Update on Blight today

[Theolaerynn]

Experience bonuses or penalties for rating offset between the player and monster now use the highest rated member of the group instead of each group member's rating, to a maximum of 120. This means, among other things, if the highest rated member of the group gets no experience for a monster, nobody in the group will.

This is not going to change or fix any problems, this is only going to penalize the casual players that are mostly just hanging out with friends. In fact, this kind of thing is one of the very reasons my wife and I quit EQ2.

My wife and I are both level 100, and all the folks we play with will not be affected. However, we do like to help new folks, and it is quite reasonable to assume that sometime in the future some old friends may join us here. If we cannot team and hang out then that reduces the attraction to the game. And if it weren't for the people that I hang out with then I could be playing any number of single player games, and save the monthly fee.

The part that really makes me grit my teeth is that this change fixes nothing, and is somewhat typical of AE. It is a 'fix' with the best intentions, but without the propper understanding. This will not stop the powerleveling, and this will not stop uber-peds, and frankly I don't think it will slow either of those down. Or have I missed the point, and this is to fix some other thing?

I am not saying AE sucks, on the contrary, I have a lot of respect for their dedication and for all the hard work. Horizons has a lot going for it, and I love the game. I do think that the folks making decisions like this have missed the boat somewhere, though, just like they did when they let multi-classing get so out of hand. And yet, that multi-classing thing has kept a lot of folks here, playing and having a good time. So how bad can it be?

If you see a problem then by all means fix it. Just please make sure the fix does what you intend, and that the net effect is not a reduction in fun. Less fun always translates to fewer players somewhere along the way.

And then you must ask the question, of all the things out there, what made this fix so important? Why were the resources not spent on other things? Again, not an attack but actual questions. As a player I do not see what problem this solves, but I do see a lot of other unsolved problems out there.

[refuse]

I agree.


Devil's Advocate:

I think if they think PLing is an issue, that they do the same for quests. I.e. if a quest is completed with 3 players, it should take 3x the effort, or involve danger for those participating. So instead of Dragon groups doing Mhendon, they would have to kill it 2, 3 or more times. Any less is "power questing" and each and every one of them getting the credit for it, is bypassing the "intent" of the quest.

Since power leveling creates Elnoobs, and uber peds, I think the ability to create Insta-Adults and insta-ancients needs to be stopped. How many 30 level adults do there have to be to realize they are just "power quested" through?

[/Devli's Advocate]

[bandishier]

getting leveled by a character that you have no chance in taking on yourself is a powerlevel.

I agree to a degree with your point, but seeing a level 15 character that just camps on the bank in the background while a level 80+ takes on creatures is not right, not even close....this is the area that needs to be prevented.

I, personally, agree with what they are doing

[refuse]

getting leveled by a character that you have no chance in taking on yourself is a powerlevel.

I agree to a degree with your point, but seeing a level 15 character that just camps on the bank in the background while a level 80+ takes on creatures is not right, not even close....this is the area that needs to be prevented.

I, personally, agree with what they are doing

What about when the 15th level dragon does it for their quest, or their RoP?

[imported_Twelvebagger]

As long as you are killing things that are at your rating, you will still get XP, and so will those low levels hunting with you.

Before this, many people with ratings of say 150 would round up 50 or 60 lvl 70 mobs (which were no danger to them) and mass kill the mobs to PowerLevel their low lvl friends. This will no longer be possible.

This is also how I interpret this change and I don't see it as a problem. It will not prevent powerleveling by any means, it will just mandate that the powerleveler takes some amount of risk.

[Aamer Khan]

However, the solution to casual players being affected, is just don't group.

If your High level and want to help lowerlevels, just go out and assist them but don't group with them.

Yes, you don't see their help bars and it will be a bit more of a challenge, but your trying to hang out with them and just assist right? Your not trying to powerlevel a leech right?

[LaughingOtter]

RoP is a total of what, four or five individual creatures? That's not something you do for the XP. This is about leeching, not guild hunts, quests, or RoP.

[refuse]

RoP is a total of what, four or five individual creatures? That's not something you do for the XP. This is about leeching, not guild hunts, quests, or RoP.

Actually it is about "slowing" down advancement?
No?
Or requiring the lower levels to be limited by the persons helping them.

In both cases, advancement to adult/ancient, and limiting by the person helping them, the poitn applies.

RoP is done by "bystanders", not participating (how many 30 level dragons can survive to get to Kaa? Sure it can be done with Lem (did it, 2 hits to lem before you die), but the rest at level 30 are bystanders.

So leeching XP is the only thing we are fixing?

[Guaran]

My wife and I are both level 100, and all the folks we play with will not be affected. However, we do like to help new folks, and it is quite reasonable to assume that sometime in the future some old friends may join us here. If we cannot team and hang out then that reduces the attraction to the game.

