Is your role playing you? ( David Responds page 4 )

[Vlisson]

ok paladins are granted powers by their deity

if the deity is a thunder god it would fit

but this would only be some spells, not all of a druid

i think paladin is not a good expample to talk about multiclassing

a paladin is a hybrid like a reaver

if i think about a dark paladin then its a reaver! but like said before its only my point of view and shall not be the ultimate answer! so please no anger against me!

if we would have 200 lvls then no one would multiclass like hell anymore! all would gain experience in their main class and do some lvls to enhance. but at lvl 100 there is no further way in this school!

[Pharcellus]

In my opinion, that is the RP beauty of multiclassing...Sure, you're a paladin, a holy warrior, but you also learned other weapon styles (Warrior), studied with clerics to increase your healing prowress (Cleric) and spent your early years in the forest (Druid)...What a class is in HZ is a framework that you can add bits and pieces to and ties it all together, if you so wish...nobody is forcing you to

I don't have a problem with the notion of a Paladin learning a new weapon style, increased healing prowess, or Druidic skills. What I DO have a problem with is that they are learned at base mastery as someone who is nothing BUT a Cleric OR Druid alone, and with no detriment towards the base class than someone who is Paladin alone. I like the ability to customize characters stats and skills as well, but I also like to have it balanced and make sense.

Then I would consider any Helian that uses T&C to be a misnomre, and any Lunus that uses a Primal ability or spell to be a misnomre

That's fine, except for two things: 1) Helian/Lunus are not classes, but political philosophies outside of the notion of training, and 2) there are no significant differences between the two factions skill/attribute-wise anyway (no, +20 Primal/T&C isn't significant). Nor should that be changed, either.

Dunno if you got the memo, but you can't be a 'specialist'...Level cap is at 100 pal, do if you want to get better, the only way is to expand you skills...no other way around it right now...

Yah, maybe you should read what I posted, hence:

I also would look to get rid of the HARD cap, and go with a REAL "soft cap", taking the skills and abilities far beyond anything attainable by any player for the next year or two.

That would lay the foundation for a "specialist".

Beneficial for all? Gimme a break..."Yeah, uh...it doesn't matter if you have spent a year or more aquiring these skills and learning a fighting style. You don't get them anymore...Why? Oh yeah, it evens the playing field with the people who 'chose' to remain single classed and dragons, who are currently being improved..." I've got an idea...let's nerf hoard to, that way something a dragon has been working on for a long time gets thrown in the trash too...

I didn't say "beneficial for all", I said "beneficial overall". So what? If it goes against the vision of the game designers, I would hope they would have the wisdom to look beyond a short-term setback to long-term gain.

Guess what? Hoard is already in the planning stages of getting changed, and some of the proposed changes are going to be perceived as nerfs. Those with huge hoards won't be happy. As long as the resultant system is BENEFICIAL OVERALL, guess what? I am good with it (I have a capped hoard right now, too).

Perhaps I have blinders on, but I have seen nothing but outrage by the players...you think Istaria is empty now? Wait till what happens if a major nerf on multiclassing rolls out...I'd probably leave then, cause I would become useless...can't solo the tougher mobs, less effective in a group 'if' I can find one and won't be able to craft more than one class...Hmm, only metal armor, sorry new guys, I can't make you a weapon and the games weaponcrafter isn't online right now...

Hmm. I can see plenty of people who support the notion of addressing ("nerfing", to you) multiclassing posting even in this thread. I think it is funny that you've already decided what the effects of the changes will be and what your resulting course of action is before you would even consider what the actual changes are. Your mind is made up, closed; so be it. As it stands now, I have about had enough of the game's problems, and the game system is chief among them for me.

The crafting side wouldn't be any different than the adventuring side. I am not suggesting that you can't take more than one crafting class, but you won't be as good at any particular one as someone who focuses in it. Besides, even with REALLY unlimited crafting multiclassing right now, people still beg in Marketplace for days for someone to make something low-to-mid-level for them.

I have yet to see you call for a buff to both bipeds and dragons, while I have seen lots of people, both sides, asking for increased dragon skills and ablities to bring them into line...

