Is your role playing you? ( David Responds page 4 )

[Vahrokh]

Like I go saying since several months giving some "boosters" to who stays single or little classed is viable.

And to make you earn it is easy: you'll get a window like the training points one but with "prestige skills" (those that empower you till you are like a multiclasser even if you are not). When you reach say 10M unspent exp over level 100 the first row of skills "lights up" and you can press one of them (they are like buttons) and pronto you are now with 0 exp over level 100 but got your shiny "extrabash of uberdom" skill.

Next time you get again 10M exp over 100 the remaining button in that first row will light up again. If you don't use them, after i.e. more 20M exp only the second row button corresponding to the skill you chose earlier will light up (the others won't since you did not advance in the first row of them) and you'll be able to press it and gain the enhanced extrabash of uberdom. And again, 20M exp are subtracted, "eaten" by the act of getting the skill. And so on.

Doesn't this feel right? Maybe after5 months I repeat myself someone could implement it...

[Goriax]

That could work. Here's a slight variant. Not saying one's better or worse, just exploring the possibilities.

When you first join the "uber-prestige" school you have no more skills or abilities then you did just before joining. Furthermore, level gain in the uber-prestige school is somewhat slower (comparable to what it would take to level multiple classes -- again, TG can calibrate the rate of leveling just by observing how fast multiclassed players level). However, every time you gain a level in the "uber-prestige" school you get a LOT more power then if you had gained a regular level.

Of course, each uber-prestige school requires you be in exactly one class and once you join an uber-prestige school you can't join another class. I suppose they could have alternatives where you can keep your other classes, but if you're in your uber-prestige class you get abosolutely NOTHING from other classes (not even hit points)and if you're in any of the other classes you get absolutely NOTHING from your uber-prestige class. I'm not sure if even that would be too much. Might be better to simply say that once you join the uber-prestige school that's the only class you can be, so choose wisely.

[imported_tjl]

My only problem with the latter suggestion is that you shouldn't just give the power of multiclassed chars to characters who want to remain pure for free. There should be a comparable time/money/effort investment.

absolutley.

[Phillip]

2 friends quit, 5 accounts canceled.

i mean seriously, a game bleeding as this, what dev in the right mind would come up with such ideas that's about taking away one of the very few things people love?

next up, we'll use the UI from Wish...got it cheap on eBay.

[Jah]

Not that I take what DB says as a guarantee...but he has said we will be able to level all our classes past 100 on an older thread and on this one he suggest that the plan is to give classes definition and a distinct advantage to use as main for a particular role vs just haveing it as stuffing. This doesn't hurt multiclassing and greatly helps gameplay IMO [ amorphous chars [N] ]. Of course until it is executed one can only speculate...

[LaughingOtter]

2 friends quit, 5 accounts canceled.

i mean seriously, a game bleeding as this, what dev in the right mind would come up with such ideas that's about taking away one of the very few things people love?

Oh, please cut the dramatics. Nothing is being changed or taken away. David already clarified that.

[imported_Twelvebagger]

Is my role playing me?

Most would say yes, I suppose.

I level my character because it is fun, because I get more powerful, but most of all, because there is no content to keep me amused, and the end result is I quit, I make a new toon, or I take another class to 100, and the latter has been my choice.

It seems to me that everyone is scared of changes to the current system for fear that it will be a nerf (and based on the past, that's probably justified). However, maybe it's remotely possible that a change would be put in place that would allow us to still be rewarded for the work we put in?

I mean, I would have to guess that the biggest reason people would fear change is that they would lose the work they put in to achieve the power they had... maybe there's a change that could be made that would allow us to preserve that?

Of the opinions I've read, I like the idea of granting a mechanism for pure-class players to EARN rewards based on staying pure, perhaps some skills that require exp to earn and are not attainable once multiclassing is done..

Ultimately, I think any major changes to the current system, if viewed as bad, would drive away more players than it would bring in new ones, and I for one would not be in favor of it strictly by that assumption. The majority of this game consists of multiclassed characters, and while that doesn't make their opinion any more valuable than a single classed character, it certainly would drive decisions from a company that relies on population for income.

Just my thoughts.
-12-

[Charlson]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Phillip wrote:2 friends quit, 5 accounts canceled.

i mean seriously, a game bleeding as this, what dev in the right mind would come up with such ideas that's about taking away one of the very few things people love?


Oh, please cut the dramatics. Nothing is being changed or taken away. David already clarified that.

He isn't being drammatic just stating the facts, two of our guild members and hardcore players from the game's beginnings just did walk away, mostly due to statements and actions of devs recently among other things... Anyway, back to the topic... multiclassing is the reason many of us that are still here still play this game.

