Game balance and character-system

[evilkarl]

I assure you rating is still a bane and slows down the process of leveling significantly.

Why won't you allow healers, clerics, druids, shamans, spiritists and bloodmages to cast all mage spells? Because of character balance and because they would become much too powerful. Exactly the sameis true now for life/nature-classes using spirit/blight and vice versa.

Umm nature/life/spirit/augmentation/blight all deal with life forces, priesty stuff

flame/mind/energy/ice/summoning all relate to the arcane and none of them have anything to do with priesty stuff or life forces.

To me the distinction is pretty clear and pretty simple

[PJ]

That was true as long as rating was a bane to reckless multi-classing. With the share of experience in a group being calculated by rating and the possibilty of vastexperience-gain through multiple-enemy-bonus that bane turned into a boon.

Rating is a penaly. Yes it lost some of its teeth with the introduction of mobs over level 80. The rating penalty isn't as much of a penalty now with the heavy multi mob bonus, group bonus, and existence of mobs over level 100. But that'd bea problem with the experience system, not with the multiclass system.

One Cleric/Spiritist/X/X might not have been a problem at all. From the beginning of Horizons most characters already had healer/clericamong their classesfor getting some healing powers. Not too nice for true healers/clerics but still tolerable.Since everyone got the opportunity to additionally raise spiritist/bloodmage for spirit/blight and druid/shaman for nature and especiallydark cyclone it has become a problem.

Lets be consistent. If its not a problem for one person to do it, its not a problem for everybody to do it. Can't give one person special privileges. Although what's a problem for you isnt' a problem for everybody.

[Narkano]

... rating was meant as a penalty, yes. Now it not only lost its teeth, it became the opposite. Calculate the share of group member's experience bycurrent level and it might become a penealty again as well as you'll be able to feel the loss. Remember that absolutely no onebeing 20th levelwith rating 100 would be ableto do another class alone ... or it would take him a life-time. So the new experience systemautomatically lead to a multi-classing problem.

... again the discussions of ethics,moral and roleplaying. The reasoning of "it's all life stuff" isn't consistent with any common view of magic. You might as well say "it's all the stuff of the force" or "the stuff of the universal magic" to find a reason why spellcasters ultimately all use the same powers and should be able to use ALL spells ... or to find an explanation if this would already been the case, as it is here with life/nature and spirit/blight. Matter of factly this isn't the case with any fantasy game and with good reason. But again, the discussion is about character-balance.

... that it is possible for every player to exploit the given possibilities and become as powerful doesn't make it any better and doesn't help withgame balance. Just imagine for a moment that with Horizons spellcasters would be all powerful and fighters wouldn't. Of course you can reason that this must be the case, that it sounds logical to you and that everyone can play a spellcaster ... but to what end? A broken game balance where characters who won't take a special class will be much weaker ...

Narkano

[evilkarl]

I've started classes at level 1 with a rating of 128 and was able to solo t5 and t6 mobs fine I've spent large amounts of time with low level soloing when rated well above 100 so you are talking more crap.

Just because other fantasy games or worlds do not have a division in magic according to you does not mean they do not exist. Its a perfectly reasonable for those studying to focus on life manipulation vs elemental or arcane magics.

[imported_tjl]

While I am going to disagree with most of your points Narkano, I will say there is one spot I think you have some merit.

Ever since day one, I noticed how haphazardly each spell line was strewn about the various classes. A quick semi-example:

I, as a single classed mage can take cleric for almost no spell gains. Only limited augmentation, and revitalize. And that seems correct. Mage is a master of the elementals, not life. But compare that to other classes such as spirtist and you start to see a difference. They get access to rez, group heals, etc.

It is almost like life, spirit, and nature are one big spell class, similar to the elemental classes. Except where the elemental classes focus on damage and only damage, spirt/nature/life do all sorts of things... healing, damaging, buffing, regens, lifetaps, syphons, and so forth. I admit, I am no expert in the nature/life catergories, but I do think that those three classes are a bit too muddled together.

I would like to see multiclassing as a way to get more abilities from other classes, while for the most part retaining to the classes respective spell line, with fairly limited spell crossover.

