Is it time for the Vielo to leave?

[Kwinn]

Is it time for the Vielo to leave? I submit that it is indeed time for them to leave, hopefully never to return. If not all of them, then certainly those that offer goods readily available from other players. Forms and tech components come to mind. If there are forms or comps that can not be gotten thru any other source than the Vielo, then kepp one or two and give them a listingof goods not yet available via the drop or any other source.

My reasoning behind this is simple. We have no economy, or more correctly what economy there is seems to be centered around pawnbrokers and the Vielo. Someone needs some comps... simple, craft a bunch of tools or whatever, pawn them, go visit Nadia. I think this money should return to the players, not get taken out of circulation by going to the Vielo.

This might actually give adventurers a reason to hunt other than to level the next class to 100. It would, I believe, put the high level players on the spot to help out the lower level(read NEW here) players. This is important, IMO, we need new blood in the game. Do we leave the new players to their own devices or do we help them out? It may require us to craft at a lower level, hunting low tier mobs but the interaction between vets and rookies would be enhanced.

Crafters would again see their services be needed and of some worth. As it stands now, most guilds have a set of crafters capable of craftoing most or all of what is needed. Interation outside of the guild is somewhat limited due to ease of acquiring components. Those craft schools with limited membership would be in demand as always, yet due to reduction in availability of comps and to a lesser extent formulae, crafters would again be highly sought after and again be able to charge reasonable prices for their services. This is not to say crafters are not sought after now, indeed, they are probably busier than they might wish to be. Constant stream of orders for teched this and teched that. Why? Because the Vielo have an endless supply of whatever is needed. Take that supply away, and you will see crafter services become something of value. Why? Again, its painfully simple, availability. Availability of not only the components and formulae but the crafter as well. People want their gear made as soon as they get the necessary ingredients. The ease at which this is accomplished now makes it unlikely anyone is going to be paying much for the craft. "I can wait till so and soo is on" Now, imagine the Vielo are gone, the customer had to wait several days or maybe even a couple of weeks to get those 10 blue vexator fringes. He finally has them and he wants that particualr item bad! "I am not going to wait for so and so to log on, the first crafter I see that can make this thing for me is getting my business. And I don't care what he charges, I want my new toy" Think I'm wrong? Don't you bet on it. That is human nature.

Now I know the argument is going to be that certain comps will become scarse and very expensive. Remember arbotus gullets pre-merge? The same would happen with vexator fringes, abomination chest skulls, zombie ogre toes. However, back pre-merge the numbers of players able to hunt arbotus or willing to was limited. There are several players now capable of hunting anything that moves. Demand will cause the price to be high initially, supply would hopefully lower it, competition would lower it further.

I think it behooves us as players to do our bit to revive our economy. As it stands now, the Vielo make it too easy to get whatever our hearts desire. All that is needed is a crafter and the coin. The coin can had from the pawnbrokers, the crafting, at worst, can be done by the player's themselves. Removal or severe reduction of Vielo and their goods would move the economy back to the player base. Of course, I realize that if the Vielo are removed, life may be rough for a period of time until we adjust to having to get things on our own. It will promote interaction across the entire spectrum of the player base, and that has to be a good thing. Hopefully, we will see growth in the player base someday to make the loss of the Vielo more palatable.

So please, let's get rid of the Vielo and take back our economy


Kwinn

[Joaqim]

Kwinn,

just one question, have you ever tried to hunt down your own, "ugly" tech comps like Blue/Red Vexator Fringes orKwellen Energy Nodes in reasonable amount?

[Nalrach]

Kwinn;

Your rigth the economy is off to the pits. But I suggest you look at other places for finding it's fault:

- Lack of players (and with DDO comming out, this will be worst)
- Ratio of drop for the comps (hunting 4 hours and still no comps)
- Some mobs impossible to findor get to
- Lost of mobs cannot be handle singularly unless you are 4x 100 levels
(level too high, or cannot isolate a single target, or too many mobs before
you get there).

No, the vielo currently have a place for comps or hard to find forms, anyway their cost been so high nothing stops you from stacking a connie with a price still high but lower then the vielo.

You may suggest that Tulga place a consigner near the Vielo to allow for purchase of player comps first. Or like many suggested, let see all the items that is available trough all the connies. But going around and visiting every possible connies (if they not restricted) to see if a product is available, is not a good way to pass the evening in a game.

