Got "aggro bugs?" Post them here!

[Seranthor]

Admiting there is a problem is the first step to getting it resolves... Thank you DB.. :)

[kengar]

Good to hear, David. While I think most of us think the current aggro system goes too far, I also think most of us think that some change was needed, and the current system will probably work with some refinement. The current system means that I have a hard time helping lower level characters with difficult quests, but this problem is the greater problem. I've felt really guilty the time or two that I nearly got someone killed because I started a big pull before they rendered for me and the mobs swarmed the innocent bystander.

On the other hand, last night I was out with my girlfriend. She hasn't played much since the merge, so her rating was only 86, but mine was 136. Yes, every mob headed straight for her at the start of the fight, but I was able to regain aggro in most cases, though we both had to spend time healing her until I did regain it. Scaling back the "sack-the-lowbie" factor a bit might be a good thing, but the current level worked in this case. Then again, my girlfriend plays a cleric (cobalt plate at her level), so she could take the hits. If she had been working her spiritist class (cloth armor),we probably would have given up (the hunt, not the game) in frustration last night.

[Theolaerynn]

We met yesterday to discuss this type of consequence to the current aggro system. We will be making further adjustments to the system. Yours is an example of behaviour that we do not want to occur.

David

Any chance us tanks (especially us Dragon tanks) can get some agro-holding love? Bi-peds can do a little better if the multi-class the right stuff, but it is kinda iffy in either case. Maybe a boost to our AE equivalent of Distract? I am at work and have only had 2 1/2 hours of sleep, so the name of the ability escapes me (and I use it every fight! *laugh!*).

Side note: Friends don't let friends code on 2 1/2 hours of sleep with no Mountain Dew in sight... I feel like I am programming by brail[:|]

[KD]

pre merge when i was in my 40's and 50's i did a lot of hunting with a healer that was about 5-8 lvl's behind me. being a dragon with good scales and up to date hoard i could take much more damage than she could. but with me tanking and her healing we made a very good combination. we could take 3-4 mobs that way but if just one went for her i had to get it back very fast or she died. i belive this was the way it was suposed to be. but with current system it would never work and groups will fade away unless tank is of a lower lvl. now i agree that a lvl 100 should not be power lvl'ing a lvl 10 but i think that point distrabution is a better way of handling it rather than have mobs go straight for lowest lvl. this is a game of groups and team work and current system will hurt that

[Altair]

Admiting there is a problem is the first step to getting it resolves... Thank you DB.. [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]

But i thought denile was the first step :P

Alt
EoI

[Mandovar]

an other problem i have had a few times when i hunt alone is that mobs run away from me in the middel of the fight. Dont know if its because of the new agro system butits irritating.

[Jayne]

If we can be multiclassed, why can't they be smart enough to attack the closest enemy?

LOL, yes I understand completely. I was minding my own business watching Spud one night after the changes, admiring his farming abilities, when all of a sudden half of theGiant fire beetle mobhe pulled broke off and attacked me! No, we were not grouped.

Poor old powerful single-classed Jayne got what I call "Hammered!" LOL

Luckily it was Spud whom is very polite and appologized and super res'd me. I was laughing so hard. I could believe it, I was shocked and couldn't do anything but laugh.

As most know, I am very easily pissed and I tend to take it out on whatever mob is available. Needless to say I beat on as many of those Giant Fire beetles as could till I was back in my Neutral zone (calm state). But I was still laughing.

Jayne

[Duppy]

Hunting fire/flame beetles with Spud = DP
Now, watching Spud hunt fire/flame beetles = DP

ergo:
Being on the ice island while Spud hunts fire/flame beetles = Priceless

[imported_Twelvebagger]

Heh Spud's a crazy little runt, ain't he? :)

[gusi]

Pardon me if it's been suggested before, or if it already does this, but would it be better to check lvl rather then rating? So the mobs would go after the lowest lvl player, not rated. Also, what about if it checks rating up to and including 120? So that it doesn't take Bill, rated 150, to almost kill the mob before they draw aggro from Bob, rated 90.

[Jaraiden]

We met yesterday to discuss this type of consequence to the current aggro system. We will be making further adjustments to the system. Yours is an example of behaviour that we do not want to occur.

From the monster's viewpoint it makes sense (IC logic), however it could encourage kill stealing (player side of game mechanics).

If you look at the first post from another perspective, the dragon player was kill stealing by his actions to use the lack of collision detection to AoE kill a group of golems (for that XP bonus). Since kill stealing is against player rules, it just means players need to be more aware of the improved monster AI (attacking the weakest).

