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Thread: Where's the war?

  1. #1

    Default Where's the war?

    Simply put, there isn't one. Yeah sure, we have raids. Well, raids are just that...raids. It's not warfare, it's nuisance.

    We had a war of sorts once upon a time. Blight anchors were a representation of an offensive effort on the part of Withered Aegis. They were tough, blighted everything in sight and spit out hordes of mobs bent on destruction. Ok, I admit there were problems...invisiblity, highly mobile anchors, chain creation of mobs and some problems with where they spawned. Then people started crying and whining...

    "It's not fair, I can't kill them, they blight all my resources, snivel, whine, whimper..." I am reminded of an old Roman saying "Dulce Bellum Inexpertis". My latin is a tad rusty but, basically it means "War is delightful to the inexperienced" "It's not fair..." Please! Since when has war been fair? War is a dirty, messy and dangerous business. Basically those that can't handle it need to get the hell out of the way of those who can. "I can't kill them..." Somebody explain the point of this whine to me please? "They blight all my resources..." No kidding? Really? War is not waged to conveinience the crafters. Far from it, war is waged to make their lives has hard as possible. The quickest way to win any war is to remove an enemy's ability to offer effective resistance. By blighting resources WA is doing just that. I would also ask what the crafters did back in the pre-merge days when blighted resources were a daily fact of life in Istaria.

    So, as time progressed the powers that be heard the crying and whining long enough and removed the anchors. We didn't beat them, although we got to a point where they were somewhat controlled. And yet the whining about blighted resources continued. So long Anchors, take your victory back to WA and gloat over it. Yeah, I said VICTORY. We did nothing that forced their removal other than incessant whining. That is an admission that we couldn't handle it. And it has stuck in my craw ever since. I am a member of the community, the community lost that round and therefore WE ALL lost that round. Basically, we have lost or are losing the war. And we want titles, and emblems and all this other crap saying how good we are. I think we deserve labels that say "LOSER" in big glowing red letters.

    Now the Devs are saying the Anchors are coming back. I say "Hurray!!". Bring em on, give us a chance to get even and get back on the winning side. And while your about this little chore, make them bad to the bone. Anchors should be stationary. They should be well guarded. They should spit vexators along with everything else they drop on us. And they should be but a part of a greater effort from WA to challenge us.

    Currently, the war against WA is non-existant. They raid us, we raid them. Yes, characters going to hunt the Deadlands, the Satyr Islands, the Dead Pool etc are raiders. For many, its little more than target practice. Along with the anchors, how about bringing back the Avatar of Pain to do town raids. Remember Harro pre-merge? Have WA forces attack, and if not stopped in a reasonable amount of time, damage and/or destroy World Objects...tunnels to Satyr Isand Portals come to mind. All those crazy machines could and should be targeted. How about some packs of Cursed Wolves randomly patrolling the roads hither and yon?

    Give us a war. Crafters would need guarding, Anchors and other WA mobs would need destroying. World Objects would need to be repaired or rebuilt. Everyone is crying for content. Well, the war is on-going, ever-changing, constant and mainly player generated content. Sure, the devs create the CONDITIONS of the war. Our reactions to the conditions creates the CONTENT. Of course, care must be exercised that WA forces don't overwhelm us. Numbers of anchors, AoPs, World Object raidersetc has to be proportionate to the numbers of player ONLINE atany given time.

    Most if not all of the mobs are old 'friends'. They just need new purpose. They should also be tiered to fit the appropriate regions of Istaria. If the Devs can get this war going, I'm sure the players will makecontent for it. The nay sayers are gonna jump on this with both feet saying no-one will do anything about anything that happens. I begto differ O Nay Saying Ones. Let the war commence, get out of the way and watch what happens.

    And while we wage war, real war mind you, the devs have the'content monkey' off their backs for a while and can work uninterrupted on other things to improve the game. And that brings me to my biggest beef with people's wantsin this game. Too often we, me included, want to look at the game from the "What is good for me?" perspective, to the exclusion of what is really important. And that is what is good for the GAME. Many of us have played this came since release or shortly thereafter. We stuck with it for a reason, its a great concept with awesome potential. The only way that potential can be realized is for the devs to do what is GOODFOR THE GANE and not what is GOOD FOR THE INDIVIDUAL. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. If one or more of my classes takes a hit, so be it, I will adapt. You can too.