[Goriax]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]LaughingOtter wrote: [img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Phillip wrote: 2 friends quit, 5 accounts canceled.

i mean seriously, a game bleeding as this, what dev in the right mind would come up with such ideas that's about taking away one of the very few things people love?


Oh, please cut the dramatics. Nothing is being changed or taken away. David already clarified that.

He isn't being drammatic just stating the facts, two of our guild members and hardcore players from the game's beginnings just did walk away, mostly due to statements and actions of devs recently among other things... Anyway, back to the topic... multiclassing is the reason many of us that are still here still play this game.

If they walked away because of the vague comments made on this thread they were most likely going to be walking away regardless.

[Vlisson]

@David any ETA for the planned changes of the Multiclass System?

Hello David

can you tell us any (time) plans about this changes?

next month?

next 2 month?

next 4 month?

or next year?

thanks

[Vlisson]

hmm one question:

hmm i think i misread something, DB tells us about the multiclass system

but not the existing HZ multiclass system

he talks about a new world he would create...

so no relation to our game?

[Vlisson]

hmm

but why talks DB about changes he would apply to a new world?

its sounds like if i tells you if i would be president of a new contry i would do ....

its only confusing

it seems that Tulga works / thinks about their new world and game more then about our Horizons?

[Cadfael]

hmm

but why talks DB about changes he would apply to a new world?

its sounds like if i tells you if i would be president of a new contry i would do ....

its only confusing

it seems that Tulga works / thinks about their new world and game more then about our Horizons?

I reached the same conclusion, but as I was writting a post about it earlier in the day, I thought it could be understood as a rant or a total madness and I deleted it.

"I was writting that when seeing the changes (I do not say there were none) for the last 9 month, I really have the feeling that they do not put as many developpement power as they can, and that their main dev/design people are working for another project.
That they learned a lot with Horizon/Istaria but I suspect they consider their game as lost, and decide to abandonned it as it is.

I am most probably wrong but who really knows after all the lies they made since the release ? "

[Vlisson]

yes it seems like they plan a new game

i heared tales about dangit work on it, with pvp, next year to be published

and HZ will get empty, with no support i fear

[Vlisson]

so no answer by Tulga is the best answer :(

[LaughingOtter]

Can we please leave the conspiricy theories and paranoid fabrications to L0Zer and the rest of his cult at VN?

This has veered so far off topic, I think it's time to lock it down & go on.

[Phillip]

you got brown stuff all over there Otter...

[Nalrach]

[quote user="Aamer Khan]Untill we have a clear answer on what was meant by the reference to David's vision, I am calling on everyone to let the developers know why you like the skill sets you have worked hard to gain, and what it would meen if you lost them. [/quote]

I'm a healer / spiritist / guardian. My main class which I'll return as soon as caps are raised is healer.

As healer, I went to get some level in spiritist, which permits me as a support class to help team mate killing the mobs. A lot has to be for filling the empty time space, whwn waiting for my healing skill to be required.

As a crafter / healer, I get my but kicked when I'm trying to gather t5 resources. Playing "run away" when your in cargo gear, because has healer you cannot stand & figth, is depressing and boring. The guardian class permits me to stay put and claim the land under my resource node. Also the guardians allow me to keep some of my healer skill at good levels. Plus, the snare come handy when I venture as healer.

Nope in my book if your removing the ability to use the skill when in your othe class, since you work so hardto get, for me it's the nail in the coffin.

I understand you want to find a way to stop those power leveller, that might be grinding the them they online. But for someone like me that has 1.5-3 hours to dedicate to playing .. every xp & skill I got was earned.

If your gonna cut this cross skill usage, and saying only one class ... you better do the followings:

- Raise the caps to way above 150, up to possibly 200.
- Find a way for me to transfer my hard earned XP, Iworked for to my main class.

As to skills & spells, well ... the 20 level progression chart is there ... just put the data (+10, +25 here and there) in the database, and get forms out

[belezar]

You're right, it isn't the same as any other place. So why have any rules at all? Why have limitations? Just let everyone max out every stat and every skill and ascend to godhood once one removes the last vestiges of "mortality". Wait, I forgot, we already have that! Minus the ascension, that is.

1. Perhaps multi classing could be limited to say 3 or 4 classes on one character.
1.1 Less strict would be no limitations on the mix.
1.2 Greater strictness would see branches come in that would disallow certain combinations.

2.Another idea what if they keep the current multiclass system where you can level unlimited classes but then you can mix and match a total of 3 or 4 effective classes from your total class pool. So if I have 8 classes at lvl 100, I can open a dialog box and select 3 or 4 that become my effective class.
2.1 Less strict would be no limitations to the mix
2.2 Greater strictness would see restrictions on combinations.