I posted this on the other boards:

The old AI was the fruitless "stand there and die" AI. It was rather bad and soon became a nice game mechanic for leachers once stronger monsters were added (post Cursed wolf).

The current AI "fight until death, seeking the weakest" setup needs only a few tweaks. Sentient, and other monsters, should have that "If I'm going to die, I'm taking at least one of you with me" attitude. Aggro or hate or not, if a monster senses it is not harming its current enemy it should quickly find another before it is struck down (after all, it may be too dumb to flee, but certainly not too dumb to just stand there and die).

I've posted long ago on the Official boards that monsters should flee the encounter, sometimes even upon sensing the character/party. The sentient ones know of the Gifted and that they always return. They also know they themselves are not. Thus, their AI should be "scaling" to the character/party. As they sense a higher level of threat, let them summon stronger and stronger help (in levels or numbers) to defend their area from the intruders.

And from an old post in Marketplace, if a pack of wolves suddenly find they can't damage a dwarf, let them flee, regroup (thus heal a bit), then attack again with a few more summoned wolves. Even they would have the instinct developed over time that those short ones have some strange toughness that totally resists 4 or sets of their bites.

TulgAE should put in a flee and regroup option (to spawn more help based on sensed strength of their enemy).

[Xorith]

I fail to see how this new aggro system represents a more realistic AI for the NPCs.

Let us consider how things are now: The NPC will attack the weakest member of a group. This makes sense. It's logical... but not when you consider that NPCs now have absolutely no survival instinct anymore. Think about it - while they're attacking a player that's doing little to no damage, while a higher level player is unleashing nukes galore, this is where the new aggro system becomes completely unrealistic. No doubt, in a more realistic system, the NPC would think "What the.." and attempt to kill whatever is causing it more grief.

The best way to get rid of power levelling is to look at levels and modify gains based upon that. Not instantly kill anyone too low to contend with the NPCs... Lets consider this:

NPC Rating: 50
Group ratings: 55, 50, 45, 15

Just pulling numbers out of my backside here... lets say that if the group minus the rated 15 were to kill this NPC, they'd get 500 experience. They'd still get that, however the level 15 would get very little (much like how it is now). However, lets say the same group was fighting something around level 20. The level 15 would get more experience, while the rest of the group got nothing. However, it would STILL be far less than what the level 15 would gain if they had a group around their rating, or was hunting solo.

Going a step beyond this... Remove the group boundaries. Consider the rating of everyone "involved" with a fight. Anyone attacking the NPC, or helping those in battle. Scale the experience as if they were all grouped. YES, this opens up for griefing, however it also eliminates the ability for someone to power level others. Also, the griefing could only be done by higher ranked players. So far, my experience in Horizons has shown me that the community is strong, and that the griefers are far and few between (thankfully!) Logically, you're more likely to be griefed by a lower-level player who hasn't played all that long than by a higher level player who has actually put some time into their character.

If this post seems off, I'm sorry - some or all of this may already be in the game (Which makes me wonder why the aggro changes had to go in then). I'm still rather new, and still learning my way through the game. However, this aggro issue has affected me even in the lower rating. I almost died many times when someone was trying to help me with a quest. The experience was horrible, and what made it worse was every time they attacked something, I got hit - no matter where I was standing. They weren't too high above me either, and it just made the whole situation miserble. More over, this system is going to allow people to abuse it in every way. Not just griefing, but as mentioned - mages of higher rank can now deal more damage without worry than before. So if you set a group up properly, you can have all the higher level, greater damaging players with the higher rating doing a huge amount of damage, while a few lower level tanks take the brunt of the beating. In other words, you're going to make things intended to be difficult a lot more easily handled with the right group setup. Consider this: A group with 5 high-rated mages... 3 lower-rated tanks, and 2 healers. The healers heal and resurrect the tanks, while the mages let everything they have out on an NPC that is *suppose* to be a challenge.

Anywho... that's all from me...

-- Xorith

[imported_peladon]

Jaraiden drake and Flozzie small one. It must be said that I know of the act of this dishonourable draku. How so? For the drake in question doth bear the name of Sephiranoth, and the act in question was the act of the drake that bears that name. And the act was as Flozzie speaks. And by that speaking doth Jaraiden name it theft of the kill. And Jaraiden be Wise and Jaraiden be fell and never would I question the word of Jaraiden. And Flozzie be bold and Flozzie be Wise and Flozzie hath found dishonour in Sephiranoth that this thing was done, and Sephiranoth would ever be the last to speak against its lack of honour. Nobody and Nothing ever, save the Feast...

