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Thread: Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

  1. #1

    Default Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

    Just as the title says.

    If you've encountered aggro bugs (swarms, unusually large aggro radius, general odd behavior) post your experiences here. The Devs would like to iron out any problems you come across.

    Please be as specific as possible and include which server you play on, what mob demonstrated the bug, what you were doingand where you were in-gameat the time.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

    Well, I'm not sure if this was a bug or not. In the new grouping agro rules, monsters that are not being directly engaged by someone will go for the easy kills in the group first, right? meaning your low level players.


    Well, Son of Gigaroth. I'm the designated tank, and I can hold aggro pretty ******** well. There were about 6 or 7 of us in the group, and two of them were lower levels (each in the 50s, I think.) I could not get him locked down untill thoes two were dead, despite doing a tail whip and then a full unload on him of every possible ability I had. Any time one of thoes two were resurected, he would bolt for them. Eventualy we left them dead. Is a single mob supposed to be 'untankable' in this manner?
    Lumineux Talar

  3. #3

    Default Re: Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

    Couple of odd behaviors that Ive noticed are the deer in the Sslanis basin move in an unusally large circle. Another odd behavior is the new crawler type spiders. They seem to spawn at an alarming rate. Lower level players could not withstand a group as they like to come by in. Most monsters that Ive encountered on the Order shard also do not follow the new aggro system. Im currently at rating 104 and all monsters, except one level 14 undead, have attacked me.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

    Hopefully someone will edit the patch notes or clarify that the new aggro system based on player rating has not gone live. Amon told this to me in chat on Chaos, and I have confirmed it. With 202 rating I still draw aggro off of the same mobs that are sub 100 rated.

    I don't think this is a bug, I think they just didn't implement it and having it in the notes was an oversight.
    Twelvebagger
    12x100. <-- I did monk!
    Twelvebagger's Mistress (pinkie!)
    Redo the loot tables and bring on the undead hordes! (*Hands Beer to NimK)



  5. #5

    Default Re: Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

    reminds 12 to post his findings to this thread.

    So bump.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tryagain
    reminds 12 to post his findings to this thread.

    So bump.
    Okay, okay, here goes:

    While this may or may not be a bug, I thought I should post my experiences on group combat to see what everyone thinks about the current mechanics after the change recently.

    Here is my experience so far, but it is not 100% consistant:

    1) Damage will no longer redraw aggro. A mob goes after player A, player A does nothing. Player B pummels said mob for 90% of it's life, andthe mobcontinues to pummel Player A. This is a problem because it will now allow circling (draw aggro, run in cirlces while the mages nuke with no danger) even more, and moreover "damage" is a method of aggro management.

    2) The new mob algorithm goes something like this for most mobs (I did see one exception, Elite blighted blights and Veteran tempest blights don't seem to have as extreme break-offs): Mob gets hit by player A:

    a) Check for the lowest rated groupmate in range.
    b) Pursue the lowest rated groupmate.
    c) Kill lowest rated groupmate
    d) Search for the next lowest groupmate.
    etc.

    At both the fire opal spawn, fire island, and the necroflies, the tank would go out and pull, and literally ALL of the mobs would not stick to the tank, they would target (leaving the tank in the middle of the field) the lowest group member.

    At the fire opals, I wanted to test the new experience change, so I requested that a friend of mine show up so that we could see if he still got exp (I am rated 202 and get no experience from fire opal golems). I had pulled about 10 golems and had each of them roughly half dead (at least 1200 damage done to the mobs). At this point in time, my friend was out of range. He showed up as they were half dead, and all of the golems left me and ran after him (luckily he's a smart player, survived in his cargo).

    I would like people to share their experiences as it pertains to group combat, but I would also like people to specify how large of agroup they had.

    I was disgruntled at this initially, because I believe that the extreme nature of this change kills the social aspect of grouping. I am, and will always be, in favor of creating more tactics in combat---but I'm not certain this change is for the best.

