. No amount of multiclassing will save you from a pack of tempest blights that sneak up and chain stun you.

    On to the magic side of things life and nature are the ying to spirit and blights yang. They are two sides of the same coind <insert more cliches> While ethically many people probably wouldn't dabble in both if you are already adept at one the other would not be much of a strech.

    It is kind of like the light side of the force vs the darkside
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Game balance and character-system

    Firstly Its a class combination....Its not 1 class. Multiclassing is suppossed to make you in general more powerful. A multiclassed character should be more powerful than any single classed character. And if you're seeing predominately heavily multiclassed clerics and druids its because those classes are easier to play....not more effective.

    As for "most" mobs that's quite the exaggeration.

    Types of mobs in tier V

    "Solo Farmable"

    Dire Wolves
    Icey Dire Wolves
    Fiery Dire Wolves
    Giant Ice Beetles
    Giant Flame Beetles
    Giant Fire Beetles
    Peridot Golems
    Fire Opal Golems
    Emerald Golems
    Marble Golems
    Mithril Golems
    Purple Spiders
    Purple Tarantulas
    Grey Necroflies
    Bloodsnout Gruoks

    Non "Solo Farmable"

    Storm Ogres
    Naghek Ogres
    Pygmies
    Wind Golems
    Forest Oastics
    Yew Treants (some might argue this one but their fairly well intertwined with Oastics)
    Blood Skulks
    Veteran Zombies
    Veteran Ghosts
    Veteran Skeletons
    Veteran Mummies
    Veteran Aergors
    Veteran Abominations
    Veteran Blights
    Energized Kwellen
    Vexator
    Wraiths
    Zombie Ogres
    Palsy/Inhibition/Discord/Famine

    And the jury is still out on Frost Hellhounds and Myloc Harridans

    Its hardly most of the mobs that these HL's are immune to.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Game balance and character-system

    Ah... we last had this discussion - or ones very similar to this - in mid-February I believe. [:)] The Dynamic Duo of PJ and 'Karl were fast on the defense of überpeds back then too. [:D]

    But really, we're just treading dead water here. It is still my position that multi-multi-multiclassed bipeds are overpowered, and certain people still staunchly oppose this view. We can argue about this until our faces turn blue, but I don't think on such a fundamental, core gameplay issue nothing we say will have any effect. It is up to the developers to decide if anything should be done, and if anything will be done.

    Oh yeah... are you a dragon Narkano? It is said that those who suggest the current unlimited multiclassing system is overpowered are all but jealous dragons - our year-old naka alts nonwithstanding. [*-)]

    Dragon adventurer 100 | Dragon crafter 100 | Dragon lairshaper 84

  8. #8

    Default Re: Game balance and character-system

    Search is your friend.

    :: yawns ::

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  9. #9

    Default Re: Game balance and character-system

    Quote Originally Posted by Narkano
    The other reason being, that it is possible to combine the powers of life/nature with spirit/blight. The result being a cleric, with full-plate armor, all healing spells and abilities, allnature spells and allspirit and blight spellsat their disposal.
    Almost completely accurate, there are two spells in the spirit line that Clerics can't cast. Self Sacrificium, and Blood Bolt. Admittedly, this still leaves a lot of power in the hands of one multiclassed person.

    Personally, I don't think the problem is with the multiclassing, it's with the ease of powerleveling. My Paladin/Druid/Spiritist/Healer has really slowed down on the leveling now that his rating is higher than any of his levels even in his lower classes, but that's because I level him solo for the most part. I'd still be leveling reasonably if I wanted to group at one of the powerleveling spots.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Game balance and character-system

    I say it once again, even if I feel it to be of no avail:

    I do not want to argue about wording. No one is absolutely invulnerable and there are foes even such a super-powerful character cannot stand in numbers. I never claimed that. The basic statement still proves true, though.

    I am no dragon,I am simply a multi-classed Cleric/Druid/Warrior still to withstand the lure of evil and not tainted by the touch of blight despite all the benefits and power it would bring me.One reason might be that I am GM to quite a lot of roleplayinggames for more than 20 yearsto know the importance of character-balance. From my many discussions with other players I know that quite alot share this point of view. (They are no dragons either :) )Many of them gave in to the temptation of adding spirit/blight to their characters for they watched what such a character is able to do. While multi-classing is a thing most interesting and much appreciated by the players it changed from boon to banesince not handled and restictedproperly.

    The base classes are well-thought and well-balanced. They even saw minor changes to adress some issues with balancing as with the case of guardian. If the current system is allowed to go awry such thoughts will be of no use at all. The character classes would not evenneeda name any longer. A number and a description of the skills and pointsgained would be sufficient. A development which I would much regret.

    Narkano


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Game balance and character-system

    I am simply a multi-classed Cleric/Druid/Warrior still to withstand the lure of evil..... by your own insinuation that multiclassing is evil you've already succumbed... :)

    I take great pride in my classes and I'm most certain that there is none that have chosen the exact path that PJ has... most like yourself chose the most travelled and easiest path to alleged uberness..... and before you accuse me of what you are calling evil I'll let you know the highest class I have that can wear plate is 21... and I'm comfortable with my ring/chain class ranger with multi support.
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Game balance and character-system

    On the subject of spirit/blight skills in the hands of a healer:

    'Know thy enemy.'

