A possible solution to the multi-class 'problem'

[Kwinn]

Ok, if one reads enough of the threads here, one cannot help but believe there is a problem with multi-classing as it now exists. Some say it hasn't turned out as intended, others say it needs tweaking or balancing,some dragons seem to think it should be done away with altogether( or so it seems by the volume of their complaints against it).

I submit multi-classing is needed in the game, if for no other reason than most players of a certain race would find it difficult, if not impossible, to complete a certain recently released quest.

However, I will agree that rampant and uncontrolled multi-classing is a problem and offer the following solution...

Limit bipeds to 6 adventure classes. This includes pre-requisite adventure classes. No grandfathering bipeds with more than 6 adventure classes. FYI, I currently have more than 6 adventure classes. Something would have to go. Place an NPC in each town to help players divest themselves of excess classes. And put some sort of hex on them to give them a maximum of 10 hp and zero armor until they do.

Is this harsh? Probably. Will it satisfy everyone? Absolutely not. Will it cause some folks to leave the game? I would think it would.

It will even the playing field somewhat, probably considerably. It will still give biped players many options and it may even bring out some class combinations not yet seen or even considered. I don't think it will promote a 'cookie-cutter' build, with the possible exception of the un-imaginative and/or lazy. And it hopefully will put the multi-class debate on the back-burner and allow debate on topics of more interest, topics haven't been beaten to death, resurrected, and beaten to death again.

This multi-class issue is getting old. I know I'm not the only one tired of it. Let's come up with a solution the majority can live with and get behind it. I offer the above. It's simple, hopefully easy to implement and still leaves some wiggle room. I think that is the biggest thing we should consider, simplicity, ease of implimentantion and room to still be imaginative in one's build.

Kwinn

[Dragonboy]

I read in another thread concerning werewolves that bipeds complaning that they could not take on more then 2 or 3 werewolves at 1 time because of the stuns they use...

Give ALL mobs in istaria a means to stun... Bipeds can at this point multiclass untill they have ALL adventure classes to 100, but still cannot take on more then 3-4 because of the constant being stunned and not being able to attack...

Problem solved !! [H]

Flies of to a safe place

[Phillip]

i don't know anyone who left the game because multiclassing ruined it for them. i do know many who left the game for other known, commonreasons such assucky dragon, sucky loot, sucky economy, sucky lag, sucky CS, and other general sucky things this game possess.

i do know many, many people who continued to play because of multiclassing. i am one of them and i will say so that if multiclassing did not exist, this game would have 50% less subscribers right now. definitely one less here.

this game is known to have multiclassing in it since beta, and release. it is one of its strong points, as promoted heavily. i doesn't take Einstein or an English professor to figure this out. my Cuban chihuahua that's a German Shepherd can do it.

many people have stuck around for a long time because of multiclassing and by taking away or limiting such would just suck for them. it is just plain wrong.

to say that an MMC is too strong or imbalance and such is just dumb. a 200+ rating and 130+ rating can be equal in battle depending on the play and schools acquired. they are by no mean unbeatable. stick 5 Vets on them (with a Shamanor Wizard, Sorcerer) and they are pretty much toast. hey i know, try 5 Elites. some mobs like the farming types, that are just easybut that's no reason to justify limiting or do away with multiclassing unless oneis daft, or:

1) a dragon

2) crafting biped

3) a dragon/biped alt that's more into crafting

from what i have seen threads made promoting such limitations, those are the ones to do so. either they are very much into the crafting aspect of the game, and don't do much adv or that they play a dragon. hardly any merit to post such BS.

those craft loving and/or single school biped that don't like multiclassing, hey, that is your problem. learn to read the ******** manual.

i'm sick and tired of all the dragons constantly using biped MC ascorrellationto their underdevelopment. take it up with the devs to correct your stupid design dammit. stop using biped and constant biatching, moaning, whining about us and promoting penalties and limitations to what many of us enjoy. stop starring at what we can do and be all pissy and stuff. yeah we got MC but we don't have much else through all the suckiness just like you. a lot of us quit just like you. we went through all the bugs, crashes, chpt 11 just like you.

i was on the side of the dragons. i wanted them to be formidable. i pushed for them to have more power. i pushed for them to have multiclassing as well. if they had that, we wouldn't see any dragon wanting to limit MC right now. well we might. some do come on short buses. i never pushed to limit, or anything on the notion of nerf because that don't make the gaming experience better for anyone.

i was on the side of the dragons. now, i couldn't give a rat's white butt if all they get from their ARoP and its carebear requirements is more gimpiness. perhaps they deserve it, because they don't care to push for limits, penaltieson the thingsmany enjoy, for they own cause, to enhance their gaming experience at the expense of others.