    As it stands now, I'm trying to see the intent behind this change. If it were to curb powerleveling I would hope that they would instead revisit experience vs. rating instead of insta-death for lower leveled players.

    Now the argument will come that a low level player has no business hunting with the big dogs, and to a degree this is true, but sometimes people like to tag along just for the sake of having fun and being a part of the group.

    In closing, this change indirectly BENEFITS me, oddly enough, because I can basically go butt-naked in almost any group and I will not draw aggro. Despite this, I can see people not having as much fun now. . .


    There aresome aggro management techniques aside from damage, but sadly, I don't believe they are as effective as they need to be for situations like this.
    -12-
    Twelvebagger
    12x100. <-- I did monk!
    Twelvebagger's Mistress (pinkie!)
    Redo the loot tables and bring on the undead hordes! (*Hands Beer to NimK)



  7. #7

    Default Re: Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Twelvebagger
    1) Damage will no longer redraw aggro. A mob goes after player A, player A does nothing. Player B pummels said mob for 90% of it's life, andthe mobcontinues to pummel Player A. This is a problem because it will now allow circling (draw aggro, run in cirlces while the mages nuke with no danger) even more, and moreover "damage" is a method of aggro management.
    To my mage's glee, I also discovered that this is now the case. I can get aggro away from a puller, but it takes a lot more damaging to do it, and it must be done in a relativley short timespan.

    Also noticed that mobs will go for druids and healers with a passion sometimes, regardless of rating. Still investigating this one, make sure it was not a chance happening.

    Often times I am the lowest rated in my groupings, and it can be a bit dicey at times. Groups without good crowd control or healing power will have a tough time keeping the lowest rated from harm.

    Personally, the changes are in a positive direction. they just need some tweaking so its not too extreme.
    torvos: shadow/chaos shard (on vacation)
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  8. #8
    baldarou
    Guest

    Default Re: Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

    I am very displeased at this situation. The weight value of the mobs AI for looking at rating has been upped above the weight value of all else, including proximity, damage, debuffs, and stuns. This is not right and needs to be changed asap. I can aggro a mob, run to another player not in group and the mob will then gleefully kill or try to kill that player while I then proceed to kill the mob. This is called training a mob onto someone is also known as PVP.

    There is no aggro anymore. If you are the lowest rating player, you will be the tank, nothing to it. A level 50 warrior powerleving a lvl 48 healer and 47 ranger will no longer work. The mob will stick to the level 47 ranger while the hapless warrior kills the mob. The warrior can fight with no armor cause he wont be tanking. That is how it stands right now.



  9. #9

    Default Re: Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

    Quote Originally Posted by baldarou
    I am very displeased at this situation. The weight value of the mobs AI for looking at rating has been upped above the weight value of all else, including proximity, damage, debuffs, and stuns. This is not right and needs to be changed asap. I can aggro a mob, run to another player not in group and the mob will then gleefully kill or try to kill that player while I then proceed to kill the mob. This is called training a mob onto someone is also known as PVP.

    There is no aggro anymore. If you are the lowest rating player, you will be the tank, nothing to it. A level 50 warrior powerleving a lvl 48 healer and 47 ranger will no longer work. The mob will stick to the level 47 ranger while the hapless warrior kills the mob. The warrior can fight with no armor cause he wont be tanking. That is how it stands right now.

    I've only seen one exception to this, and that is where a mob will lose aggro on the lowest rated player when the healer starts chaining.

    Regardless, you are right that the highest rated player can literally fight naked. I went to the t6 blights as a monk, with about 800 armor (low enough that a monk drawing aggro by more than 2 mobs would probably die fast). I never saw aggro, not even close, not even with fusion burn, MC2, phoenix (I was outdamaging the nukers with this, in the particular group I was in).

    As bald mentioned, I have also seen, while soloing, my pulls break off of me and attack a player not in my group.

    This is a bit extreme.