    In other words saying that there is no justification is, as I see things, incorrect.

    Just my 3c.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Game balance and character-system

    The thread wasn'tan accusation and read carefully couldn't be taken as one. The phrase was only meant as a colorful description especially from the point of roleplaying.

    Please don't try to interpret individual words or sentences I used as good or bad to loose the point by arguing aboutsuch topics. Better try to reasonabout the problem at hand. The discussion will get out of hand, when everyone having a spiritist-related class now starts an argument. The discussion was meant about character balance - not ethics, not moralsand notfinding an individual explanation, why a charcater might have developed such a combination of classes from the point of roleplaying.

    I have characters with spiritist classes, too, so I a change would befall some of my characters as well. On the other hand I can experience the superiority to my other characters first hand.

    You may take pride in your class since you perhaps did not have exploitedthe full potential that is possible by the allowed combinations.You cannot deny the possibility, though. You also cannot deny, that the combination of those classes makes for a vastly superior character at which other classes can only look in awe.

    Narkano

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Game balance and character-system

    Alwaysfun to see Bipeds take a defensive stance the moment the overpowered multiclass system is mentioned... [:P]

    I stay with what I said in different threads...
    A warrior that lvls faster with flame bolts then with his trusted hand weapon is no real warrior...

    Same goes for a Cleric using anything else then its own magic or abilities...

    Restriction on abilities and spells will make the game more challenging, effectively makes it more difficult for large farming expeditions...

    And even better...
    It would remove the need for tier 7+ for the uberpeds...
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Game balance and character-system

    Nobody's disputing that this multiclass is better than any single class in the game. Because that's the point of multiclassing. Now if you're trying to say that those two multiclasses are vastly superior, or hell even slightly superior to other multiclasses, then you'd get some disagreement.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Game balance and character-system

    I'm unsure where the view that spirit and blight are evil came from. It has been used as an argument by people before that no healer/cleric/paladin etc should use evil spirit magic.

    The magic itself is not inheritly evil it is neutral the weilder is the one who is evil. Spirit is just the opposite side of life. Blight is the opposite side to augmentation.

    Cleric/Druid/Spiritist Does make for a strong character however they are by no means invincible nor the most powerful combo you can get. You can not justify saying multiclassing is over powered based soley on one template. There are many combinations that have very little power.

    If you were posting saying powerleveling makes multiclassing too easy I would say yes it can but not everyone chooses to powerlevel.

    Had you said some masterable abilities should not be I would agree with that as well


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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Game balance and character-system

    Only even you must agree with me that it is strange for a melee fighter to use offensive magic against mobs, while it is supposed to go through life with his melee weapon.

    As far as I can see it multiclassing is just an easy way to keep the hardcore gamers for a long time, only some combinations of schools with the spells they use are a little to strong...

    Personally I prefere other types of leveling systems, but it appears we are stuck with this...

    Rvlion- LvL 100:100:100 - 59.3M - Lunus Ancient
    Gallinthus- LvL 100:42:41 - 6.9M - Hatchling
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Game balance and character-system



    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonboy
    Only even you must agree with me that it is strange for a melee fighter to use offensive magic against mobs, while it is supposed to go through life with his melee weapon.
    a priori notions have norelevance here. They can influence your opinion on things. But have no bearing on what makes sense, or how thingsshould be.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Game balance and character-system

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonboy
    Only even you must agree with me that it is strange for a melee fighter to use offensive magic against mobs, while it is supposed to go through life with his melee weapon.
    Your opinion seems to be based on either other games or books or something else.

    I am of the opinion every warrior should use their tools he,she or it has available. If the warrior is capable of learning magic then they should take advantage of it. Why not use a spell to attract a mobs attention and if your magic will cause more harm to your foe why not use it. If you cause more damage the foe is dead faster and there is less risk to yourself.

    However at the same time I would also prefer to see a skill based advancement system where you only gained skills by using them
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Game balance and character-system

    While you can have different opinions about multi-classing I believe that it is much appreciated by most players. The advantage of a system like that being that even players with precious little time to play (like myself) can develop a capable character that makes fun playing. On the other hand hardore-players also have their share of fun, since they do not reach 100th level andbe done with it. They can invest their time in their beloved character and start multi-classing being able to further enhance it without becoming overpowering, though.

    That was true as long as rating was a bane to reckless multi-classing. With the share of experience in a group being calculated by rating and the possibilty of vastexperience-gain through multiple-enemy-bonus that bane turned into a boon.

    One Cleric/Spiritist/X/X might not have been a problem at all. From the beginning of Horizons most characters already had healer/clericamong their classesfor getting some healing powers. Not too nice for true healers/clerics but still tolerable.Since everyone got the opportunity to additionally raise spiritist/bloodmage for spirit/blight and druid/shaman for nature and especiallydark cyclone it has become a problem.

    Why won't you allow healers, clerics, druids, shamans, spiritists and bloodmages to cast all mage spells? Because of character balance and because they would become much too powerful. Exactly the sameis true now for life/nature-classes using spirit/blight and vice versa.

    I am well aware, that no-one wants to loose a such a major benefitwho already tasted its power. On the other hand a long-term viewon character balance dictates otherwise.

    Narkano

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