Yet. And that yet I will speak that those who will not listen have a thing to ignore.

There was no will in me to cast this dishonour in Flozzie's maw. There was no will in me to take kill from Flozzie and take the name of theif that Jaraiden Wise One doth bind to me. Will in me there was indeed. I did but seek items of hoard that I might peak my gathering of those play-pretties. So thus to Saritova did I travel, and that travel was not taken alone. Of the other I will not speak, save to say that no spectator they were, no gatherer of skill without effort, but of those that may heal and wound and of one that, misguidedly, hath Sephiranoth in some small regard. And to that place I did come. And at my coming was that place bare of other Gifted... And I commenced to gather the foe, that between me and mine ally our ends be met. And met they were.

And of a time, did I indeed gather some many gem walkers that they be slain. not by my effortd alone, but by two, two twain. AndI did run to my companion with opal death in harum scarum bold behind me. And of no mistake, death it hath the power to be. Twice full that night did death greet me, and twice other my companion. And to that one I ran.... and, it comes to be, past Flozzie I ran. Now know this, and if any have found Sephiranoth to lie, then that one be not know to me, I had no seeing of Flozzie, nor of the one that Flozzie fought. With 9 gem walkers in its shadow, this drake hath little time or care to gather the rural view... And the walkers came, and the walkers battled, and of that time the walkers fell. and Flozzie's foe among them, it seems. And I make no denial of theft, but if theft it be, it was this time theft unknowing.

Now it may be said that each in a place must stand forth from any other's bounds of slaying, and it may be said that each in place must have full knowing of those there. How? This I know not. Save the trumpet of herald, or the voice of a god, I know not. Had even flozzie made loud shouting of its coming when I was there, I may not have known if the battle had been then hot. If Flozzie was yet present upon my coming to that place, i saw not and knew not.

I would say that I had no knowing, save yet binding, of the chioce that the walker Flozzie chose. And this might have some sooth. Yet it must be that choice and binding I have over my own doing. And that doing led to Flozzie's loss and Jaraiden's naming of me thief. Thus indeed the fault be mine.

Shall I not take wing to any place that hath another there? Shall I leave any place that hath another come? Ah, but then such small honour I have be of little account. That which I am, I am, that which must be done, I do.

And thus. To Flozzie, I offer such small apology that one of mine standing might make. If recompense be due, I stand ready to make it, though none was sought at that time. To Jaraiden Wise One, if thief I must be, then thy binding I take. Without pride, without honour, without glory and without joy. If ye do bring it to the Five that are spoken and heard, their binding will be bound. If not, then know I regret the loss of any small regard I might have had in thine eyes. To the gods... What may be done? I know not. I have not thy knowing, thy power or thy wisdom. I am but the fallen and dishonoured image of what seeks remedy and not the remedy. Thy handswill move, of that I am sure.

[Flozzie]

I want to make it known that I in no way blame any character on the server for kill stealing. It is hardly kill stealing when the engine is designed to allow mobs to leave an engaged battle to go fight some straggler that happens to run by and means no ill will toward the mob.

With that said, I just want it known that I was not referring to anyone in particular about an incident that happened, but merely referencing what the Tulga engine was doing to anyone put in my position. I consider David's response enough of a need for action by the change to make me drop the whole thing and wait impatiently for the fix to this engine.

Flozzie

[AA0]

There are also bugs where mobs will attack the lowest rated player, but lose and regain agro constantly because they are too far away, it makes taking on large numbers very easy if you set it up right.

[Joaqim]

Well,

what is a realistic aggro system, that a mob get aggro to lowest rating and lose his defensive skills like Parry/Block/Dodge against the biggest dmg dealer within group, as it's not the engaged target anymore?
Well out of my point of view it should a hunt be mainly fun and then realistic - and as far as possible it should avoid PL, but 1st point should still be the fun.I'm happy to hear that some parts are beeing re-worket.
I have the luck that the change doesn't matter that much for me atm, as I mostly play an alt atm. She is pure lvl 57 Cleric and often in group with a rating 60 Mage and a nature caster of same rating. As lower rating cleric you can easily tank and keep aggro, while the other clean up[:)]

[Lothlorin]

Most recent patch changed the aggro system:

I went hunting with my healer buddy last nite, and he has a bit lower rating than i do and to my big surprise all the mobs attacked him no matter how much damage i did. I play warrior class and i spent half the time healing my healer... The only time i did not have this problem was when i used my boar hide mask + critical strike, sure death for any mob :)

This system seems to be designed to kill the person with lowest rating in group, while the tank / dmg dealer have to run after the mobs in an attempt to hit it... i for one dont like it

Solution, change the system or hand me another 10 boar hide masks ;P

btw, im warrior lvl 100, rating 134. We were fighting dire wolfs rating 80 so it should not be a "double rating" problem

[Levity]

I went hunting in the new system for the first time last night. My partner was a 100 Paladin, rated 100 or higher. I wasa 56 Ice Disciple rated in the 70's, my other school being 100 Reaver.