    Twelvebagger
    12x100. <-- I did monk!
    Twelvebagger's Mistress (pinkie!)
    Redo the loot tables and bring on the undead hordes! (*Hands Beer to NimK)



  10. #10
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    Default Re: Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

    As a Healer with my alt, I noticed that, no matter what, the vast majority of pulled mobs go after me first, even with other lower-rating group members.

    As an example, I joined a farming group for a little bit one night on Elnath at the bugs. The tank would run out into the spawn and round up and pull back a train of them. When he got back in range and I could see them, I saw them change targets off of him and head straight for me, even though I was back in the party, had not cast a spell, and the lower-rating people were behind me. They would continue trying to kill me until they were nuked to death, or I fell. Damaging them would rarely get them to switch aggro.

    I realize that it is tactically advantageous to kill Healers and lower-rated players first, but that is an INTELLIGENT consideration. BUGS ARE NOT INTELLIGENT. If anything, their attack patterns should be random, or focused on closest, but eventually take on the one who does the most damage to them.

    As a Healer, I expect some amount of risk from intelligent mobs who know that getting rid of me first means more of a chance for their peers to prevail against our party, but it still means they need to recognize who I am first. If I haven't even cast a healing spell or used a Healer-specific ability, then they should treat me no different than any other member of the party, but once I start to show my true colors, I should be fair game. This AI should be limited to creatures who understand high-level strategy and tactics.

    All in all, I understand the need to make the monsters more and more challenging, but it smacks so bad of other games with horribly bad AI. When it gets to the point where the AI has to cheat to become a challenge, it is time to scrap the whole mess and start over, as I will tire quickly of that nonsense and move on.
    Erus Ex Universitas -- Erus Ex Istaria Guild Home

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  11. #11

    Default Re: Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

    Aggro and hate should be built up over the course of a battle. Targetting the healer before the healer has even cast any spells or GENERATED any hate is a fundamentially flawed system. How are your opponents supposed to know that you are a healer till they see you heal someone ? It certainly does not say over our heads Healer here kill him first. It seems to me that they have simply given the mobs the advantage or priority coding in " Go after any healers first " before they even generate hate or aggro. This simply will not work and is imo a rather lazy way of coding in mob Aggro and hate. Instead a person should generate hate over a period of time. The healer should be forced to consider their healing options wisely with larger heals generating more hate than smaller. The healer should be able to strategically cast a small heal here and there and not draw much if any hate. If the healer casts a larger heal spell or a group heal spell that should generate much more hate. If a mob is in a group and has not generated any hate to the tank or damage dealers and the healer generates aggro through heals than they should switch to the healer. This makes it so group tactics must come into play and aggro management which is HALF the fun of any group battle comes definitely into play. But simply having the mobs targetting either A ) the lowest rated member or B) any healer in the group sorted by option A first... removes the whole aggro and hate equation therefore removes group tactics from the fight therefore removes the fun factor.. introduces an unnescessary frustration factor which means therefore it was a very poor decision from a developer point of view.

    This system seriously needs to be reconsidered and re adjusted. Cause what I have seen here and others I have talked to there does NOT seem to be any method of Mob hate/aggro generation going on. Rather a simple code in which gives the mobs two options to attack as I illustrated above.

    Thats not going to work.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tryagain
    Aggro and hate should be built up over the course of a battle.
    I think because most group battles are over very quickly, like around 30 seconds... a robust hate/aggro over time system is going to be next to impossible to implement, except for named mobs and other mobs high in hit points. The battles just move to quickly.

    I don't think its over the top that mobs inherently know who the healers are. But mobs should not fully attack them until they start healing. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, it's not very consistent. If Tulga is going to continue with this sort of class based aggro, they need to factor in more classes, other than the healing ones.