    Kwinn

    Kwinn
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Where's the war?

    I agree, bring it on!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Where's the war?

    *Throws down gauntlet*

    I dare you, Withered Aegis! Mess with me!!

    I have taken out innumerable amounts of your comrades! I will destroy you, annihilate you, unblight you, crush you, break you, smash you, obliterate you!!

    Blight what you can, I will eradicate your influence!

    Trouble my world, I will set it aright!

    Time to die, my already dead foe- come before me and I will drive you to the hinterlands!!


    Wage war with me, and watch how I drive you into utter obilvion!!!
    Foxfire Godspell, Ice Queen of Istaria, Dark Defenders
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Where's the war?

    The problem is that there is presently no way to give us a "war". In war, resources are used up, supply lines are cut. The earth itself is scorched.

    The problem with the Blight Anchors (and every other part of the "enemy") is that it is infinite in supply, unless removed or changed. In real war, when you run out of people, guns, bombs, bullets, swords, arrows, spears, shields, armor, etc, all you are left with is a barroom brawl. In the WA War, they never run out of anything, neither do we; save patience. Since they are run by a machine, and we are human beings, all it ever becomes is a boring stalemate. Eventually the machine will win. Why? Because it can outlast our patience every time.

    Thus, might as well roll over and say "you win" to the WA.

    Or, maybe in a few years when they can actually give us a mechanically-accurate war. Don't tell me it can't be done in a game, either. I played Squad Leader long before some of the devs were even out of diapers.[:P]
    Erus Ex Universitas -- Erus Ex Istaria Guild Home

    1. Fix what is broken. -- 2. Finish what is not complete. -- 3. Start something new.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Where's the war?

    My recollection was they had to pull them due to being bugged, not because of the *whiners*

  6. #6
    Lancalderon
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    Default Re: Where's the war?



    My question is why can't we wage war even though it is a machine.


    Rules for capture the flag or kill the general / blights.

    1) we know there is an unlimited foe (especially since we respawn as well)
    2) Their access is via the anchors
    3) We must take out the anchors (but to interject the randomness) in it create a general (who is not necessarily on the front lines). So if we kill an anchor there is a repreive from that line but the general can reinstate close to it or somewhere else until we find him (behind enemy lines) and kill him.

    That type of logic is not overly complicated. Just limit the number of archors allowed and the respawn point of general is way way way way far away that it would take much longer to get to anyplace real while no one is watching or just not allow a respawn of him?

    Thanks

  7. #7

    Default Re: Where's the war?



    i'm in a game atm that's got your war.

    and quests.

    and an endgame that never ends.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Where's the war?

    I dunno, Pharcellus. Your model of war implies that the two sides are more or less evenly matched, so that they both havesimilar strengths andsimilar limitations and are kind of symmetrical enemies to each other. But that's not the only kind of war there is.

    What about Sampson and Goliath? What about War of the Worlds? The War on Drugs? There are others. Those are cases where the sides in the war (or fight or conflict or whatever)are sorta different from each other.

    The blight anchors are more of the invasion sort of war.

    Not that yourdefinition of war isn't valid, and not that it wouldn't be fun. But it's just one definition, the one in which the two sides are evenly matched. [:)]

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Where's the war?

    Ummm, I never suggested that they were evenly matched anywhere at all.

    The point is that we can keep killing Blight Anchors (for example) until the cows come home, but unless there is direct intervention by the devs, the situation NEVER changes. The WA never advance, and neither do we. There's just no feeling of accomplishment... or loss. No feeling of winning, or losing. It's just the same thing, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over .................................................. ........

    We go and attack them in their strongholds, wiping their spawns clean. They spawn more. There's no supply line to attack There's really no front. We can penetrate their lines all the way to the eastern stronghold, even without a single fight, and find... nothing! It is empty. There's no command center to attack. No commanders to kill. No war machines to destroy. No intelligence to gather. The enemy is static; we know everything about them that can be known from observation and experience. They always have the same numbers, neither growing, nor shrinking. The only thing we can count on is that they will appear in the same spots out of thin air. How do we attack that? How can we prevent them from simply appearing anymore? No one knows, and no one CAN find out until the devs activate the Deus Ex Machina to give it to us.