We hunted Nahguk Ogres/Pygmies, Mithril Golems, Giant Fire Beetles, Giant Flame Beetles, and one Fiery Dire Wolf that got in our way as we got the last mandible (I am in need of comps, hence the hunt).

I got almost NO aggro. That's right, none. She'd lead off with Dispirit Foe, I'd start casting or slashing depending on circumstances (Blade of Rending for those scratching their heads) and yes, I was doing reasonable damage, albeit not nearly enough if I were solo.

I only died when we got a passel of mobs (and one backstab avalanche by Mhedon). The only time a mob completely broke off of her and beelined for me was when I was playing with baubles and got the max-10-hp nerf, at which point I had to run very fast from a very determined beetle.

So now I am confused as to how things are working, because my experience felt very much like pre-patch combat. I certainly did not get ganked by the mobs even though I was lowest rated.

I will admit we were grouped with a couple of other people who were not with us, though I am not sure what their rating was. Perhaps that affected things. Maybe someone should try a hunt with someone that was a mob magnet, but have a group member of even lower rating stationed in Kion? It would be wierd if that helped, but might make hunting more palatable to those who have been affected by the changes.

-Levity Merrel, Crai Aisling, Sans AoP by Aiya's pad
100 Blacksmith/100 Fitter/45 Mason/45 Carpenter/25 Scholar/14 Weaver/13 Enchanter
100 Reaver/57 Ice Disciple

[Goriax]

My level 100 dragon was hunting with a friend around 40. Yes the mob went straight for him every time, but once I whacked it a few times it was on me. The problem arose when several mobs were agroed -- I could only get the attention of one at a time, which meant my friend usually ended up dieing.

I will say one thing -- it was a lot more exciting then it would have been under the old rules.On the other hand,we decided not to hunt together any more until he was a bit higher in level. He really didn't want to break the server record for death points, which he would have done if we kept it up.

I really doubt that the people who are saying this is unrealistic want more realism. If they did the mob would go for the healer every time. Think how you would take on a group of mobs which were tough enough to be a real challange. Do you really want them doing the same to you?

However, there is definately room for more tactics and for that I applaud TG's attempt and hope they keep trying. I just hopethey their own thing and do NOT try to emulate the incredibly lame approach EQ/EQ2 took.

---------------------------

I see two issues here:
1. They needed to plug the exploit in which a low level player could be powerleveled simply by grouping with a high level player.
2. They need to introduce more tactics into combat.

Issue (1) can be resolved by changing the way experience is divided. Set it up so that the experience rewarded is pro-rated by the amount of experience that person needed to achieve their current level (treat level 1 as level 2 for this purpose since you need 0 experience to achieve level 1). In that way the low level player won't advance any faster then the high level he's grouped with. Since advancement tends to slow at higher levels, it means he'd probably do better grouping with someone his own level.

Issue (2) is more complicated. Here's one suggestion: When I was a DM (I DMd AD&D and other games for over10 years), I'd typically have the mob randomly decide who to attack but I would weight the probabilities. I'd do a die roll and give extra weight to players who were closer or who were an obvious threat (if the mob was intelligent enough to recognize the threat) or hurting it a lot (i.e. classic aggro). Once the mob was on a player there would be a certain probability each roundit would switch targets. If it doesn't switch targets that's that. If it does switch targets then it does the roll again even if that roll has it back on the same player. Perhaps once it's on a player it would give extra weight to other players within melee range so as to reduce the ping-pong effect.

I think it would be cool if HZ did the same thing. It would reduce predictability since the mob COULD attack anyone in the group, but at the same time give the players some control over who got attacked. It would also make it so multiple tanks could all get their share of mob hatred if they're all about the same distance away.

[Jayne]

Yes I agree its more of a challenge, and I like that.

Perhaps they will think of a happy medium, because the main thing I miss is social grouping which was more fun with the old system.

Jayne