    I like the idea of groups of creatures choosing targets, and not just blindly following the puller. And I agree with Pharcellus, the dumb ones should not have "smart" tactics like taking out healers. I think they should stick to the puller, until they are damaged by someone else, or spread out evenly across the group memebers, and then go for the one who does the most dmg.
    torvos: shadow/chaos shard (on vacation)
    100 mage/100 wizard/100 sorcerer/100 conjuror
    96 chaos warrior
    100 enchanter & member of the dark council

    Explorer 86%, Socializer 46%,
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

    Quote Originally Posted by tjl
    Personally, the changes are in a positive direction. they just need some tweaking so its not too extreme.
    I really have to agree with this. As of right now, the only viable tactic is to keep your lowest rating alive while everyone who is not part of doing that does as much damage to the mob as possible, since they're almost completely safe until the preferred target is killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by tjl
    [img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Tryagain wrote:Aggro and hate should be built up over the course of a battle.

    I think because most group battles are over very quickly, like around 30 seconds... a robust hate/aggro over time system is going to be next to impossible to implement, except for named mobs and other mobs high in hit points. The battles just move to quickly.
    I don't think a short battle precludes this kind of system. If every time that a character attacks, you add an amount of hate equal to the expected damage done (maybe actual damage for unintelligent mobs) and add some hate for debuffs and healing, then things will quickly sort out which characters are more effective. Again, more intelligent mobs could use any of these that they observe, not just what is done to them for determining hate. Have a mob require a bit more hate in a different target to change targets to minimize ping-ponging, oh, and with intelligent mobs, have dwarven toughness/dryad dazzle be a sure way to loose aggro. No point attacking what you can't hurt.

    However, if the intelligent mobs get too much from better AI, then the effective level of the unintelligent mobs needs to be lowered without affecting their stats/skills/abilities (or the intelligent ones raised), since a decent level of intelligence is a force multiplier. Also, some of the better AI could be considered instinct for the unintelligent mobs, but certainly not most or all.

    I've been crafting mostly when I'm in game lately, so I've only got one experience with the changes in aggro in a group situation. I was trying to help a lvl 40 dragon get her wraith ectoplasm for her RoP (it wasn't a requirement to loot it when I did the RoP, but this dragon insisted that it was now). I don't know any wraiths lower than lvl 60, so this poor dragon was outclassed in any fight we got into, and there was no way I could maintain aggro if the dragon was alive, even when she was well away from combat. Even pulling with multicast Dark Cyclone wouldn't affect the aggro. It was just the two of us, and I didn't have the healing power to keep her alive when a wraith group decended on her, and even if I did, that would mean that I wasn't doing any damage.

    And I should also point out that I never died while the mobs were chasing/killing the dragon, because the mobs were already weakened by the time they got to me. I'm not so uber that I can always take out a wraith group if they were to focus on me instead. My only DPs of the day came from battles where she was dead at the start of it, or well out of range.

    We finally left her dead, and I rezzed her when I killed a wraith that had ectoplasm on its corpse. Oh, yay, such a fun experience.[^o)]

  14. #14

    Default Re: Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

    yes quick battles I suppose would not adhere to hate generation. Any group I have ever been in has been a wide range of ratings. In fact I do not believe I have ever been in a similar leveled adventure group ever in this game so I have no idea how long battles should last.

    But once again even the intelligent mobs so to speak do not know who the healers are till they do something "healerish". So they once again should not attack a healer outright till that person has done something to attact the mobs attention. It also has to be equivalent to generate more aggro than what the tanks and damage dealers have done. Cause as a player I would be hard pressed to figure out who is the healer in any group till they healed. If there were PVP in this game that is ;). So yeah bugs for instance are really to dumb to know who they should target or at the very least be subject to long hate generation times. Elite mobs like a WA LT for instance would require less time to generate hate. But they still would not now who the healer is till they did something like heal.. Part of the fun factor of any grouping in any MMO anywhere are group tactics and aggro management. Its part of the fun the draw and why people group besides killing more things for faster exp. What benefit is there to grouping other than getting a dragons ROP's done ? Part of the equation needs to be that grouping is funner because it requires different tactics and thought processes. Part of that is aggro management.