[Kulamata]

I do not know of any who left the game because of multi-classing. I do note that some of the highest level adventurers drifted away when the multi-critter xp made extreme multi-classing more difficult, asincreasing their ratingwas their motivation for continuing to play.

I do not know of any beginning or returned players who are ingame because extreme multi-classing was nerfed.

By the only criterion I use,whether players are attracted or retained by a change, the change was not a success.

There is so much of a positive nature to do, and that is being done, that the diversion ofalready inadequate resources for continued fiddling with game mechanicswould beterribly ill-conceived. How does this really compare in importance with lairs,finishing the Ancient RoP, liftingthe level cap, redoing the tutorial areas, adding quests, events, and furnishings, and above all, rewriting the client?

[PJ]

Personally I love it. I solution to fix a problem that doesn't exist, but which wouldn't actually fix it even if it did.

Even assuming, that hypothetically there was some such "problem,"capping multiclassing at 6 schools would do very little to "fix" said hypothetical "problem."

Most of the reward in multiclassing comes from the first 2-3 additional classes. After you've got 6 classes the additional rewards are minimal. All this would really do is PO some of their more dedicated players

[Kwinn]

i don't know anyone who left the game because multiclassing ruined it for them. i do know many who left the game for other known, commonreasons such assucky dragon, sucky loot, sucky economy, sucky lag, sucky CS, and other general sucky things this game possess.

i do know many, many people who continued to play because of multiclassing. i am one of them and i will say so that if multiclassing did not exist, this game would have 50% less subscribers right now. definitely one less here.

this game is known to have multiclassing in it since beta, and release. it is one of its strong points, as promoted heavily. i doesn't take Einstein or an English professor to figure this out. my Cuban chihuahua that's a German Shepherd can do it.

many people have stuck around for a long time because of multiclassing and by taking away or limiting such would just suck for them. it is just plain wrong.

to say that an MMC is too strong or imbalance and such is just dumb. a 200+ rating and 130+ rating can be equal in battle depending on the play and schools acquired. they are by no mean unbeatable. stick 5 Vets on them (with a Shamanor Wizard, Sorcerer) and they are pretty much toast. hey i know, try 5 Elites. some mobs like the farming types, that are just easybut that's no reason to justify limiting or do away with multiclassing unless oneis daft, or:

1) a dragon

2) crafting biped

3) a dragon/biped alt that's more into crafting

from what i have seen threads made promoting such limitations, those are the ones to do so. either they are very much into the crafting aspect of the game, and don't do much adv or that they play a dragon. hardly any merit to post such BS.

those craft loving and/or single school biped that don't like multiclassing, hey, that is your problem. learn to read the ******** manual.

i'm sick and tired of all the dragons constantly using biped MC ascorrellationto their underdevelopment. take it up with the devs to correct your stupid design dammit. stop using biped and constant biatching, moaning, whining about us and promoting penalties and limitations to what many of us enjoy. stop starring at what we can do and be all pissy and stuff. yeah we got MC but we don't have much else through all the suckiness just like you. a lot of us quit just like you. we went through all the bugs, crashes, chpt 11 just like you.

i was on the side of the dragons. i wanted them to be formidable. i pushed for them to have more power. i pushed for them to have multiclassing as well. if they had that, we wouldn't see any dragon wanting to limit MC right now. well we might. some do come on short buses. i never pushed to limit, or anything on the notion of nerf because that don't make the gaming experience better for anyone.

i was on the side of the dragons. now, i couldn't give a rat's white butt if all they get from their ARoP and its carebear requirements is more gimpiness. perhaps they deserve it, because they don't care to push for limits, penaltieson the thingsmany enjoy, for they own cause, to enhance their gaming experience at the expense of others.

Phillip,

you voiced I really have been itching to say but, held off because anytime I try say like this I get my ****** shot off, the post gets stuck in some abscure forum by a fanboi moderator or any number of other unpleasant things.

Thx for taking up my slack. I dont want to see multiclassing touched in any way. I offered a solution to possibly avoid a major nerf if that is what is being considered by the powers that be.


Kwinn

[Jaraiden]

Using the premise of Kulamata's "always add, don't subtract" premise, a change to limit players to 6 adventure classes is not feasible. Had it been in place back in December 2003, I would agree. And with the two NPCs that allow classes to be dropped, could have been done.

Yes, extreme multiclassing was not foreseen, but I have to hope that AE then (and TulgAE now) were and are challenged by improving game performance and adding in content (new and unfinished at release). The priorities set in July 2004 just don't have the managerial drive nor resources. Or the resources are constantly misdirected toward side projects (.::cough::blighted gear::cough::.)