    Once in a great while, they make an assault on the living races. They attack our towns, shutting down our portals, killing the inhabitants. Repeatedly. They don't destroy anything. We eventually kill them. They are toying with us. Their attacks leave no lasting ill effects.

    There is a point to war; you fight to subjugate/destroy the enemy or destroy the enemy's ability to wage it. There's ground to take and hold. We beat the Satyr Machines. Nothing changed except Satyrs crawling out of the woodwork. Their home islands are still blighted and occupied. Feladan is the only exception, yet in a year, we've been unable to repeat that success ANYwhere, and there is STILL a piece of Feladan that is blighted to this day.

    This isn't a war. It is a game. The living races are being toyed with. We don't stand a chance against an enemy with infinite soldiers, infinite, unassailable supply lines, unreachable commanders, and no consistent, repeatable way to take back ground lost to them.

    It has nothing to do with "evenly matched" sides. Hell, even guerilla fighters can achieve results from small skirmishes and coups. We can't even do that.
    Erus Ex Universitas -- Erus Ex Istaria Guild Home

    1. Fix what is broken. -- 2. Finish what is not complete. -- 3. Start something new.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Where's the war?

    So we can't destroy the blight anchors?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Where's the war?

    One of the more difficult things we have been wrestling with is how to make it entertaining and to give players a sense of accomplishment. The first time you kill a Blight Anchor or invasion you feel elated and excited. The next time, a little less so. The third time, fourth time, fifth time, etc. I guess maybe you see the point.

    However, that said we do have some ideas that we're working on. I cannot say more (no matter how much I'm prodded), but we are working hard to make sure that it is something fun for players.

    - Amon
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Where's the war?

    He he if you figure this out, then maybe you can move on to the realm of marriage and divorce : )

    thanks amon

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Where's the war?

    Can we destroy the blight anchors?

    Permanently? No.

    We killed them and the mobs that spawn from them, but they were be back within a few hours to a day. We killed them and killed them and killed them.

    Like Amon said, the first few times, there is a feeling of accomplishment, but after months of respawns, it was hard to find any adventurers willing to fight them. Crafters would hit the channels for hours, asking for a brave adventurer group to come clear the mithril, the yew, or the silk. Eventually, they stopped crafting, suited up, got a few of their crafter buddies who had an adventuring bone in their bodies, and whacked the anchor and cleaned up the mobs. Then, they would change back into their crafting gear, work a few hours, and mobs started appearing again, and blighted nodes started popping again.

    Eventually, anchors started dropping loot, giving the adventurers some reason to fight them but, I mean, how sensible is that? The WA is now providing an incentive for the living races to destroy their troop transports??? Snuh? [*-)]

    To be fair, I'm aware that the devs are working on ways to make the war actually into a war, but I have to wonder, as anyone who thinks about game design and operation would, why wasn't this considered long ago? It would seem to me to be one of the core gameplay issues that would need to be considered to make the game successful. I believe that there was some thinking that went into it (dynamic blight, anyone?), but it just wasn't an important enough feature to make it in before now.

    Anyway, my arguments really only stem from the way the game is now, and has been, but that's what we have; it's also what new players experience and hear about. What's their incentive to get involved in a war that isn't a war? Outside of the joy of killing, which will soon fade away after then nth kill, and will become a chore, what's there to look forward to?

    Grinding levels, then schools. Farming.
    Erus Ex Universitas -- Erus Ex Istaria Guild Home

    1. Fix what is broken. -- 2. Finish what is not complete. -- 3. Start something new.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Where's the war?

    I see that you have serious concerns here, Pharcellus, and I just wonder what you think can be done to address them.

    For example, how would you solve the "war" problem that you see here, if you were in charge of doing it?

    Not being provocative. Just curious.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Where's the war?

    Quote Originally Posted by arseovrteakettl
    I see that you have serious concerns here, Pharcellus, and I just wonder what you think can be done to address them.