Personally I think its done pretty well with elmental magic, as sorcs/wiz/conj are defined by thier abilities, and a limited spell line. (at least thats how it should be... another topic entirely though)

I will aplogize, it's late, and this reply was kind of all over the place. But I think the key to fine tuning the balacing multiclassing is in the way the spells interact, or don't interact. I think that across the board, characters should stay a little more "closer to home" in regards to the spells they cast.

[PJ]

... rating was meant as a penalty, yes. Now it not only lost its teeth, it became the opposite. Calculate the share of group member's experience bycurrent level and it might become a penealty again as well as you'll be able to feel the loss. Remember that absolutely no onebeing 20th levelwith rating 100 would be ableto do another class alone ... or it would take him a life-time. So the new experience systemautomatically lead to a multi-classing problem.

If the problems with the rating penalty, group experience, multimob experience, experience in general is a problem, lets call it "Problem A". And you're hypothetical "multi-classing" problem, "Problem B" is being caused by "Problem A" Maybe if you fix "Problem A", "Problem B" wouldn't be a problem anymore. By focusing on limiting multiclassing you're trying to treat a symptom, not cure the illness.

You might as well say "it's all the stuff of the force" or "the stuff of the universal magic" to find a reason why spellcasters ultimately all use the same powers and should be able to use ALL spells ... or to find an explanation if this would already been the case, as it is here with life/nature and spirit/blight. Matter of factly this isn't the case with any fantasy game and with good reason. But again, the discussion is about character-balance.

Other fantasy games have no bearing on how Horizons should function. What? its about character balance? Define character balance, its a complicated issue with multiple interepretations of what you could mean when you use the phrase.

... that it is possible for every player to exploit the given possibilities and become as powerful doesn't make it any better and doesn't help withgame balance. Just imagine for a moment that with Horizons spellcasters would be all powerful and fighters wouldn't. Of course you can reason that this must be the case, that it sounds logical to you and that everyone can play a spellcaster ... but to what end? A broken game balance where characters who won't take a special class will be much weaker ...

I'm sorry if you're experience has been colored by the Elnath farming, but clerics and druids aren't all their made out to be. Neither are the Nature/Spirit/Blight schools. Its an extreme disservice to the Flame/Ice/Energy/Mind/Summoning Schools. They aren't better or worse, they're just different. They do different things better than clerics, druids and their ilk. Why do you see so many of them? Its not cause their better, its because they're more geared towards mob farming, and their easier to play in general. Its easy to sit back with Cloak of Thorns on and cast heals on yourself. Its alot harder to kite a pack of mobs with Daunting Mist, Area Spellbind, and nuke the bejeezus out of them with your 2200+ power.

[PJ]

I, as a single classed mage can take cleric for almost no spell gains. Only limited augmentation, and revitalize. And that seems correct. Mage is a master of the elementals, not life. But compare that to other classes such as spirtist and you start to see a difference. They get access to rez, group heals, etc.

You get almost no spell gains as mage already gets gains in all 5 different arcane magic schools natively while the more priestly side gets 2 or 3 different schools of the 5 mystic schools.

Personally I think its done pretty well with elmental magic, as sorcs/wiz/conj are defined by thier abilities, and a limited spell line. (at least thats how it should be... another topic entirely though)

Actually sorcs/wizards/conjurers make a great example, although not how you meant it. Unlike Mage, sorcs/wizards/conjurers get only a subset of the arcane magic schools 2 in the case of wizard and 3in the case of sorc/conj. This is similar to how spiritist and druid work, getting a subset of the general category. However with multiclassing Sorcs/Wizards/Conjurers can access the entire Arcane line. The same holds for all of the Arcane/melee prestiges (CHSW, KNOC, BTLM, FLMD, ICED), each can use all of the Arcane spells if they multiclass the appropriate schools. The same cannot be said for the Mystic/melee prestiges as they aren't allowed access to the health line.

It is almost like life, spirit, and nature are one big spell class, similar to the elemental classes. Except where the elemental classes focus on damage and only damage, spirt/nature/life do all sorts of things... healing, damaging, buffing, regens, lifetaps, syphons, and so forth. I admit, I am no expert in the nature/life catergories, but I do think that those three classes are a bit too muddled together.