Even looking at game balancing (Maltavorn's analysis) and multiclassing reasonability, the current system needs work. Thus the August 2004 Update of reviewing the classes. Some of the work has been done with the changes in Elemental Archer.

Back to Kulamata's "always add, don't subtract" premise of content for a net effect to attract/retain more players. The solution should be based around rewarding character dedicated to a single class, or modest multiclassing.

Rewards for single/minimal multiclassing

* Passive skill gains for the primary skill set of that class
* Passive statistic gain that reflects that class
* Unique, attune item only usable by that class (force attune, no trading)

So reward the players that have a narrower vision for their character. Most of these players gradually level their character (and opt not to take advantage of TulgAE's PLing design). As other players seek the rewards of finishing task/quest after task/quest of the various schools, let these players finish a quest for better skills, abilities, or something.

If that player opts to add classes, the above rewards won't be available to secondary classes - thus only for the primary class. And as the rating increases, eventually the reward of that passive skill gain or statistic gain will fade (the premise is the trainer rewarded your dedication and saw you as a favored pupil, but no longer).

On the crafting side, where players are able to level every crafting class and thus visit every trainer and thus (in time) do every crafting class task/quest (such as tinkerer now) . . . . reward the dedicated ones also.

* First have the NPCs to drop crafting classes
* Passive skill gains for the primary skill set of that class
* Passive statistic gain that reflects that class
* Unique formula(s) only usable by that class (force attune or scribe, no trading)
* Unique technique(s) for items of that class

Of course, the trainer will confide in that character that just as this knowledge can be granted, so it can be taken.

So, after TulgAE reviews the classes and as they lift the cap to 120, the players or TulgAE should use the Quest Editor to make single class and modest multiclassing quests to reward characters that dedicate themselves to one or a few classes. Something to boost their strengths more, as they knowingly enjoy the challenge of having weaknesses in statistics, skills, abilities, and spells.

[Vahrokh]

i don't know anyone who left the game because multiclassing ruined it for them. i do know many who left the game for other known, commonreasons such assucky dragon, sucky loot, sucky economy, sucky lag, sucky CS, and other general sucky things this game possess.

i do know many, many people who continued to play because of multiclassing. i am one of them and i will say so that if multiclassing did not exist, this game would have 50% less subscribers right now. definitely one less here.

this game is known to have multiclassing in it since beta, and release. it is one of its strong points, as promoted heavily. i doesn't take Einstein or an English professor to figure this out. my Cuban chihuahua that's a German Shepherd can do it.

many people have stuck around for a long time because of multiclassing and by taking away or limiting such would just suck for them. it is just plain wrong.

to say that an MMC is too strong or imbalance and such is just dumb. a 200+ rating and 130+ rating can be equal in battle depending on the play and schools acquired. they are by no mean unbeatable. stick 5 Vets on them (with a Shamanor Wizard, Sorcerer) and they are pretty much toast. hey i know, try 5 Elites. some mobs like the farming types, that are just easybut that's no reason to justify limiting or do away with multiclassing unless oneis daft, or:

1) a dragon

2) crafting biped

3) a dragon/biped alt that's more into crafting

from what i have seen threads made promoting such limitations, those are the ones to do so. either they are very much into the crafting aspect of the game, and don't do much adv or that they play a dragon. hardly any merit to post such BS.

those craft loving and/or single school biped that don't like multiclassing, hey, that is your problem. learn to read the ******** manual.

i'm sick and tired of all the dragons constantly using biped MC ascorrellationto their underdevelopment. take it up with the devs to correct your stupid design dammit. stop using biped and constant biatching, moaning, whining about us and promoting penalties and limitations to what many of us enjoy. stop starring at what we can do and be all pissy and stuff. yeah we got MC but we don't have much else through all the suckiness just like you. a lot of us quit just like you. we went through all the bugs, crashes, chpt 11 just like you.

i was on the side of the dragons. i wanted them to be formidable. i pushed for them to have more power. i pushed for them to have multiclassing as well. if they had that, we wouldn't see any dragon wanting to limit MC right now. well we might. some do come on short buses. i never pushed to limit, or anything on the notion of nerf because that don't make the gaming experience better for anyone.

i was on the side of the dragons. now, i couldn't give a rat's white butt if all they get from their ARoP and its carebear requirements is more gimpiness. perhaps they deserve it, because they don't care to push for limits, penaltieson the thingsmany enjoy, for they own cause, to enhance their gaming experience at the expense of others.

Don't worry if they have half brains left they won't nerf multiclassing. Maybe the "new" Horizons with new engine etc. will place limits but not the current release. Else they are completely brain melted.