    So in the end it still comes down to a aggro hate generation thing.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

    The problem people are seeing only really manifests itself when the group is comprised of a wide range of ratings. The tighter the rating range, the easier it is to use damage to hold aggro.

    If you have a group of 20, 21, and 22 with the 22 pulling, the mob will zero in on the 20 but will quickly change to whoever does the most damage, usually after one or two hits. If you have a level 40 and a level 15, however, it will be much more difficult for the 40 to get the monster to catch a clue and attack the larger threat.

    This is a direct assault on powerlevelling and twinking. It does little to affect similar rated groups or the uber-ped leveling a new class. It does, however, put a large damper on social or guild hunting groups. It also makes the power balance discrepency between certain schools and school combo's painfully evident in some instances.

    Drev

  16. #16

    Default Re: Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

    I have been mostly hunting with a lowbie char and much of that time has been spent in a group of two where the other person was upto 5 levels above me in rating.

    I would pull the mob with my cedar xbow then switch to sword and shield he would attack the mob with his axe and withing 2 slashes I had lost agro in 90% of combat.

    I did group with some slightly higher rated friends (upto 27) and go hunting t2 mobs and these mobs would instantly agro me each time even though I could not hit them or harm them fortunately the healer kept me alive until I left because I didn't like not causing pain.

    Logically thinning numbers makes sense as does killing people who cast heal or buff spells. But there needs to be more ways for a tank to manage agro.
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  17. #17
    Dirtz
    Guest

    Default Re: Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

    Went group hunting with my lowbie Healer lvl 22, a Ranger 20,a Cleric 15, and a Warrior 10.

    The following was observed:

    Ranger pulled mob, warrior took aggro without hitting mob,I cast heals to keep warrior alive,I get mobs attention for the rest of the battle.

    We hunted Cedar treants, then grass beetles,the Amy Golems, and finally back to grass beetles.

    After the warrior left, I gained aggro as soon as I cast my first debuff or heal on every pull for the rest of the night....

    I was highest ranked,I wasn't dealing damage and no-one could pull it (them) off of me. All I could do is chain cast heals on myself. I wasn't in the best of armorbut I wasn't expecting to play tank all night while the lower levels wailed away?!

    How is this fixing the situation? If heals are building hate then you need to give tanks a taunt ability to distract their attention and let the healers catch their breath. I know its not a simple formula, but would like to see dam/time and heals/time better balanced as a means to determine who gets aggro.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

    Odd behaviors...

    Rate of spawn in Sslanis Basin is very high and mobs are running around in packs (gruoks, spiders, weaker skeletons). Given that this area appears to be targeted for young crafters, especially confectioners by the farm, something needs to be tweaked downwards.

    Losing mob to the lowest rating even when I've done all the damage. This has happened to me in and out of group. I'll smack, for example, a Weaker Skeleton Raider with Blast. The skeleton then turns tail and takes off after the level 16, 28 or 42 depending on where I am in relation to them. [:(] Since the point of hitting the skeleton was to draw off some of the attackers in the first place, bit of a backfire.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

    I tried to help a guildmate do her 'kill 20 cankerous' quest. Pretty tall order for a lvl 80 dragonIthink, but I had to be very selective of what I pulled because everything would invariably go for her. I had to let many a wraith group wander on by because they would completely ignore me and go for her. Maybe thats what the devs had in mind, dunno.But my helping days are over. my grouping days are pretty much over. IfI go to craft and something attacks me, is it going to break off me and go after Mr. or Ms. Crafter 50m away who is minding their own buisness? Boy, that's a good way to generate community... getting run out of the marble by a bunch of pissed off crafters simply because I'm there, and they are having to pay for it.
    Tempus fugit, memento mori.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

    There are actually abilities that are designed to distract mobs. Are those abilities actually working? I couldn't tell you the names of any of them offhand because in the past they have been useless.

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