There's nothing stopping anyone from grouping with anyone else.

If by "Helping" other players that means taking a level 5 newb to New Rachival and rounding up 70 Desert Wolves, and then bombing them all at once for free exp... Then yes, the lvl 5 player you are trying to "help" might be affected. They might not get any exp. For doing nothing. but leeching.

This change is a good idea but actually going to only have minor impact. The rating 160+ players aren't going to be power leveling anyone is all. Rating below that are likely to still have some ability to generate lots of easy exp for other group members.

Realistically. the experiencewhen a mob is killed should be divvied up solely based on the amount of damage you did. For healers, the amount of heals could count in the same way as the amount of damage done. Healers should get exp based on healing ability anyway, not kills.

If they did this, there would not be any restriction on grouping, nor any lessening of the soloists ability to level other schools of his own, but a level 5 player in a group at say the flies, can't damage the mobs there gets no exp. This is as it should be. Perhaps a small amount for trying, that is actually running up to the said flies and attacking. If they never attack and never throw a heal, then no exp.

If you ask me this change does too little.

[imported_Twelvebagger]

Edit: Post isn't showing up in full :(



A 160 rating will still be able to effectilve powerlevel (if they choose to) at anything about 80+, which would include elnath.

Regarding the damage/heals = exp, I agree in that an ideal exp system would be based on action. To that end it's a good suggestion but too hard to implement and too easy to exploit. (Tank takes damage, healer chain heals, rinse-repeat).

[refuse]

[quote user="Theolaerynn]
This change is a good idea but actually going to only have minor impact. The rating 160+ players aren't going to be power leveling anyone is all.

i.e read, not grouping with anyone when they fight.

Realistically. the experiencewhen a mob is killed should be divvied up solely based on the amount of damage you did. For healers, the amount of heals could count in the same way as the amount of damage done. Healers should get exp based on healing ability anyway, not kills.

Of course mobs that do low damage, or tanks that get luckly implies the healers do nothing.
Also what if you tank, and heal and tank and heal (all the while not doing damage to the mob so you can just heal for heal XP?)

Same as is said above actually.

[Kulamata]

I agree with Theolaerynn. Completely, except that I ground my teeth instead.

I simply don't believe that PL'ing is dominating the game; certainly not on Order. It is visible, and it's easy to condemn, but I see nothing that harms me. The PL'ers won't play long, but while they do, they help keep the game afloat. We need that money. If a PL'er doesn't know what they should from sheer lack of practice, it's not MY skill that's affected. And to think that such can be confused with a Helcat, or Chioxin, or Kark, or Dorrin, or, or, or, is, shall we say? notbloody likely! So the PL'ers do me no harm, andthey do me some good. And I simply don't see that many of them anyway.

When our guild had 20-40 players on simultaneously, it was easy to have hunting groups that pretty well had all members in the same tier, and that was best for fun and leveling.

Nowadays, a group of six or seven is a good sized party; two of them are crafters who have crawled sloooowwwly to their adv. mid-levels,two are low levels who recently joined the guild, and two are ratings >100 who have been playing since day 1 or longer. If the group were to go after mobs in the 80-120 level, the younglings can't hit anything, which is no fun for them, the mids usually can't hit, and the seniors get some useless xp, and the loot such as forms and techs is not usable by the lower and mid players. So for fun, we go to mid levels. Bores the top two, but the rest have more fun. The top two heal, try to get the group to stay together, and more or less refrain from killing the mobs too quickly. This is the most fun for the most people for us in today's environment. And nobody gets rich off the xp as it now stands, but there is some for the mid and lower levels.

So to "fix" a low harm situation, we are presented with a simplistic, "one swing of the meat axe fixes all" remedy. I had so hoped that Tulga was not going to do this sort of thing. It strongly reminds me of the the caster fixes that hit several schools unintentionally, the hoard leak, the marrow ethereal armor, the silver/tech drop nerfs, and the 25 skill/tech tier level. Newcomers won't know what I'm talking about, because every one of these was rolled back substantially or completely.

Based on that track record, I'd suggest that the current path of improving the game by debugging and expanding is muchsafer.

The current system of group exp was worked out with players, and the goal was to maximize the social aspects of the game. In my opinion, it worked brilliantly. If Horizons is anything, it is a social game; for me, that is what "The game for the rest of us" means. So PLEASE no hasty fixes to solve a minor problem at great cost to the core ethos of the game.

[imported_Twelvebagger]

The current system of group exp was worked out with players, and the goal was to maximize the social aspects of the game. In my opinion, it worked brilliantly. If Horizons is anything, it is a social game; for me, that is what "The game for the rest of us" means. So PLEASE no hasty fixes to solve a minor problem at great cost to the core ethos of the game.