About the dragon bit: it used to be true. Some old dragon farts you know well in the end convinced the devs to fix most of the bugs and later came a big buff both in inherent armor and scales and better cleansing spells.

After this update, saying dragons are gimps is just utter BS, if there's still someone claiming that it's really a dramatic loser or in bad faith. And that dragons had just one class was pretty evident since the beginnings so take dragon, take single class and stuff it.

Of course there's the "problem" about nothing to be done once at level 100, but I see hardly any other class having anything to do once at level 100 so it sucks for all. Noneshould be forced to raise tons of classes and craft because there's nothing left to do, it affects all classes. Dragon just got the shaft more than others but it's not like removing the fun off those who can workaround the boredom at level 100 of their class (taking another) will bring any benefit to the game.

To be clearer, dear dragon comrades:we got the shaft. Period. Forget the others, it's not their fault of our sucks. Nerfing them won't bring usanything better.

[Dragonboy]

We cannot nerf the Multi-classers, but we can make the mobs more difficult...
Yeah lets do that! [H]

[imported_Onnidrah]

Think, we need harder mobs and maybe when lvl 120 comes out so we can reach it, They maybe can make a system that u only can have 3 schools or so at lvl 120.
And ofcourse more difficult mobs coz a lvl 90-100 char can already solo a lvl 120.

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

Okay, Hmm... Lot to be said about this. Not just about adventure, but craft multiclassing as well. My goal in this post is to tackle problems I see not just with being able to multiclass, but how players are able to level multiple schools, and how such methods are detrimental to the game as a whole. If you're in a hurry, skip to the bottom and read exactly what I would change.

In the theme of mentioning people that quit due to x reason...

-I know people that quit because they hit 100 in 5+ adventure schools within 2 months and burnt out
-I know 100 jewelers that didn't know jewelery took gems
-I've known level 100 mages that only have training flamebolt scribed and 100 clerics that had no healing spells beyond training revitalize. (Phillips word: Elnoob)
-I've known several people to quit after seeing their 100 levels earned entirely through fighting challenging enemies all by themselves outclassed by some idiot with a lower-case name grabbing the same 100 levels leeching of Elnath in 6 months less time. Their reaction: "What's the point of fighting ligitimate when people can do this?"

Summarized... I think multiclassing itself is almost the way it should be, but the way people obtain those hard-earned (and sometimes not) levels needs a huge amount of work.

The only beef I have with multi-classing is some spells (not abilities) cross over that really shouldn't. For instance, all of the main repeating damage spells like lightning bolt and spirit bolt cross over to every single school. It's not so much seeing a warrior kill things with a spirit bolt, but the fact that a once-spritist-now-warrior will gain warrior experience from using skills in no way related to the warrior school. Therefore it is possible for a warrior to never have picked up a sword, yet gain all the skills and abilities of someone who's spent their entire game career hacking and slashing. You just cannot draw any logic or realism from such a system.

Absudity also follows the concept of powerleveling. Just the fact someone can gain experience while standing around a fight while grouped bugs the heck out of me. I understand that not everyone is supposed to be tanking the enemy, but there are plenty of good ways to work in experience for people that use their skills healing, buffing, rooting, or debuffing while eliminating all XP for morons just standing around leeching from the group.

To relate his to real life, no matter how many times you watch The Matrix, you're not going to learn Kung Fu without getting out of your seat and actually practicing punching someone through time.

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If I ran the world, I'd take some serious time out to work on how experience is gained, at least towards the adventure line. No more rating limitations, instead force players to use skills taught by the school in question to gain XP. Crafting already does this, albeit not always acceptably. Also, recalculate group experience to weight towards those that actually make themselves helpful members of the group. By no means should a player be able to learn mage skills by standing around while all other players nuke purple necroflies with lightning storm and thunder.

In my opinion, the reason people grow sick of fighting and start whining is that fighting has just become too repetitive and boring for them. The current system of multiclassing highly favors already heavily experience skills as means of leveling other schools.

For example: If someone manages to get 100 levels in a magic school giving 10 skill per level in a certain skill (lets use spirit for an example), that person will probably level every single other school with their spirit bolts as a primary attack. It's not wrong for the player to do this, it's just the 'best means' to gain more levels fastest with the current system. It'd be stupid for them to use flame bolts while taking up mage in this example. At level 50 mage their going to have 500 base flame and 1000 base spirit, when already forced to fight things at your rating instead of level, the player is going to use spirit bolts, and ******** well enjoy it.

Overall, I see such practices mentioned above as harmful. The first adventure school you gain is usually the longest and at least to me the most enjoyable. You slowly feel yourself getting more and more powerful, you learn new abilities and how to put them to work for you, and eventually find yourself at the apex of your school's teachings and killing things you could never kill before. However, once you take up another school and attempt to level it solo, things get exteremly dull.