Perhaps you should read what I say more often and more carefully. For example, I have campaigned for Monks and Confectioners for well over a year now. The increased Dragon abilities are and should be part of this process. Maybe we need classes, too. I am all for it, as long as they aren't just carbon copies of biped classes. I don't mind putting in the same amount of effort for the same reward, however, I still support the notion of limited multiclassing for Dragon classes as much as for biped classes. If one wants to be a Dragon Primalist and a Dragon Feral Warrior, fine; one won't be as good in either alone as someone else who stays focused in one of the classes, and I think that is the way it should be.

All I ever hear from the anti-multiclassing group is nerf, never improve...

Then you aren't listening. I don't support blanket buffs, nor do I support blanket nerfs. I support a balanced approach, one that is couched in a modicum of common sense in terms of game design.

The one thing that people seem to miss is that, sometimes, nerfs CAN be as beneficial as buffs.

[imported_tjl]

Perhaps I have blinders on, but I have seen nothing but outrage by the players...you think Istaria is empty now? Wait till what happens if a major nerf on multiclassing rolls out...I'd probably leave then, cause I would become useless...can't solo the tougher mobs, less effective in a group 'if' I can find one and won't be able to craft more than one class...Hmm, only metal armor, sorry new guys, I can't make you a weapon and the games weaponcrafter isn't online right now...

and do you know why the tougher mobs are impossible to solo with a single class?

[Seikojin]

:o the abilities and spells i get through multiclassing do help, but it could be different and better IMHO...

Thats why I have that long post about removing tier based abilities... and along with it, customizing the abilities you do get, combos, quested abilities... things like that...

I am all for limitations in multiclassing as long as a balance is struck that makes it worthwhile.

For that I cant see limits unless as an unbuffed warrior, you could solo your rank without dying... That way your teched armor and abilities/spells would serve a real purpose.... To kill more mobs... Right now its; be min maxed or die...

[Sajid]

Multi-classing has two basic buckets (craft & adventure). Bi-ped craft is just dandy where it is and "most" agree so I will not touch this aspect other than to say I like being able to build my plot without needing 5 different toons.

Adventure multi-classing hasthree different purposes to me in order of importance:
1) Stats
2) Spell casting skill
3) Abilities

I do not take a class for a few abilities alone. If it provides each of my priority list I will take it.

For example:
1) Druid (main) Nature skill, buffs (ability & augs), revit lines, and yes... CoT
2) Spiritist - spirit spells in lieu of shamen expulse, life taps, spirit walk, fun stuff + focus stat
3) Cleric - makes up for not so tasty nature aug skill, adds 4 more usable heals, shield use to make up for druid not so tasty skill, health (OMG this was nice), resurection, and the only biped area effect debuff I know of (dispirit foes)
4) Mage - (really fun class) power stat, perf/multi abilities, stunning energy bolt, arcane buffs (off/def), melee ward, etc

I have considered conjuror for the buffs and multi-cast II, however, I am on hold until the restructuring is figured out. But for me multi-classing is simply growth in areas that my main class is weak, and I don't pick a class I cannot solo the levels myself. Each one provides a unique challenge and great learning experience.

Does this add to RP? For me it does... I am a priest with arcan power... just don't stand to close when the heal backfires [:|]

[imported_Ssilmath]

I have yet to see someone with 8 level 100 classes match 8 single classed level 100 people...perhaps equivilant to 4 of them...Supermulticlassed people aren't the gods they are made out to be...Try it sometime, I'm sure you'll agree...

[evilkarl]

I have RP reasons for my class selection that is enough for me.

No amount of multiclassing will turn someone into an invincible god.

[Sajid]

I think there are more "Power" choices than there are "Roleplay", you just are afraid to admit it because you KNOW what the problem is....

Well, roleplaying is in the eye of the beholder for sure, but what the problem is? Now, I am honestly interested in the conversation because it is not another biped vs dragon re-run. I just am not sure what you are trying to convey.

I think initially there were power choices, then "keep busy" choices mixed with "why nots" and bandwagons. Regardless, the interesting part of RP is the innate ability to incorporate almost anything assuming background has been built. This is not a problem if it keeps folks busy and active in my perception.