While their effects aren't quite as varied, the arcanes schools arent' strictly limited to damage. They have debuffs [Lessen Power, Lessen Focus, Stupidity, Scatterbrain, Stinging Cold, Sear, Freeze, Warped Perception], Roots [Ice Shackles], Super Unbreakable Root [Binding Crystals], Mezzes [Numbing Haze], Snares [Daunting Mist, Debase], Dots [Immolate], and the generic buffs [Ward/Resists]. Additionally some arcane spells can be teched with interesting effects [Stun, Burning Damage, Ice Snare], unlike the mystic line which just gets more generic versions of damage and range and minus % resistance. Basically...Arcane spells do all sorts of neat stuff too.

[refuse]

Why not add to the game instead of remove from the game.

In the library thread, I suggested "improved" or better forms of items.
Why not use this chance to imply some "history" and game mechanics (i.e. add to the game).

Suggestions would be these new forms would imply a speration of class.
You could have Blood Mage only armor/weapons that have a bonus to spirit/blight but a corresponding negative to life/nature. They could add to spirit damage, and reduce heals.

Healer/Cleric armor that adds to life/augmenation but reduces spirit/blight. They add to the heals (I think there is a club that adds to heals over time too), but reduces spirit damage.

For mages have fire/ice/mind/energy armor, that adds to power and one class.

THis library
http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=51925
Would be the sole source of these forms. They would be good but not overly supper, basically a built in tech. Make adventurer boons/bounties with a built in bane. So

Adventurer:Blood Mage (boon/bounty of a level)
+X Spirit
+y Spirit damage
+z Boil Blood
-A Life
-A to all heals

Adventurer: Sorcerer (boon/bounty of a level)
+x Mind
+y cold
+z stun time to all mez
-a fire
-b energy

Adventurer: Warrior (boon/Bounty of a level)
+x str
+y dex
+z health
-a to all spells
-when activated power -x, focus -y but all hth damage is doubled +100 armor for c seconds.

This way the "old" records are recovered, the ones showing, if it is true, mulitclassing is bad. Let the players keep their multiclassed characters, but give single class characters something to work with, and imply a desire for single class.

The ability to multiclass/not specialize is there.
There is now a reward for single classing, or playing within these new abilities to gain the "bonus" abilities of this armor.

Could even do this kind of thing for dragons.

Dragon: Blessing of the Lunus
+x primal
+y focus
+z power
-x T&C

Imply through itmes a specialization (might have lunus and hellian backwards), but don't remove what people have to day, add to the game something that will help add seperation.

Just because you don't see fighters casting spells (battlemage?) doesn't mean other's don't. Just because you don't see life and spirit/blight working together doesn't mean others don't.

Add to the game, these above items could be class specific (more forms, more economy), items could be quest items from trainers (Yeah blood mages would have 1 quests). These items/forms could be drops from WA. But alot of people's requests could be solved by something like this.


(ideas based on some of the complaints/requests going around the boards)
Request - better loot.
-- Have mobs (WA) drop equipment that is class specific! Match the class the WA is.
-- This equipment is now worth something in the economy as fighters now have something good to sell.
-- Hunters now can get good item from Mobs instead of relying on crafters.

Request - Some more lore
-- Explain how classes use to be seperate and the gifted worked together.
-- Add Library with information and a source of forms (like blighted forms).
-- Use soul frags to make these items, the power of a "blood mage" imbunes the armor making it better for blood mages, but weakens other abilities.

Request - More economy
-- Adding/improving armor means more jobs for crafters, more jobs for hunters. The new forms need new components (another complaint) and this can all tie in.
-- The new items are sellable/hordeable and useable by limited classes, so more items are needed.
-- The new forms (Library tokens) are needed to purchase these new forms. More adventuring is needed to get these tokens.

Request - More content
-- The rebuilding of the Library could be a world event
-- Questing trainers for forms (blood mage forms from a blood mage trainer) will add quests to classes.
-- Questing library quests for tokens and components adds generic content.
-- Finding these shards and bits to combine, perhaps there are bits dropped that can be combined in different ways to make other items. Some warrior bits and mage bits to make battle mage?