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Example time... let's say Mr. 100 warrior now wants to become a mage. He /really/ wants to be one so much he thinks he'll do all his fighting with flamebolts and mage abilites, forget the blade of rending sitting around in his vault or his friends shouting "dude! ur gonna have 10 pwr per lvl now ur gunna be über"

Going from level 100 in one school to level 1 should give you a rating of about 50. As a level 1 mage, that training flamebolt is going to have one helluva time doing you much good. At best you can use your extra power and hitpoints from warrior to take something in the 25-30 range and slowly work his way up to being able to fight things around his level and enjoy the new school.

More example time... let's say Mr. 100 warrior doesn't really care about how he wants to be a 100 mage, just wants to get there as fast as the game's mechanics will allow.

Solo, he can simply pick up a staff, and beat the living snot out of things. This of course would work very well, as he's going to have Critical Strike III, Multistrike II, and Melee Flurry I from his warrior school. Mr. Warrior can use such skills all the way to 100 if he so pleases, maybe eventually picking up some flame spells since bombs are so freaking great.

With a group though, things get even faster. His level 100 buddies can easily manage to keep him alive while they farm necroflies, spiders, or fyakki. Some enemies tend to go for the lowest rated player, but if Mr. Warrior hangs back just in range, and his friends are sure to attack anything before an enemy spies Mr. Warrior, he's in no real danger.

Using the current 'this wayz best' mechanics of Horizons, our warrior-now-mage is going to have his 100 levels within little time and probably never picking up a flamebolt spell except maybe for kicks.

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What I would do:

Well, enough ranting... here's an idea as to how I'd change multiclassing, presented as an off-the-cuff response combined with some thinking I did a while back.

Step 1.) Eliminate adventure rating's effect on experience in favor of your current school level.

Step 2.) To balance out the change in Step 1, give each school a designated 'primary skill' or skills that can be used to gain experience for that particular school while fighting. Other attacks associated with non-primary skills from other schools would not give experience.

Step 3.) Revamp group experience to the point where experience gained reflects amount of effort put into the fight

Step 4.) Explain what the heck you're doing before everyone cancels and starts whining.

Explaination:

My ideas of multiclassing have always been based on realism. Some would say I'm an roleplaying moron trying to make a computer game 'real,' but I things are still more fun when they make some sort of logical sense. That way, new players can apply logic from the real world to the game, and instead of learning complex rules and nuances, they can just use common sense.

The most logical way to get better at something is to practice. The idea of improving one skill by repetition has been applied to many games from Morrowind to Grand Theft Auto. Problem being the idea can also be exteremely dull and boring if executed ineffectively. I grew tired of Morrowind after realizing I could hold down the jump button overnight and come back with max athletics. It is through combining skills into schools, and having said skills overlap that you can develop a more strategical and unique gameplay experience.

(If you haven't figured this out yet) I believe that when a player wants to learn and become better at a new school, they should fight stuff with skills and abilities learned from that school. With my strength and hp from Paladin, I managed to level Shaman on my own about 5 times as fast as Paladin originally took. It was a long time before I even starting using lightning bolts over a weapon too. I was forced to fight things well over my shaman level to gain experience at a decent rate, and the bolts just weren't effective. If the rating penalty were removed, as is the case with crafting, forcing players to use skills from their current school instead of old skills would be offset, as the player would be fighting lower monsters with new, lower skills instead of killing higher monsters with unrelated skills.

The system I'd impliment for forcing players to level with their new skills would be as follows: Experience gained can only come from using skills marked as 'primary' for that particular school. For instance, shaman would only gain XP from using either nature or blight attacks against their enemy. This would work well for people that do not necessarily fight, such as healers and clerics, simply make 'life' a primary skill and factor its usage into combat. With much reworking and testing, experience calculations could be adjusted to be skill-based instead of just rating-based.

If a player were to use a spell from another school (such as thunder while in the monk school--it does actually cross over), they would still be able to, but at battle's end a certain percentage of their experience would be cut out as 'nature' wouldn't be a primary skill for plain ol' monks. This way you're not cut out from using such abilities from other schools, and are not forced to use them to powerlevel yourself. With the rating limitation out of the way, players could take up new schools much like it was their first, while still retaining the benefits from their old school.

Experience-wise, each enemy should have the ability to give you a certain amount of XP if you kill it entirely with a primary skill taught by your school. By this I mean only offensive attacks -- buffs, gifts, and heals outside of life-giving schools wouldn't effect anything XP-related. Once the battle is ended, calculate a percentage from damage dealt with primary skills over total damage delt, and apply that percentage to the XP you receive. Notice that players with single schools would see very little change with this method.