[imported_Ssilmath]

"May or may not affect them in a negative fashion"

Kumu, you are so full of it...I am not an absolutely overpowered character, nor would I be if I finished my quilt...But I would be affected quite negatively...Would have to change my fighting style, no more crafting more than metal armor, sorry newbie, can't make you a sword, they nerfed multiclassing...

Do you dragons ever think about anything other than your petty inferiority complexes?

[Sajid]

So, on one hand, I want to believe David's words and await the allmighty nerf hammer to fall upon multiclassing and obliterate the absolutly overpowered players. On the other hand, the people that aren't abusing the system to obtain god characters may have to adapt to changes that may or may not affect them in a negative fashion.

Nerf hammer is far from what we need... I admit some folks are really powerful... I would rather see the MOB bar raised and dragons get the lovin coming soon and then some than nerfs. We don't need an exodus over a game mechanic. Perhaps just an all around boost and a meaner enemy that is REALLY worth fighting... and perhaps different boss mobs for dragons and bi-peds to further avoid the touchy stuff that can come from that you-vs-me stuff that is prone to happen.

Negativity is far from what we need in my humble opinion. Yet I understand your point and think Tulga could/should move forwards with the game and not backwards. One can hope anyway right?

[imported_Ssilmath]

You know Kumu...

You are right...I'm not privy to the inner workings of Tulga...I'm just afraid, from past history, that they will do something that will render all of my work, all of my plans and all of the RP I have developed null and void...and yes, I do actually roleplay Ssilmath as a multiclassed, semipowerful character and am now trying to align his classes with that...

But who knows right now...More than likely I'm the one that is full of it...All I want from Horizons is all I have done so far...Roleplay, have a character that I can customize and is not limited by his initial class choice and can craft as I want...If any of those are taken away, I'll be a very unhappy Sslik, for whatever that is worth...

[Sajid]

Relax Ssilmath... no need to get alarmed yet... I think Chris is making changes to the management logic behind the game... loot, boss mobs, dragon love, etc.

We also know Tulga is gearing up to expand the player base. That simply does not leave room for mass nerfs ya see. I am not the smartest guy in the world, but I know what suicide is. Something tells me Chris T is smarter than I am and you don't have to spend your nights awake worried about your time invested. Just a thought.

[Joaqim]

Yes I'm one of those higher multiclassed one, Rating 152. I can mass murder groups of some T5 stuff like Giant Beetles. Shouldn't I be able to do this with an mob which rating is about 60 lvl below me? Not my optinion imho....if you don't think so, make a group of 30 (or 3x10)lvl 40+ players and kill Mhedon!

On the other hand, even at the T4 mobs in the WD spiral, I can't stand a longer fight down there, after some time spawn is to large and a bad caster combo appears and I hit the ground - that with stuff half of my rating. Good luck to all Arop dragons, when there might be the same 40 lvls higher without all those "owerpowered" players.

But well it's kind of funny that all Dinos around seems to be that postive about multiclass limits,is that because you really think hiting 100/100 without much left to do is really that much fun or because you feel not mighty enough with those multiclasses bipets around?

[Vahrokh]

Please don't generalize. I am not a "dino" nor I am positive about nerfing multiclassed people.

I'll even go beyond. I think that dragons will get too much "power" with ARoP and the suggested "dragon love" like the 8AC bonus etc.

That is, not too much power per se, but too much for the effort.
I'd prefer to "incarnate" the multiclasser like power they get doing nothing but levelling to a single 100 (and ARoP will be just a quest after all, so more "free" power) with some skill point system that require some token of effort to achieve what bipeds have to by killing for weeks.

I.e. you will earn 8AC raising hoard => prize for effort and this is good.
But to unlock "heal recycle" you'd have to unlock the skill, which will require i.e. 5M exp done by killing stuff.
Rinse and repeat for the other "freebies" coming soon for dragons.

[Joaqim]

Hmmm that wasn't pointed in your direction, it was to all or at least most those Dinos who were around in all the threads about the multiclass redoing/nerfing.