Personally I'm returning to Horizons and one thing attracting me is the open ended multi classing. Im open to concepts that allow the unrestricted class levelling with perhaps some limitations discussed above.

My choice would be for option 2. and 2.1

I don't know if I have a problem with a "pally" casting lightning bolts or not. The problem is this: "What is a Horizons Paladin?". As far as I can tell, the classes are nothing more than skeletal mechanics, bundles of advantages and disadvantages, bonuses and limitations, with the option to mix 'n' match bundles to bolster the advantages and eliminate/reduce the disadvantages; all with a name tag attached that has no more significance in the world. That leaves everyone to say "well, I think a Paladin is X", where X is different for each individual. Trouble is, when someone says they are a Paladin to me, I have NO CLUE what that means without having to hear his/her/its life's story. Multiclassing makes things even murkier.

I think that it's good you don't know what a Paladin is without knowing their life story. Coming from EQ and EQ2 where each class is so narrowly defined is atrocious. It lacks any imagination or divergence in gameplay. Tanks taunt, wizards nuke, enchanters mez, healers heal it's all so straight up and down. Every class is a cookie cutter following the latest FOTM min/max number crunching.

So you see a Guardian in EQ for example and you know what armour he should be wearing to be more effective, you know what skill he should be using to be most effective etc.. etc.. it's simply a very straight jacket approach.

As a result, going by the mechanics alone, I would have to say that I do have a problem with a Paladin casting a lightning bolt, as Nature is not within the Paladin class' repertoire of skills. Thus, if some claim to be a Paladin and cast lightning bolts, they are not true Paladins to me, and I would consider it a misnomre.

In real life, you cannot effectively be a Master Electrician/Plumber/Carpenter, as each one of

In real life, I can't teleport or heal myself from near death to full health in seconds. If I die I would stay dead.

I think primary focus should be fun. I can suspend my belief of teleportation and flying dragons for game purposes, I sure can suspend my belief that my character can master many schools of craft and adventure.

those professions at that level requires a significant amount of dedication. Sure, you may be able to go through the various apprenticeships, and pass any requisite licensing exams so that you can acquire the title, but your experience and capability will NEVER equal that of someone who has been doing ONLY ONE of those professions for the same amount of time. As a contractor, I would tend to hire the more dedicated professional than the "Jack of All Trades", the latter who probably is the "Master of None".

Same principle applies to people who get multiple Doctorate degrees versus those who have dedicated their lives to one specific field of study.

Same principle applies to medical professionals. General Practitioners will often refer you to a Specialist for serious conditions. Why is that?

Again I think it's highly inappropriate to make real life comparisons to a high fantasy game environment. I would take entertainment over realsim any day. Take permanent death as the most classic example.

However as I previously said I'm not entirely opposed to some restrictions as long as the freedom to multiclass exists [:)] I especially like my option 2. and 2.1 above.

Lastly, I applaud Tulga for at least consenting to look at the issue, let alone do something about it. That would be a bonus. My suggestion remains to use ability averaging to compensate for lack of focus. It is a reasonable compromise, and it at least gives the pure-class folks an edge in their chosen "profession". I also would look to get rid of the HARD cap, and go with a REAL "soft cap", taking the skills and abilities far beyond anything attainable by any player for the next year or two.

I also realize that there will be resistance to change, especially when the change results in a reduction. Humans tend to get very protective and defensive of the status quo when it benefits them personally, taking it as an entitlement when resisting any change to it, even if it is beneficial overall.

Personally I think the players that have stuck with Horizons (sorry to say that I am not one of them but I have returned) should have a big say on any such changes. They are the ones who have stayed the course and deserve to be listened to.

One solution would be to have a separate server with the new ruleset, unfortunately people being people would tend to gravitate to the option that gives them the most power, i.e. open ended multiclassing. Secondary problem being lack of subscribers to float a new server.

Again option 2. and 2.1 above I think would allow sufficient scope for allowing unlimited multiclassing with a restriction of 3 to 4 active classes at any one time. But not say 8 or 10 classes active at the same time.

To them, all I can say is "Things change, Kundun". Adapt or die. In the case of the game, keep playing or cancel. Saying you will cancel if they take away your entitlements doesn't mean much. I seriously doubt subscriptions are sustaining the game as it is now anyway; investment funds are. Thus, they are looking to the future players for getting back into the black and back on the track to growth. I would also hazard a guess that the percentage of people who quit over a rebalancing would be roughly the same as the number who will stay and/or re-sub because of it. As a result, I believe it is a zero-sum game for them. Leave it as is, lose ~X players; change it, lose ~X players, simply over the issue itself. The long-term effects are another matter entirely, though.