These are just a few ideas I had about multiclassing, the biggest omission here would be group XP and exactly how to balance that in a skill-based XP system. Ideas on the subject would be welcome.

Comments?

[Phillip]

those ideas are fine, Hal.

your ideas won't solve the multiclassing is a problemodisorder, what a lotof these people constantly squeaking (not you Kwinn). it is to better the way to go about MC and i like them.

now, you want them devsto actually code this stuff? [:|]

personally, i don't have a problem with skills crossing over and stuff. that's fun sometimes. you might not like it, but some other folks might. they earned it, let them enjoy. 3 of the 4 schools i leveled with primary skills, except healer since they got no offense. sometimes, some schools, they just suck. like monk, which is my next school. you need all the help you can get.

[imported_Onnidrah]

If u gonna limit it u get players who get nothing to do and getting borred and leaving and I dont think thats what we need

[oluviel]

Add stamina and mana. Remove the rating penalty. All skills remain as they are now, BUT skills/ abilities/ and regular attacks recieve a stamina or mana penalty cost if they are not part of your current class.

They would also need to make certain classes get larger penalties casting certain types of spells or using certain abilities. Ie a cleric using a mage ability like multicast.

Problem solved, Power remains, but it is not unlimited, andno real revision of the current system.

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

The wasy I see level progression beyond the first level 100 school is this:

Tulga has a big bag of candy with "Horizons" written on it. When you play they have to deal out little bits of candy any time you do something good. What they're doing with multiclassing is handing out candy faster than you can eat it. After a while you're getting so much candy it loses all flavor, and you start thinking about going someplace else. At the same time as new people join, they see these fat players scoffing and huge piles of rewards, and start to question why the heck they should even do tricks for this Tulga thing.

What I believe Tulga should do is put back the effort in gaining schools beyond 100. Ratings already nudge players to fight things well above their actual level when they take a new school, and having such a rating removes the original intent of the new school, forcing the player to use previous school abilities instead of newfound talents. In doing that they foster the idea of breezing through as many schools simply to increase their rating, and shoot themselves in the foot when trying to retain players with new content instead of already existing content.

In my opinion I think Tulga needs to show some initiative and consider a major change to multiclassing before everyone hits 3-4 100's and Tulga is forced to feed a borked fire with bigger, higher-level monsters while alienating the younger playerbase just starting out.

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Another example...

I recently took up bloodmage after shaman as a mix of personal desire and some rp aspects. I started out with spiritist (dropped it after joining shaman) and was at a loss for what to do with my 77 rating at level 1. I tried fighting topaz golems, but couldn't hit them with my spirit bolts. I tried breaking my blade of rending (which is pretty cheezy anyway), but spent about a half-hour getting those first 5 levels off golems. That was dull as heck, so I thought about my nature skill, got a copy of Thunder I made, and brought myself to 36 bloodmage fighing tier III blights and kwellen within 2 hours. It felt like a treadmill instead of a fight, and if I didn't find a new love in the spirit line of spells I'd have probably dropped the school.

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There is no easy fix to this, and anything done will probably upset several people. What needs to be decided is what will keep the most players while protecting beginners and still providing reward for effort. Hard limits only murder die-hard players, mana/stamina would introduce more bugs and unbalance, along with murder die-hard players, and doing nothing is slowly poisoning die-hard players that no longer care about new schools until they reach the 80-100 range.

The best solution (as mentioned in an earlier post) I see is to nuke the rating-based xp model for a skill-based one, force players to level new schools like they leveled their first, and make large changes to how grouping with lower-level players works.

[AA0]

A lot of people make suggestions about fixing the multiclassing problems without really understanding how to play properly. A lot of dragons seem to have very high opinions on the subject when 99% shouldn't, and have an alt biped with a 140 rating that was powerleveled which now makes them an expert.

There are some really good ideas on this subject on the forums, but most of them seem to not really consider all the time aspects, or balancing for all players. You have to consider dragons, single classed players (because they do exist), and the overly multiclassed.

My opinion is that the current system can not remain in place. The classes are not balanced properly at all, the mobs have been over tweaked to the power levers and the hardcore players who are able to afford to tech all their equipment.

The first step that has to happen is a total rebalance of the schools in istaria. The rebalance has to take into account three things. 1. Power. 2. Multiclassing 3. School function.
Power is obvious, each class needs to be rebalanced to the mobs so a single schooled character can defeat the mobs of a similar level in the game. Now not all classes should be able to defeat all mobs, but the class has to remain fun and diverse.