Request - Less multi-classing
-- while this won't solve it, it penalizes multiclassing while rewarding single class characters. This isn't forcing people to use this armor, but does reward them enough they would want this armor.
-- The ability drops can be overcome with training points, as it should be, if you want to be what you want to be all is good.

Request - Dragon content
-- Adding Back Power scales of the Lunus, or Hellian Strength leg scales can help specialize the dragons, add some power to them.
-- Scales could add to dragon's breath weapons, or t&C attacks.
-- Dragon Claw slots could be modified by class to accept the missing techs this way. Dragon Crafting claw forms, Dragon fighting claw forms, dragon casting claw forms. Again, more forms, more choices, more individuality.

Request - More endgame contnet.
-- Put this on the mobs people don't farm. Kwellans, Avatars, and other tougher characters to farm. Yes this means it is harder to get the "big" drops. But that is the intent. Put class specific items on WA of the same class (so go looking for bloodmage WA for bloodmage items).
-- Add in WA dragons for dragon items.
-- Add in dragon anchors (WA dragons) for dragon hunting.

Request - more beginner content
-- This would add choices for beginners, these beginner items would nudge beginners/new alts into a class, as well as help them get started.


I think if you look at the problems on the board you can probably find one solution, while not perfect, that could solve alot of people's complaints all by using the same solution. It isn't perfect, but would accomplish alot in the directions requested, while allowing the variablity and game play people have now. It would just add new content, new ideas, and new challenges to the game.

[refuse]

While thinking about this some more I thought there might be some other things that could be address.


Request - Single use items.
Add to confection, alchemy single use items that add a bonus by class. Perhaps some how mix in a bit of adv to crafting (or not).

Item - Blood Pudding (confection) only useable by Bloodmage
- As blood doll
- Would be neat if you needed to be a blood mage to make

Item - Lightning in a bottle (Alchemy, maybe tink) only useable by druid
- Lighting storm but pretty powerful

Item - Essence of Life (alchemy) only useable by cleric/healer
- Group instant heal

Item - Chained Fire (Alchemy) only useable by mage/wizard
- AoE Immolate

Item - Istarian Blessing (Confection) only useable by warriors (reavers, knoc. . )
- Acts as a +1000 armor, gone after first hit.

Item - Spirit of the Tao (confection) only useable by monks
- +500 evasion for 1 minute.



Request - Better items
Make class specific spells like Blood Bolt. These would be better then the average (i.e. same level) spells but only usable by the appropriate class. These may have a little disadvantage for a good advantage.

Say
Blood Storm - As Blood Bolt of same level, AoE 5. Only useable by Blood Mage
Master Healing - As improved healing, but adds some bonus to heals and 1% chance to cleanse (added to cleanse if cleanse is teched on the spell). Healer only.
Fire Storm - As Immolate but over area, 1% chance to lower flame resistance, adds to the flame resistance lowering tech if it is added. Mage only.
Corruption of Blight - A withered state/root type spell. For Shamans only.
Revaltion of Istaria - A Life bolt/stun combonation. For Clerics only.
Tripping the mind - A mind spell that adds DoT and negative Alclarity. Sorcerers only.

For dragons, we assume TPs spent in T&C means Hellian, TP spent in primal means Lunus (or HTH and mage if we don't like those names).

So to identify spell casting dragons, we assume the dragons spend TP in primal. So if Dragons get 9pts of primal (guessing) per level, and the spell was a 10th level spell (dragon would have 90 pts of primal) and the dragon gets 9 pts of primal per level by spending TP, then the spell would require 135 primal and a level of 10.

Power of the Lunus - A Primal Spell that adds stun. The requirements for primal would assume 50% TP in primal for the spells level.
Winds of primal force - A primal spell that adds AoE. The requirements for primal would assume 50% Tp in primal for the spell's level.
Primal Healing - A primal heal with cleanse. The requirements for primal would assume 50% Tp in primal for the spell's level.
Primal Speed - A primal augmentation that adds to velocity. The requirements for primal would assume 50% Tp in primal for the spell's level.
Primal Armor - A primal augmentation that add to armor. The requirements for primal would assume 50% Tp in primal for the spell's level.

Other ideas for Dragons:
Head Scale of Flame:
Adds to the Dragon breath

Tail Scale of striking:
Adds time to the dragon stun attack.