Excellent point, hopefully they will test this at length on blight and re-evaluate if necessary.

[Tryagain]

PLing is not a problem. rampant PLing is.

I am a crafter in THIS GAME. My first 100 and only 100 was basically PL'ed from level 45 to 100. Why ? I wanted to be able to survive an encounter with a t5 mob aka Mithril golem.

So I get my first 100.... takes my cleric 5 mins to kill one... what fun. Ok So I need more damage. Time to take warrior. I had already the first 22 levels myself. Got him to 59 on Pling. Last Sunday I decide to gain some solo exp... hmm where to go my rating is 78. So I go to dralk thinking at first I will kill 60 to 64 mobs for the trophies believing that by doing this I should get enough exp to level to 60 and some trophies to boot. Boy was I wrong.. I can't kill even level 60 mobs in great numbers or quickly enough and was getting 1 trophy per 50 kills BORING !!!!! So I then decide to go take out fire wolfs and Obsidian golems which are closer to my rating level hoping for more exp. Well I got more exp... but it was boring it really was. In 4 hours I got a total of 32 percent exp into 59. Is that normal ? seems long and tedious in a game where I have to get 100 levels to max out. I mean and I said this in another thread solo hunting in HZ is about as entertaining as watching a turtle run a marathon. I mean ok then I should group with people my level right ? umm well there seems to be no such thing as a pickup group in HZ. So then I am left with guildhunts which almost always entails the help of a high rating player. Heck I went to elnath once and died 5 times LOL everyone did it was great fun and great exp and the risk was definitely still there. So now I can't group like this anymore and have that fun again can I ? I have to rely on people in group at same level hoping to outdamage a high rated player outside the group trying to do enough damage where we still get exp ? With the lag in these situations impossible will not happen. So then I guess I will have to go with these people to tier 6 mobs where I cannot even hurt the mobs and they once again just mop up to top that I get less exp than before. I suppose if the level appropriate pickup group was a possibility this change wouldn't even cause me to blink... but pickup groups don't happen and can you imagine running around Char area trying to fight through the spawn system ? if you were lucky enough to get a pickup group that is.

I guess what I am trying to say is that unrestricted grouping is fun... its the only way adventuring in HZ is any fun. I say this with the experience that I have been a hard core adventure type in many games and never have I found a soloing experience to be as dull as HZ. Not trying to slam HZ but its the truth and its how a lot of people feel. So then people group cause well its fun. I can be powerleveled and still fully understand how to play my character. But more importantly make adventuring fun. It just lacks spice its simply no fun.

Yes I do admit going afk while being powerleveled kind of sucks,. You really aren't playing the game. But this is a symptom of no content and you can't nerf this out without addressing the fact that there doesn't seem much to do in Horizons. No purpose no cause no nothing. I would rather these aspects be addressed first so that changes like these are not viewed so badly.

[Guaran]

Yea I am sure there would need to be some tweaks as to how that suggestion got implemented.

Say the mob once killed has 10,000 exp to be divided up. That would be the total exp possible, and the dividing among the dmg dealers and healers when totaled wouldn't exceed that. Otherwise someone could exploit the system with someone just standing there taking damage for an hourand someone healing for an hour.

But the low dmg mobs, I think I understand where you are coming from. The existing system of rating would apply once the first calculation is done. sayplayer A did 89% the dmg/healing (89% the work), player B did 11% (as healing for example). now the divided upexp gets sent thru the normal/existing rating system for determining the amount actually granted on a per-player basis.

Sorta hard to put into words but thats general overview.

*edit to answer all those responses in between that already popped up*

Kulamata: I doubt this will be a big AXE swing like you are suggesting. It's actually going to be a minor change. I remember all the other changes likemarrows being damaged by satyr talismans/scales ( then AE fixed it ). etc. All those past changes, these new balancing changes. They are not going to hurt the game. What does --->

Grimlik: You got the problem pointed out in that there's nothing else to do. THAT is what has hurt the game the most. If there was plenty of fun things to do and keep people entertained, the game would be doing alot better. And if there was alot of various things to be doing, these changes might cause some grumbling, but nothing major because people are too busy having fun.

And yes the basis for my first idea that exp given is based on the dmg/healing contributed, is born from seeing all the AFK leechers. Really it just makes no sense for them to get exp. The current system is obviously flawed in several ways. I don't envy Tulga's position in the matter, in trying to fix it. My idea could be something they decide would be a good thing to implement, but wait to do so until the "fun" factor becomes more prominent. People are playing, having fun, getting thier RL friends into the game. Then some of these other adjustments can be considered. Of course, now, they just have a larger player base to piss off... theres no easy way to do it. So just do it and be done with it. Perhaps if players had to start actually earning their exp (I'm only speaking of low level leechers), they might *gasp* find each other and group up, and go killing arbotus out of Dikaina or something.