[C`gan]

"Is your role playing you?"

Tagath is a 37/21 dragon. I'm not exactly sure HOW he got 37 levels of adventure so quickly, but he's done it. His original intent was to be a builder with the lairshaper class (Please may we have the dragon classes????????) He actually was one of the founders of a small guildclear back in January of 04. Many were the times pre-merge on Dawn when you could go out to the blighted sandstone of Mahagra and hear him shout "Bad puppy! No Jerky Treat!" at a passing wolf and the wolf would run away and leave him alone to continue collecting sandstone.

With the need for construction in Obsidian Order, and because it was time Tagath had his partner, I brought in C`gan. C`gan's only a warrior, as far as adventure classes go, and not even a strong one at that. His capabilities lie in the construction classes. He's a 48 enchanter, 40 fitter, 30 mason, 28 carpenter, 21 weaver. His time for building across Istaria is always in high demand. Many days he's started out working on one project and ending up swapping classes to handle a second, third, or even fourth project.

To address this idea of the multiclassing "nerf", Let me ask everyone this. Are there skills in a class (or classes) you don't use? By picking up other classes, do they still not get used? My best way of proving the point is by example.C`gan's not a jeweler, yet due to his blacksmith levels, he's able to start working with tier 3 gems. Why? He's obviously more designed for the heavy labor of construction than the fine-tuned craftsmanship of jewelry. I'd propose adjusting for multiclassing in a way that still keeps things fair. If there are things you're not wanting to use from a certain class, why not adjust those points downward to bolster things you do use? In C`gan's case, dropping the jewelry points into stoneworking or smelting. Along those same lines, people are wanting to pick and choose different abilities and/or skills from different schools in augmentation of their classes. To that end, why not allow spend training points or gain some type of training experience bonus to things they're actually using? For example, someone mentioned a paladin using lightning bolt. In the RP sense, that paladin could serve a nature/weather deity? In the logistics sense, instead of having to take an entire class to get the nature spell skill, he could spend some kind of skill/training point to acquire and advance that particular one without having to have all the ranger or druid class things added in.

[imported_tjl]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Kumu Honua wrote:So, on one hand, I want to believe David's words and await the allmighty nerf hammer to fall upon multiclassing and obliterate the absolutly overpowered players. On the other hand, the people that aren't abusing the system to obtain god characters may have to adapt to changes that may or may not affect them in a negative fashion.


Nerf hammer is far from what we need... I admit some folks are really powerful... I would rather see the MOB bar raised and dragons get the lovin coming soon and then some than nerfs. We don't need an exodus over a game mechanic. Perhaps just an all around boost and a meaner enemy that is REALLY worth fighting... and perhaps different boss mobs for dragons and bi-peds to further avoid the touchy stuff that can come from that you-vs-me stuff that is prone to happen.

Negativity is far from what we need in my humble opinion. Yet I understand your point and think Tulga could/should move forwards with the game and not backwards. One can hope anyway right?

I would like to see the mobs stay as there are. They have already beefed them considerably at least twice, and characters who do not have heals and heals over time already have it really tough. The issue isn't necesarialy the mulitclassed biped vs. dragons... there are a lot of bipeds out there that do not have massive amounts of heals/armor/health and so forth.

had a lot of people chosen not to mulitclass a whole ton, they might find that all the mobs ingame now are mean, and make challenging battles.

[kengar]

I've got two mains and several alts. The only one that isn't multiclassed is the dragon, my original main.

My other main is a lvl 100 Paladin. He's currently leveling Healer, Druid, and Spiritist. I'm not a hardcore roleplayer, but I've got a character concept for him that I focus on. Tank, buffing, secondary healing, and as many group buffs as I can pick up. Healer so that he can continue to cast T5 Life/Augmentation spells after moving his TP to more melee-oriented skills, Druid for Nature's Fury, Field of Growth, Forest Mist, and Vigor/Vivacity (oh, and Earthen Crust and Regrowth). Spiritist for Ethereal armor, of all things, Soul Shield, and Spirit Resistance. It works fairly well. He can survive Mhedon's avalanche of ore by a wide margin, even in padded ironsilk armor (I was SHOCKED to learn that, thought I was going to get plastered when it recycled). And yes, that build makes a solid farmer when I need some coin.