Forarm scale of Slashing:
Adds to the Dragon's T&C and Slash attacks.

These scales would be the "default" values for these new scales, and can be teched as per those scales now. So add T&C to the Slashing scale.



These lower level spells added to the Epic spells would make classes different, or at least being in a class different.

Added to the limited spell book, a person could have generic spells and switch classes as needed. Or specialize with one class and be more powerful in their one class, while sacrficing the generic abilities of the multi-class.

So summary

Class specific items would be added to drops, these would be good.
Class specific forms would be added to the library, these would be good, but can be teched from their base.
Class specific single use items could be made by Alchemy, tinkers and confection.
Class specific spells would be made by Spell Maker/scholars/dragons.


Add to the world events such as building the library (could have it heavily defended by WA). And then obtaining new books, or new repositories as time goes along.


We would ahve lots of class specific items, and this means more items needed, and more people focusing on single classes, as changing classes requires different equipment, different spells, different items. Or they play the generic more versatile character.

[KalidoR]

I'm no expert here, but I think the real problem is not the multi-class system, but more the class a race is allowed to play. If in a logic fantasy world we can see a dwarf using magic, or be a druid, it would not stand our general thinking of what a dwarf is. So if we limit all race to specific class, this will allow to use multi-class, but limited in a way that not all classes are accessible.A dwarf mage/druid/spiritist is illogic to me! just my 2 copper out of this discussion.

[imported_tjl]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]tjl wrote:
I, as a single classed mage can take cleric for almost no spell gains. Only limited augmentation, and revitalize. And that seems correct. Mage is a master of the elementals, not life. But compare that to other classes such as spirtist and you start to see a difference. They get access to rez, group heals, etc.


You get almost no spell gains as mage already gets gains in all 5 different arcane magic schools natively while the more priestly side gets 2 or 3 different schools of the 5 mystic schools.



Personally I think its done pretty well with elmental magic, as sorcs/wiz/conj are defined by thier abilities, and a limited spell line. (at least thats how it should be... another topic entirely though)

Actually sorcs/wizards/conjurers make a great example, although not how you meant it. Unlike Mage, sorcs/wizards/conjurers get only a subset of the arcane magic schools 2 in the case of wizard and 3in the case of sorc/conj. This is similar to how spiritist and druid work, getting a subset of the general category. However with multiclassing Sorcs/Wizards/Conjurers can access the entire Arcane line. The same holds for all of the Arcane/melee prestiges (CHSW, KNOC, BTLM, FLMD, ICED), each can use all of the Arcane spells if they multiclass the appropriate schools. The same cannot be said for the Mystic/melee prestiges as they aren't allowed access to the health line.

I think bloodmage may be the execption, they get revits, heath, group health and rez. But i see what you mean there. I also think that the melee prestiges get way too many arcane spells, forgot to mention that in my previous post.

It is almost like life, spirit, and nature are one big spell class, similar to the elemental classes. Except where the elemental classes focus on damage and only damage, spirt/nature/life do all sorts of things... healing, damaging, buffing, regens, lifetaps, syphons, and so forth. I admit, I am no expert in the nature/life catergories, but I do think that those three classes are a bit too muddled together.

While their effects aren't quite as varied, the arcanes schools arent' strictly limited to damage. They have debuffs [Lessen Power, Lessen Focus, Stupidity, Scatterbrain, Stinging Cold, Sear, Freeze, Warped Perception], Roots [Ice Shackles], Super Unbreakable Root [Binding Crystals], Mezzes [Numbing Haze], Snares [Daunting Mist, Debase], Dots [Immolate], and the generic buffs [Ward/Resists]. Additionally some arcane spells can be teched with interesting effects [Stun, Burning Damage, Ice Snare], unlike the mystic line which just gets more generic versions of damage and range and minus % resistance. Basically...Arcane spells do all sorts of neat stuff too.