Multiclassing is something that seems completely neglected in the current school version. Abilities that are school defining need to be not masterable. Natures path, spirit bolt, dispirt foes, foresight, and even things like dodge and parry should be not masterable. Has anyone noticed that every single mob has parry and dodge to compensate for every player having it? These abilities need to be special again.

School functions are in desperate need as well. Our world has enemies and schools that are all fought identical ways. A scout is just a nerfed melee school, they don't have anything really special except a 3 second head start on an enemy. A monk is just useless with leather armour, low attack power and abilities that are generically toned down for high hitting warriors. Scout and monk are two heavily limited classes that do not gain a real advantage for their expertise. There is also the other side, the overpowered generic schools, like a heavily multiclassed knoc, or battlemage that just lay down mage like damage with no limits. These classes have lost their uniqueness, in the end they are bombing tanks.

The mobs of the name need to be taken down, reevaluated to the single classed schools and put in the game. The TG method of just raising hp, damage, armour to resist multiclassers is pathetic. The constantly nerfing has thrown the game balance so far out it doesn't even exist anymore. The mobs need to be put back in the game and redistrubited like the crimson scourge are, with varying classes and jobs fighting intelligently to eliminate the gifted. Multiclassed mobs need to be put in the game, like the strength of the current WA mobs, with suitable exp boosts and loot gains.

In the end, I think this will solve the problems with biped multiclassing. As for dragons, all I can say right now for a single schooled class they are very strong, and seem to be getting stronger as TG caves in to every whiny demand. The only way to fix a dragon end game is with ancient, and we don't know whats happening there, so no reason to complain yet.

I think Hal`cyon's exp idea is a good ideal way to go about some changes, but will just ultimately stress the server more than solving the real base of the problem. Exp adjustments are not going to solve broken classes.

Some examples of major problems...
Spiritist - Main weapon is available to everyone, with almost all others available to half the classes. High level mobs hit hard and cloth and have high spirit resistances now. The class is very powerful multiclasses but very very weak singly. I'd suggest making a lesser spirit bolt or something for other classes, much like bloodbolt works for a bloodmage.

All archer classes - have no real purpose as an archer for the most part. They do low damage and can pull only moderately better than a teched spell. Crossbowmen don't do the damage they need to with such low AU, rangers per shot damage is in single damage against t5 WA mobs. They all need a function and damage adjustments.

Monks have all their abilities copied from generic warrior abilities and the like. The high level abilities generally aren't powerful or don't work, they suffer from low dps, and then get damage reduced again on specials like melee flurry, and reuse the same low multipliers that all melee classes do for critical stirkes, etc.

Both monks and archers gain the dodge ability naturally and need to make use of this defensively (along with evasion). Both of those have been hosed to combat the multiclassing problem.

Most prestige classes gain such a low amount of their magically skills they have little choice but to multiclass to increase those skills. As a ranger, the chance I will hit any level 100 mob with 7/level is pretty non-existant. The same goes for many many classes. I don't want to take druid to level 100, but am finding myself having to just to hit anything, or do damage with my spells.


Thats the end of my rant for now on how screwed up some aspects of the combat system are. I can't see how anything but a complete rebalance will fix these problems. And if a rebalance is done, and done by the same people that have led us to this system, then it won't help. The nerfing and quick fixes to stop things have to change, the whole picture has to be considered

[Kulamata]

The thoughts about ratings were very interesting Hal`Cyon. I'd not thought of it quite that way before.

Forcing people to grind through the levels instead of flying through them doesn't seem to me to be a good way to maintain interest though. I took Kulamata to what I thought was a well rounded Ranger (with Spiritist, Shaman and 80+ healer).I then restarted as a dragon hatchling, which is enough different with so much new material, that the lower levels are not the burden that say Healer from 20-40 was. (Above 40 a healer can be genuinely useful in a group. )

The larger problem, for me, is that this would take some real development time, and would undoubtedly need tweaking and balancing for a bit; I'd hate the see it competing for development resources. I fear that Horizons needs quick results. VC's are not infinitely patient [;)], and while such a scheme might be quite a nice improvement I can't see it returning immediate results. And I would be amazed if the funding that the VC's provided were not tied to tight milestones.

Another business model entirely might have (and might still???) work. Blizzard seems to be following in it in WoW, possibly unintentionally. Let players blast through the game, and exhaust the high level content, but if they have FUN doing it, they'll be back for the expansion packs, the sequel, the motion picture...


Oh, I'm not always for adding. Taking away hoard leakage, or cutting the requirement for 25 skill level per tech tier were great subtractions of what had beenfoolish additions.