The problem is if you eliminate one of the HIGHLIGHTS of Horizons (multiclassing) and point the game in a more traditinal direction e.g. EQ, DAoC etc.. then you further reduce one of the UNIQUE aspects of the game and one of it's attractions.

If you read the thread on List the Reasons You Like Horizons there are many many many people who list multiclassing as one of those reasons. If you clamp down too hard on that you could well have negative impact on the subscriber base, then you would have to see the current MMOG market and see if a non multiclassed Horizons offered what other non multiclassed games offer and evaluate if people would actually switch to Horizons now that there is no multiclassing. I think NOT.

Im being overly repetivie but again I would if pressed suggest at most options 2. and 2.1 above with more resources directed at the client side rewrite, more high level content, more monsters to fight etc...

No, I am not necessarily saying that my opinion is beneficial overall, just that whatever they determine is the best course for the game, even if it is seen as an attack on said "entitlements" by some people, should be done. The Rod of Game Balance swings both ways, nerf AND buff. Its judicious and prudent use in both modes will make a positive difference in the game in the long term.

[Pharcellus]

*casts Superior Resurrect on dead horse* Success!

*casts make_yellow_text_on_white_background_readable* Failed!

I think that it's good you don't know what a Paladin is without knowing their life story. Coming from EQ and EQ2 where each class is so narrowly defined is atrocious. It lacks any imagination or divergence in gameplay. Tanks taunt, wizards nuke, enchanters mez, healers heal it's all so straight up and down. Every class is a cookie cutter following the latest FOTM min/max number crunching.

So you see a Guardian in EQ for example and you know what armour he should be wearing to be more effective, you know what skill he should be using to be most effective etc.. etc.. it's simply a very straight jacket approach.

I agree with the notion that you shouldn't necessarily be able to look at someone and go "lookie! Paladin" and know everything about that character, including what he had for lunch. HOWEVER, Horizons is a class-based system, and you have the ability to consider targets, so some of that is unavoidable. My problem is not so much knowing any specific character to the nth degree, but being unable to determine what it means to be a part of a school to the nth degree, since joining multiple schools blurs the distinctions that I think the classes SHOULD have. Otherwise, what is the point of having classes? Just switch to a pure skill system and be done with it.

In real life, I can't teleport or heal myself from near death to full health in seconds. If I die I would stay dead.

I think primary focus should be fun. I can suspend my belief of teleportation and flying dragons for game purposes, I sure can suspend my belief that my character can master many schools of craft and adventure.

Again I think it's highly inappropriate to make real life comparisons to a high fantasy game environment. I would take entertainment over realsim any day. Take permanent death as the most classic example.

I think just the opposite, that it is HIGHLY appropriate to make real life comparisons to a high fantasy game environment, where they matter to MAKE the game fun and playable. Realistic elements are incorporated into fantasy worlds all the time, and form the foundations of many things people can do.

Otherwise, why have rules? I shoot you! Fall down! No? WHY NOT???

As I have said umpteen gajillion times before, SOME AMOUNT OF REALISM IS REQUIRED TO SUSPEND DISBELIEF. That includes having consistent rules that real-life people can identify with. Remember, you're a real-life person playing a fantasy game. If the game is completely abstract and inconsistent with anything in reality, it will be hard for you to identify with, and thus make the game less "fun". A silly example: Every time you swing your sword at a rock elemental, the only thing that happens is a pint of water appears in your inventory. Cope with that.

Personally I think the players that have stuck with Horizons (sorry to say that I am not one of them but I have returned) should have a big say on any such changes. They are the ones who have stayed the course and deserve to be listened to.

Thanks for the support! [:)] (beta player, have played continuously since, pay for 3 accounts). I don't necessarily agree, but I can appreciate the thought, anyway.

The problem is if you eliminate one of the HIGHLIGHTS of Horizons (multiclassing) and point the game in a more traditinal direction e.g. EQ, DAoC etc.. then you further reduce one of the UNIQUE aspects of the game and one of it's attractions.

Well, that may be, but I have never advocated eliminating it. I have advocating restricting it in an attempt to balance it.

If you read the thread on List the Reasons You Like Horizons there are many many many people who list multiclassing as one of those reasons. If you clamp down too hard on that you could well have negative impact on the subscriber base, then you would have to see the current MMOG market and see if a non multiclassed Horizons offered what other non multiclassed games offer and evaluate if people would actually switch to Horizons now that there is no multiclassing. I think NOT.

Actually, at the time I am posting this response, only 8 of 17 posts list Multiclassing, and two do so with some reservation. I don't consider that a very good percentage in support of a feature. Now, if you really want a contrast, let's start a "List the Reasons You DON'T Like Horizons". Multiclassing, the way it is, would figure prominently near the top of my list.

Again, I have never advocated getting rid of Multiclassing. Only "fixing" it.