Yes arcane does neat and unique things... but when compared to mobs out there, very few can be called useful. You made a great list of mobs, and I am going to use it for a sec, and elaborate on it: (bolded my words)

"Solo Farmable"

Dire Wolves melee
Icey Dire Wolves melee
Fiery Dire Wolves melee
Giant Ice Beetles melee-ish
Giant Flame Beetles melee-ish
Giant Fire Beetles melee-ish
Peridot Golems melee
Fire Opal Golems melee
Emerald Golems melee
Marble Golems melee
Mithril Golems melee
Purple Spiders melee-ish
Purple Tarantulas melee-ish
Grey Necroflies
Bloodsnout Gruoks melee

Non "Solo Farmable"

Storm Ogres melee
Naghek Ogres melee
Pygmies melee
Wind Golems not sure but they hit very hard
Forest Oastics melee
Yew Treants (some might argue this one but their fairly well intertwined with Oastics) melee
Blood Skulks casters mainly
Veteran Zombies mixed
Veteran Ghosts mixed
Veteran Skeletons mixed
Veteran Mummies mixed
Veteran Aergors
Veteran Abominations melee
Veteran Blights melee-ish
Energized Kwellen melee
Vexator melee
Wraiths melee
Zombie Ogres melee
Palsy/Inhibition/Discord/Famine melee

I think now you can see how useful having acess to more spells that heal, damage, or both at the same time, absolutley trump arcane magic in terms of multiclassing. You listed some debuffs we get above, however only the ones that do any damage are useful outside of group settings. Aside from the melees in plate who get too many spells, the most supermulticlassed arcane will still be in cloth, and cannot afford to cast stupidity/lesson focus on a mob since it does no damage, takes time, and in most cases wont effect a thing. And the woefully imcomplete mind/ice lines just buy time for the most part. Except for binding crystals, which is the arcane's bread and butter as the world of istartia is now.

The above is the only reason I think the spirt/life lines should be a little bit more restricting, or more accessable to all. Preferably the former.

[Seranthor]

IF folks had more to do in game they wouldn't be working on their quilts... but there isn't anything else.. so they knit..

[evilkarl]

Blights can be farmed if you have mind skill and are in a school to cast daunting mist. and possibly with nature skill and patch although its no where near as good effective

Without those spells/debuffs they can easily cause much pane

[PJ]

The list was a tier 5 list so i meant veteran blights, just to clarify.

Veteran Blights can be mass hunted solo, but not to the degree that I'd call it farming. Farming to me involves complete disdain for the mob. Blights are dangerous enough to be respected, get enough and you're chain stunned, slowed, dotted to death. Now if you've got a healer bot/partner you can get closer to farming them, but then that's not solo farming is it.

[evilkarl]

Vendilin uses mage bombs and plate armour as far as I know Being a CHSW with 100 mage and 100 cleric makes for a strong farming char. With daunting mist IV blights wouldn't be difficult to farm.

However PJ is right Blights are mobs that you have to be more careful of and its not as easy to pull 20 of them at once as some other crap supposed WA mobs are

[kengar]

I think bloodmage may be the execption, they get revits, heath, group health and rez.

Actually, the division isn't base class/prestige as much as primary caster/primary melee. Druids, Clerics, Healers, Spiritists, Shaman, and Blood Mages get access to the health heals, Paladins, Reavers, Guardians, Rangers, Spirit Disciples, and Storm Disciple don't. While it's true that all of the classes that don't get access to the health heals are prestige, that's because there aren't any base classes that are primarily melee in the life/aug/spirit/blight classes.

[Dragonboy]

However at the same time I would also prefer to see a skill based advancement system where you only gained skills by using them

I remember a game called Stonekeep (or something like this)...

It had an advancement system very distantly simular to Hz...

For every mob you killed in that "dungeon" you got something like xp...

Only instead of increasing the skill on a broad range of weapons or skills (like leveling a school in Hz) you only leveled on the type of weapon you used...

Each weapon type (5 or 6 types including Magic) had its own xp bar and leveling caused an increased damage/chance to hit...

I always liked that kind of leveling or increasing your skill, but it did restrict a player to that type of weapon since for example Sword and Magic (for healing) was many times higher then the other types...

Only if some sort of system like this was to be made for Hz (what is not possible anyways) it would almost eliminate the use of seperate schools to level... and would eliminate the need to devide training points...

The only thing the schools would be there for is opening a new type of skill or magic to use, which from that point on would be usable by the player at all times...

For example when using a spell from the Augmentation line it would increase the (Augmentation line) xp bar and when leveling the skill becomes higher and with higher skill a new spell may be scribed...