A players adventuring from level 1 up, shouldn't solely consist of Elnath. Giving them a reason to hunt elsewhere, they might actually do it. If someone has played their whole ADV life out at the PL hot spots, they have cheated themselves out of the rest of the games' lands and monsters. Go exploring!

Everyone freaks and thinks changes like this are going to be game- breaking.How can they break it when it's obviously already broken? Just change it already(Tulga), then spend your time developing FUN content and things to do.

[Theolaerynn]

What about the support classes? How do you measure the contributions of debuffers, dispellers, and the like?

[Guaran]

What about the support classes? How do you measure the contributions of debuffers, dispellers, and the like?

That can all fall under the same basic idea as the healer.

But realistically. WHO plays a character that does nothing but debuff the mobs? The healer is basically included in the idea that the amount of healing done counts towards that classes' exp earned. Doesn't that make sense? The other classes should be treated the same. I.E. a Shaman using blight abilities and successfully landing debuffs... thats what his class does. so that should be where his exp comes from since thats the class he is training/playing as. If he has already leveled healer to lvl 100 but is not playing that class, then when he heals himself or a group member, why should his Shaman class get exp???? The complete fix would be a healer gets exp for healing ( or doing the small bits of damage they can sometimes do [:)] ) , a spiritist gets exp for the dmg they do thats ethereal/spirit based... etc.

I'm just throwing out some ideas... keep some feedback coming.

[Goriax]

I like this fix. I've seen level 20ish types group with level 100 types just to leach experience. They can go up pretty fast for no skill or effort on their part. It's just a cheap PL exploit and I'm glad it was plugged. No this doesn't fix all problems. It won't fix other PL exploits, it won't fix any class imbalances, and it won't bring peace and understanding to the real world.

But it's a step in the right direction.

If you really just want to SOCIALIZE with high level people, you don't need to group together. Just run together and use a chat channel to talk. Of course if you do that the lower level people are going to have to EARN their experience and do their own kills.

The only people I see getting hurt by this are exploiting powerlevelers. Now they have to earn their levels like everyone else.

All exploits need to be plugged. And while I'm sure there are still many exploits, I'm glad to see one plugged.

And maybe I'll stop getting pestered by people a fifth my level who want to group.

[refuse]

A players adventuring from level 1 up, shouldn't solely consist of Elnath. Giving them a reason to hunt elsewhere, they might actually do it. If someone has played their whole ADV life out at the PL hot spots, they have cheated themselves out of the rest of the games' lands and monsters. Go exploring!

What if they don't find that fun.
And they find PLing, and mass spawning fun?
How do they cheat themselves?
Do we mandate what is fun?
Do we mandate what people have to do?

Everyone freaks and thinks changes like this are going to be game- breaking.How can they break it when it's obviously already broken? Just change it already(Tulga), then spend your time developing FUN content and things to do.

Adding more grind, more delays, less community, less options, and less abilities is not "good" changes.

There is no good in this. Only a bunch of "PLing" is ruining the game. How?
Like I said, I have a 72 level dragon, and an 80 level blood mage, 7 months in game. So the effect on me is minimal. But how does PLing ruin the game? Because they don't "explore" or do the things that others find fun?

[refuse]

I like this fix. I've seen level 20ish types group with level 100 types just to leach experience. They can go up pretty fast for no skill or effort on their part. It's just a cheap PL exploit and I'm glad it was plugged. No this doesn't fix all problems. It won't fix other PL exploits, it won't fix any class imbalances, and it won't bring peace and understanding to the real world.

But it's a step in the right direction.

If you really just want to SOCIALIZE with high level people, you don't need to group together. Just run together and use a chat channel to talk. Of course if you do that the lower level people are going to have to EARN their experience and do their own kills.

The only people I see getting hurt by this are exploiting powerlevelers. Now they have to earn their levels like everyone else.

All exploits need to be plugged. And while I'm sure there are still many exploits, I'm glad to see one plugged.

And maybe I'll stop getting pestered by people a fifth my level who want to group.

So the problem with this PLing is? They bother you?

PLing is ruining the game (more then the lack of content? The missing events? The missing forms? The unbalanced classes?) How does the grouping and XP distribution effect anyone but the people doing it? How does this in any way help the game, except to make the people with 100s feel like the can be at the top a bit longer (luckly they never used Trophies that they bought, or grouped with a higher person taking on a mob they couldn't handle themselves)? How does this change add anything to the game, without removing something else?