By removing the vielo you will only accomplish to make item rare to get , inflate it's price for nothing, and add un-necessary delay in people getting their items made.

[Helcat]

I concur with Kwinn.


"on-demand" availability of tech comps has not only affected the economy (what little remains) but it's taken away much of the interaction between players.

Get rid of Nadia.

Get rid of, or severely limit Pawn Brokers.

Let players adventure and craft with purposeagain.

Things have gotten rather lazy...



* "I Concur" is TM & Copyright 2005, Helcat Worldwide Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.

[Helcat]

Kwinn,

just one question, have you ever tried to hunt down your own, "ugly" tech comps like Blue/Red Vexator Fringes orKwellen Energy Nodes in reasonable amount?

What's wrong with the economy is fairly simple.
Things have gotten to the point where it's quite
feasible for a single player to be entirely (or
nearly-entirely) self-sufficient, eliminating the
need to interact with others. Seems to me this
goes against the very spirit of a MMORPG.

Pawn Brokersoffer unlimited farming of coin, which
in turn is used to buytech components from Nadia.

[Helcat]

I'd like to add, that while I realize Tulga gave us
Nadia so that we had access to tech components
that were not yet in the loot tables, her very
existence now serves to eliminate a portion of
much needed "content."

Why go out and adventure when you can grind
some tools, pawn them, and use the coin to
lazily purchase tech comps from Nadia?

Here we are starving for content, and by virtue of
her very existence, Nadia is eliminating some
of the content we so desperately need.

Get rid of her, or have her ONLY stock tech comps
that are not in the loot tables. Drop-frequency is
more than adequate as is... people have just gotten
so lazy and used to instant gratification (again, due
to Nadia and Pawn Brokers) that they are unwilling
to actually ADVENTURE or INTERACT with others
to obtain what they need. Part of the thrill is
EARNING or WORKING for that fully-tech'd-out
armor/cargo gear/ set of tools.

[Helcat]

Just re-read your post Kwinn.

EVERYTHING you said is DEAD ON.



Thanks for taking the time to post this.
I have been thinking the EXACT same
for some time now. This economy is
utterly broken, and you've hit the nail
on the head as to why.

[Joaqim]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Joaqim wrote: Kwinn,

just one question, have you ever tried to hunt down your own, "ugly" tech comps like Blue/Red Vexator Fringes orKwellen Energy Nodes in reasonable amount?

What's wrong with the economy is fairly simple.
Things have gotten to the point where it's quite
feasible for a single player to be entirely (or
nearly-entirely) self-sufficient, eliminating the
need to interact with others. Seems to me this
goes against the very spirit of a MMORPG.

Pawn Brokersoffer unlimited farming of coin, which
in turn is used to buytech components from Nadia.

Sohow's about ananswer to my question?

Yop, ingmae economy is quite down atm, out of several reasons, but that wasn't my question.
But even with Vielo, if you like to make money out of your hunts, there is not much problem to make maybe 10s each Mithril Golem frag atm. Vexator Fringes without Vielo? As long as the drop rates and spawn doesn't change, I don't see myself ever putting one on market and would expect prices of 100-200s each..... that stuff is really nothing which can be compared with the old Arbotus Gullets (as in the initial post), yes I've known the hunting area well.

[Helcat]

you want me to answer it? It was directed to Kwinn,
but sure... I can answer it.. SIMPLE.

YES.

Kwinn is able, with absolute ease, to hunt EVERY
single tech comp that exists in the loot tables...

as are nearly every player who has been here for
more than a few months.

The drop rates are FINE.

Why do we need averything handed to us?

The entire reason we have a broken economy is
that Tulga, while meaning well, listened to the
vocal minority and took steps to make this game
a shallow, Care Bear version of what it started out as.
Expert Forms & Techs now drop at such an alarming
rate, they aren't even put up for sale... people pawn
them like we used to pawn "junk bonus resources."

Why have an adventure game if everything you could
possible want exists on an NPC... if someone is that
averse to interacting with others or actually ADVENTURING
to obtain the rare (well, USED to be rare) items they want,
then maybe a Multi-player game is not for them.

[Helcat]

But even with Vielo, if you like to make money out of your hunts, there is not much problem to make maybe 10s each Mithril Golem frag atm.

This has ZERO to do with wanting to make more money
through adventuring.

It haseverything to do with wanting to instill some of
the spirit of adventuring & interacting with others that
this game has lost in recent months...