The same would be so for Life... Casting more healing spells would result in getting more experience in using Life magic and thus increase skill over time...

Simular xp-bars could be used for 1-handed weapons / 2-handed weapons / (cross)bows / ... ect

Or in case of dragons... Tooth&Claws / Breath of Fire / Tail whip / ... ect

Make any multi-attack dependened on which type of weapon or magic is used...

For example a Dragon attack like Ravage, Gold Rage, Silverstrike uses the claws so experience is gained in using that particular area...

This would be a good idea for a new game since it would take longer to change the whole game then to create a new one, but I doubt in a type of game like this many powerlevelers or leechers would be existing, since only damage done increases skill...

[imported_tjl]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]tjl wrote:I think bloodmage may be the execption, they get revits, heath, group health and rez.

Actually, the division isn't base class/prestige as much as primary caster/primary melee. Druids, Clerics, Healers, Spiritists, Shaman, and Blood Mages get access to the health heals, Paladins, Reavers, Guardians, Rangers, Spirit Disciples, and Storm Disciple don't. While it's true that all of the classes that don't get access to the health heals are prestige, that's because there aren't any base classes that are primarily melee in the life/aug/spirit/blight classes.

thank you for clarifying that for me.

[Kulamata]

These discussions always use immediate and past experience, usually with carefully selected examples to buttress sweeping statements.

I'm 132 rating, spiritist, Ranger, shaman and some healer and the near-obligatory 36 mage. Ranger is the "core" class. Mhedon two-hits me. A purple (?) Vexator 108met me, and limped off with only 4,000 hp remaining.(I could have done better on that one though.) Even the spiral is dangerous now, because of the high spawn rates, with mezzers/stunners aplenty. We expect WA up to level 140 in the future.

Someday, we will have to storm the Wedge. I'm perfectly happy to have players who are very capable against the current mobs. We'll need them. Badly.

[Narkano]

To make it short before being off to work ...

As it happens I also have a mage/sorcerer/conjurer/cleric/knoc available. Really nice chararacter especially when within a group. The class can be devastating to mobs, that go right into melee combat no matter if currently being knoc or a mage-class. But the class still has its disadvantages and must be rather careful.Accurate timing and knowlegde ofones abilities and spells are required to survive and "farm" such mobs. Nonetheless debuffs are your bane, as are mobs, that do not gather in groups and those that deal out ethereal damage. You may have 2 healing spells from the cleric teched with cleanse, but they can only detoxify single debuffs with luck and do not help you, if you take massive damage.

Classes like cleric/druid/warrior/x/x have great armor and healing abilities as well as being able to detoxify a large number of debuffs with 6 teched healing spells, purify and the detoxify abilities from their druid class. But they have only 2 area spellsfrom the druid dealingmedium damage and only thelesser combat abilities from the warrior. Their weakness is dealing out massive damage to finally gethis foes killed. He need time. While they must heal, they again loose valuable time, especially if the mobs heal themselves. Againsta greater number of enemies the often can do nothing else, but heal. But nonetheless a powerful combination and great to have along in a group.

The same is true for ranger/druid/cleric/x/x and so on.

Butthen comes the cleric/healer / druid/shaman / spiritist/bloodmage / x/x ... having all advantages, making up for ALLdisadvantagespreviously mentioned, being most versatile of them all, having all augmentations, being almost invulnerable for the time when ethereal paroxysm works, healing himself while dealing out considerable damage at the same time. If that isn't enough healing himself with his life spells he has full access to. Of course he can also stun androot with nature spells and weaken his enemies with blight spellsbut rarely has to use either one or the other since he simply gets through rather well without them.

Really nice lists up there ... of course the other classes have some abilities and spells, too. Of course other combinations can become quite powerful. Never claimed otherwise. But compared to that killing machine they can only pale. NONE can compare to that!

And DO NOT say this isn't true, since I have one such character and know all too well, what I am speaking about! Even when stunned - most deadly for any other class - they may still live and see another day and even kill their foes while beinghelpless ... their paroxysm still working and perhapscloak of thorns and regrowth as well. Being able to heal, debuff and cast the next draining spell the instant they can act again.

Narkano