    For example, how would you solve the "war" problem that you see here, if you were in charge of doing it?

    Not being provocative. Just curious.
    Ah, andgiving suggestions that are possible with this engine, and not things that it can't do, would be helpful.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Where's the war?

    The main problem with the Blight Anchors is they affected mainly the crafters and not the adventurers. After a few days of no adventurers wanting to bother with the anchors the resources were all blighted. Where were the adventurers at the time? On Elnath. I did a search one night after finally being able to login after 3 days, yew was totally blighted and there were 23 people on Elnath. Yes, we lost that battle due to apathy. Things were too predictable and got stale fast.

    Why? The risk versus reward was not there. Then the Anchors got bugged, spit out MoBs like there was no tomorrow or were invisible. Anchors should come back, but less predictable in timing, in other spots rather then resource only, blocking entrances to towns, Bristugo even, and with the bugs worked out.

    A Dynamic Blight we do not have. Remember the game Starcraft? Once the Zerg built their hives their "Blight" spread outwards from it and they built accordingly to expand their foothold. That is the way it should work here.

    Once an Anchor appears and drops its initial payload the enemy should be expanding that foothold and not just sending out troops to wander the roads. Have them build "Obelisks" using slaves (Welgar perhaps?) that radiate outward from the anchor and protect it. One would have to destroy each Obelisk before they can get to the Anchor. Then move the blight out from there so ALL the resources are not blighted after the first few hours of an anchor appearing.

    Can you imagine the Chaos if they took over Bristugo like that? perhaps secretly building in from the Amethyst Golems? Keeping their presence quiet until they were ready to make a move? Now that would make a war.
    Bori Grimbattle --->The Dwarf
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Where's the war?

    As it stands right now, there's not a lot that can be done to make the war happen. I suppose that some aspects could be manually performed, IF they had the staff to man it.

    Anything else would require changes to the game which they are working on, but to really get the flavor of a war is going to take one HELL of a lot of work. I would estimate that it would be a project on the order of the client rewrite to really do a bang-up job of it.

    So, I expect we will get bits and pieces of it over a period of time. We'll get commanders. We'll get events which roll back the blight in one or more areas. We'll get invasions and occupations. We'll get more powerful blight anchors and incursions that we can fight/repel.


    Erus Ex Universitas -- Erus Ex Istaria Guild Home

    1. Fix what is broken. -- 2. Finish what is not complete. -- 3. Start something new.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Where's the war?

    Have the anchors start attacking the portals to the satyr islands, that would give the adventurers a reason to go to war...

  19. #19

    Default Re: Where's the war?



    I have an idea that is workable, gives a sense of accomplishment, and can be done with the engine as it is. Knowing the details 'behind the curtain' makes it look kind of cheesy, but if you don't know the details it actually looks like the fighters are accomplishing something.

    We already know there is the ability to 'link' spawning fields. How that worked (don't think they use it anymore) is each time the engine decides to spawn something in a linked field, it would have a 50/50 chance of being in one field or the other. So if people are heavily working Field A, eventually it becomes empty and Field B becomes full.

    So, set up about 8 linked WA fields outside towns. Spawn the mobs. Make their area of wander fairly large, almost to and maybe even into the towns. As mobs are killed in one field there would be a good chance that they would spawn elsewhere, allowing the adventurers to 'clear' a battlefield of combatants. Make sure one or two of the fields were in the blight, so that eventually almost all the unblighted fields could be cleared.

    To add a sense of encampment, make a few new mobs that are structures. Essentially you take the campaign tent graphic and the siege engine graphics and make them into mobs with no movement and probably no attacks. Just hit points. That allows the adventurers to goin and destroy them and feel happy about it. Or maybe make the siege engines have a huge area attack with a long delay time.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Where's the war?

    Problem is, every week after maintenance, all fields will be repopulated evenly again. I guess that could be likened to an advance every week that we could repel, though.

    The encampment part would require some changes, probably minor.

    Erus Ex Universitas -- Erus Ex Istaria Guild Home

    1. Fix what is broken. -- 2. Finish what is not complete. -- 3. Start something new.

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