Kwinn and many others already have more gold than they
will ever use. What Kwinn is asking for is a return of
PURPOSE. Having everything available on-demand from
an NPC eliminates this purpose, cheats us out of much
needed content, and destroys crafter-adventurer interaction.

[Helcat]

Joaqim --

Let's compare how this works now,
to how it should work.


You decide you want a completely tricked-out
set of new armor, only todiscover there are
a bunch of tech comps you yourself cannot
hunt down at this stage in your character
growth. Rather than interact with others to
obtain what you need, you pawn a few loads
of crafted tools, and buy everything off Nadia.
Instant Gratification.

Now, remove Nadia from the equation.

You make your list of tech comps. Some of them
you realize you can hunt for yourself... so you
go adventure. You have now have a purpose!

But wait! There are a bunch of comps that drop
from very difficult MOBs that you aren't quite
ready to take on. So you ask Helcat if he can hunt
them down for you, in exchange for a reasonable fee.
Now I HAVE PURPOSE!

Whydestroy player interaction, and eliminate a
reason to actually adventure (read -- "content")
all for the sake of instant gratification?

[Pharcellus]

Dunno, I have been looking for comps from adventurers for the last week now, as have others. I even contacted Kwinn directly, looking for comps. He had none that I needed, and was "busy" doing something else at that time.

I went and hunted for a while, but got tired of dying from invisible mobs, my hotkey buttons sticking/graying out and not returning for several minutes, supposedly wonderful drop rates, getting one comp PER HOUR from Zombie Ogres, Red Vexators, et cetera.

I like to hunt for purpose, not farming mobs for their parts. Apparently, so does Kwinn. Apparently, so do a lot of adventurers. They are usually too busy levelling up their next class to bother going and hunting for comps. The day I can contact an adventurer and find that he has comps in-stock, or is willing to go out and hunt some for me, for a reasonable fee, I will agree that there is no need for Nadia.

As a result, I dropped nearly a gold on Nadia because I wanted to get on with things I actually CARE about doing, especially since I can grind a few hours worth of crafting and sell to the pawn broker and make up the cash loss.

Lastly, the economy is far more broken than just adventurers and Nadia. There's not really any financial incentive AT ALL in crafting.

[imported_Stromgard]

I agree with the sentiment that Kwinn has expressed. Unfortunately, the economy is definitely broken and this is just one of the elements that has contributed to it. I don't mind an individual who is willing to take the effortand time to grind their way to self sustenance.The concern I have is for the player who specializes in one or two trades because they enjoyed it, not because they wantedto becomea crafting god. These players usuallylike making items to sell and gain the levels as they come restocking their wares.What we have here is someone faced with really no market for their goods not only because of the lack of population but also because once somebody buys an item they are no longer in need until they get to the next tier. A notable exception to that, and a model perhaps to look at, would be alchemy. Potions move very well because they don't last forever. Quaf one and you aren't covered until the next tier. With no item decay or wear, equipment is a low volume seller at best and you have a person who needs to make hundreds to gain the next level. Really out of whack here.

So what happens. People knowing that there is relatively no market for goods don't even bother placing on connies, they dump on PB's. Forget going to the trouble of making the item tech'd out because there is a decent chance it ends up in your vault after a week.Then guys like me can't find what we're looking for and decide I guess I better take up weaponsmith if I'm going to get that lv 95 sword. Eventually you have everyone in the frame of mind they have to fend for themselves, can't count on anything being anywhere and becoming a hassle not worth dealing with or just plain frustration. So as much as I would love to see the one stop shopping go away and get back to a true player economy, there are other issues needing to be addressed before doing thisor I'm afraid more harm than good would be accomplished.

[Kwinn]

Kwinn,

just one question, have you ever tried to hunt down your own, "ugly" tech comps like Blue/Red Vexator Fringes orKwellen Energy Nodes in reasonable amount?

Yes, I have hunted all of them. Are they easy? No Do they drop well? No

Now, my turn for a question Do you want instant gratification or do you want to have to struggle a bit to get what you want?

For myself, I don't mind the struggle. It makes the achievement of a goal, any goal, sweeter. Instant gratification, IMO, cheapens everything


Kwinn

[imported_Zayin]

Nobody in their right mind would buy comps from nadia if they were available elsewhere for cheaper.Problem is no one sales these rare comps on MP I see people ask all day long only to be met with silence. You could put Blue Vex Fringes on connie for any reasonable price and i bet they would be bought within a hour.Only thing Nadia does is cap the price of comps. I dont see how she in any way hurts the market cause quite cleary there is not near enough supply to meet the players demand.