However, when I farm, I do it as druid, because I don't think like a spellcaster when he's a paladin. For the same reason, when he's not using a 2-handed sword in paladin form, he uses a large shield, but I only use a medium when in druid or healer form, because the large shield just doesn't seem right, even though there's no other downside to it. So for the most part, I don't abuse the multiclassing, though I see where it is abusable, even with the build I used.

While multiclassing may be a little too powerful, I think the ease in getting powerleveled is the greater part of the problem. I've soloed almost every one of those healer/druid/spiritist levels, and not one level was earned on Elnath, though I may start hunting there now that my rating is getting into the upper 110's in my alternate classes.

Now, given that it seems that tweaking to multiclassing is coming, what tweaks would affect me how much? If they tighten up what spells can be cast by which schools, my paladin will probably drop Spiritist, as the one ability that is important and core to the concept isn't worth a 10 point adventure rating hit. Druid would be a bit of a toss-up, as I do use three abilities in paladin mode.

On the other hand, if they say that whenever you're not in that class, you only get 75% of the skill you earned, then healer will likely get dropped, and I won't be happy about that. Why? Because what I get from healer is
[*]Instant Heal[*]Group Instant Heal[*]Healing Adept[*]Much higher Life/Augmentation skill.[/list]
Now, dinging Life and Augmentation by 25% would reduce Life to 810 base and Augmentation to 735 base, assuming lvl 100 healer. This, compared to 790 and 695 for a lvl 100 paladin. I don't think a 10-point AR hit is worth 20 points of Life and 40 points of Augmentation, even with the other things thrown in.

So, I guess you can say I'm opposed to limiting multiclassing this way, unless the reduction is not applied to a skill you receive in your current class, even if your base is coming from a different class. Even then, life will be harder for the many healers I know that picked up druid or spiritist to have some offensive spell casting abilities, and the shifting base skills means that we'd need multiple tiers of most spells, making the 100-spell limitation even more of a pain.

On the other hand, this is still better than tightly restricting spell usage. Imagine healers that CAN'T cast nature or spiritist spells.

[Aamer Khan]

Let me illustrate my perspective by using myself as the example.

As a lvl 100 scout, 72 cleric, 43 druid, I am far from uber. I can wear Mithril chainmail, and yes it's fully t5 teched. With Mith health jeweley and buffs I can reach 2824 health.

I see myself as a recon and support player. My role is to help find things, provide damage from a distance, and heal where I can. A typical battle will see me standing at the edge of a group, and help by providing pulling and damage support. Some of my specials are particularly suited to my play style. With spray of arrows( hit all mobs within range), and longshot, I can keep any group quite busy with fighting. And with t5 heals can assist in keeping the primary healer standing, or assisting him when his heals have not recycled yet. I am quite happy with my skill set.

However, thats not to say it could not be improved. I have always felt that scouts, over any other archer should be the fastest, see the farthest, and be able to shoot an arrow greater distances than any other. Longshot was one such defining ability. By making it masterable, that watered down my class. restoring it to scout only would not harm other archers at all. They have their own class defining abilities and specials. Or is not scout only, perhaps giving us a special that is better than the other archers.

What I illustrate here is that small things define the role of any class. And some watering down has taken place. If only making small adjustments is what the idea of having skills come into and out of focus, then perhaps it could yet be a good thing. However, if it means that like with craft skills, once you switch adv classes whole lines of skills cease to exist, then this indeed could be disasterous.

Much of the concern that is express here seems to stim from the fear that, if what skills we have worked hard to have so that our character can be effective, were suddenly removed, ( like heals, obvious crossover from within prestiege classes, or skills we depend on to survive) then the response from the playerbase would be so negative, that we fear the game would fail.

Please. Let us know what is the plan. What IS the vision?

[gopher65]

I see spells has being learned knowledge, so I don't think they should be limited.

I see abilities as being gifts from the gods, so I think they should be exclusively used by their school.