[Phillip]

"You have to consider dragons, single classed players (because they do exist), and the overly multiclassed."

why?

because dragons were designed to be the most painful, aggrevating, time consuming, utterly frustrating, full of sucky promises, unfinished class?

because some people chose to to stay singleclass in a primarily multiclassing game?
(i will add that most these singleclass are multiclassed in crafting but that's ok)

i don't see a problemo when i enter a hunting ground and there are a ton of MCs stomping around. we have fun, it's what we do. we exchange info, we hunt together, we chat, etc. almost every night i go hunting with these people and i absolutely love it. it is what keeps me here, and the same for them.

as for dragons and singleclass, hey, why should that be our problem?

the problem is not us, multiclassing. the problem is you, sucking.

have you hug your dev today?

[imported_tjl]

The first step that has to happen is a total rebalance of the schools in istaria. The rebalance has to take into account three things. 1. Power. 2. Multiclassing 3. School function.
Power is obvious, each class needs to be rebalanced to the mobs so a single schooled character can defeat the mobs of a similar level in the game. Now not all classes should be able to defeat all mobs, but the class has to remain fun and diverse.

Multiclassing is something that seems completely neglected in the current school version. Abilities that are school defining need to be not masterable. Natures path, spirit bolt, dispirt foes, foresight, and even things like dodge and parry should be not masterable. Has anyone noticed that every single mob has parry and dodge to compensate for every player having it? These abilities need to be special again.

School functions are in desperate need as well. Our world has enemies and schools that are all fought identical ways. A scout is just a nerfed melee school, they don't have anything really special except a 3 second head start on an enemy. A monk is just useless with leather armour, low attack power and abilities that are generically toned down for high hitting warriors. Scout and monk are two heavily limited classes that do not gain a real advantage for their expertise. There is also the other side, the overpowered generic schools, like a heavily multiclassed knoc, or battlemage that just lay down mage like damage with no limits. These classes have lost their uniqueness, in the end they are bombing tanks.

The mobs of the name need to be taken down, reevaluated to the single classed schools and put in the game. The TG method of just raising hp, damage, armour to resist multiclassers is pathetic. The constantly nerfing has thrown the game balance so far out it doesn't even exist anymore. The mobs need to be put back in the game and redistrubited like the crimson scourge are, with varying classes and jobs fighting intelligently to eliminate the gifted. Multiclassed mobs need to be put in the game, like the strength of the current WA mobs, with suitable exp boosts and loot gains.

In the end, I think this will solve the problems with biped multiclassing. As for dragons, all I can say right now for a single schooled class they are very strong, and seem to be getting stronger as TG caves in to every whiny demand. The only way to fix a dragon end game is with ancient, and we don't know whats happening there, so no reason to complain yet.

I think Hal`cyon's exp idea is a good ideal way to go about some changes, but will just ultimately stress the server more than solving the real base of the problem. Exp adjustments are not going to solve broken classes.

Some examples of major problems...
Spiritist - Main weapon is available to everyone, with almost all others available to half the classes. High level mobs hit hard and cloth and have high spirit resistances now. The class is very powerful multiclasses but very very weak singly. I'd suggest making a lesser spirit bolt or something for other classes, much like bloodbolt works for a bloodmage.

All archer classes - have no real purpose as an archer for the most part. They do low damage and can pull only moderately better than a teched spell. Crossbowmen don't do the damage they need to with such low AU, rangers per shot damage is in single damage against t5 WA mobs. They all need a function and damage adjustments.

I had to break this glorious post just to mention that some archer classes are not so bad. The mob rangers can permastun you from a long ways off... and if they had AI they would be super hard to beat if you fail to close the distance between.

Monks have all their abilities copied from generic warrior abilities and the like. The high level abilities generally aren't powerful or don't work, they suffer from low dps, and then get damage reduced again on specials like melee flurry, and reuse the same low multipliers that all melee classes do for critical stirkes, etc.

Both monks and archers gain the dodge ability naturally and need to make use of this defensively (along with evasion). Both of those have been hosed to combat the multiclassing problem.

Most prestige classes gain such a low amount of their magically skills they have little choice but to multiclass to increase those skills. As a ranger, the chance I will hit any level 100 mob with 7/level is pretty non-existant. The same goes for many many classes. I don't want to take druid to level 100, but am finding myself having to just to hit anything, or do damage with my spells.

Thats the end of my rant for now on how screwed up some aspects of the combat system are. I can't see how anything but a complete rebalance will fix these problems. And if a rebalance is done, and done by the same people that have led us to this system, then it won't help. The nerfing and quick fixes to stop things have to change, the whole picture has to be considered

best post ever on the situation of multiclassing.

[imported_tjl]

because some people chose to to stay singleclass in a primarily multiclassing game?

could you prove that statement please?