[Kwinn]

Dunno, I have been looking for comps from adventurers for the last week now, as have others. I even contacted Kwinn directly, looking for comps. He had none that I needed, and was "busy" doing something else at that time.

I went and hunted for a while, but got tired of dying from invisible mobs, my hotkey buttons sticking/graying out and not returning for several minutes, supposedly wonderful drop rates, getting one comp PER HOUR from Zombie Ogres, Red Vexators, et cetera.

I like to hunt for purpose, not farming mobs for their parts. Apparently, so does Kwinn. Apparently, so do a lot of adventurers. They are usually too busy levelling up their next class to bother going and hunting for comps. The day I can contact an adventurer and find that he has comps in-stock, or is willing to go out and hunt some for me, for a reasonable fee, I will agree that there is no need for Nadia.

As a result, I dropped nearly a gold on Nadia because I wanted to get on with things I actually CARE about doing, especially since I can grind a few hours worth of crafting and sell to the pawn broker and make up the cash loss.

Lastly, the economy is far more broken than just adventurers and Nadia. There's not really any financial incentive AT ALL in crafting.

For the record, MY BAD. I got caught up in the bored to death so will level grind thing. I humbly apologize Pharcellus. Next time ya need comps, gimme a shout. I will do what I can to fill yer list :)

Kwinn

[Helcat]

Dunno, I have been looking for comps from adventurers for the last week now, as have others. I even contacted Kwinn directly, looking for comps. He had none that I needed, and was "busy" doing something else at that time.

In that same vein Maltavorn, I'm sure you will agree
that just as often, in fact more often, an adventurer
will ask for days in MarketPlace for items to be crafted,
only to be met with silence...

I'm sure you will also agree that a solution consisting of
an NPC who sells fully-tech'd items for a high fee is not
a good idea... afterall, that would remove all purpose for
crafters, wouldn't it? Adventurers could then farm MOBs,
make unlimited Pawn runs, and with their exhorbitant
riches, simply bypass crafters and pay the NPC.

How many would scream if such a scenario existed?

And yet, that scenario exists now, only it is adventurers
who are being robbed of their purpose.

[Helcat]

Nobody in their right mind would buy comps from nadia if they were available elsewhere for cheaper.Problem is no one sales these rare comps on MP I see people ask all day long only to be met with silence. You could put Blue Vex Fringes on connie for any reasonable price and i bet they would be bought within a hour.Only thing Nadia does is cap the price of comps. I dont see how she in any way hurts the market cause quite cleary there is not near enough supply to meet the players demand.

Want to know EXACTLY why you can't find T5 comps for
sale on consigners or in MarketPlace?

Because Adventurers can simply go to Nadia and buy all
they need... so why hunt for them? And if we aren't hunting
for our own comps, well... then we aren't out accumulating
extras to sell! Remove Nadia, and I'll be forced to actually
ADVENTURE for my own comps... which means while I'm
out slaying baddies, I can collect a handful of extras to
sell to you.

Reality Check people:

Unlimited Pawn Broker farming has injected too much
gold into circulation, and created lazy crafters, just as
Nadia has created a society of lazy adventurers.
Pawn Brokers are the equivalent of Crafter Welfare.
Why actually work when I can get a quicker buck from
the Pawnie? And why actually adventure when Nadia
the Welfare Case Worker will hand me on a silver platter
everything I'm too ******** lazy to go earn?

[Helcat]

(bah.. double post)

[Pharcellus]

Well, surprise! I don't agree, at least on the first part.

Mainly because I tend to fill those requests when others don't/won't. I don't always answer on the first try, because I want another crafters to fill the need, especially on lower-tier requests, but I have no qualms filling orders for anything that I can (which is now everyting but Tier 3+ food; that will be a limitation no longer soon enough).

As for an NPC that sells fully-teched items, no. I don't want to see such a thing, mainly because it is unnecessary.

You're not being robbed of your purpose. Go and grind away some time collecting 100+ of each type of Tier V comp and open up "Helcat's Nadia Obviation Store". I mean, if you believe that Nadia is evil and needs to be eliminated, then put your resources where your fangs are and make her redundant.