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Thread: Price Gouging

  1. #1

    Default Price Gouging



    While related to Nadia, I thought I'd post it separately.

    I was partaking in a discussion in MP recently about pricing. I heard the term "price gouging" when people were talking about overpriced comps. This got me thinking about it.

    I'd like people's opinions on how it SHOULD be, not how it is.

    In my mind, the prices should be determined by the playerbase exclusively. Granted, if that were the case currently, a vexator fringe might cost 50s and people think it's "not fair". I ask, what is unfair about it?

    The way I see it, the players should be able to price the goods they want without fear of competition from an NPC who has a limitless supply. If the fringes are listed on a consigner for 50s, one of the following things will happen, essentially:

    1) Someone else who is feeling up to it, will list the same comp at a cheaper rate, which repeatedly done, will lower the price of that comp for the shard, eventually.
    2) Nobody will list it lower and it will sell, possibly raising the price.
    3) Nobody will buy it and it will get returned to the vault, lowering the price.

    And by this process prices would balance.

    Now, I've said this several times but I will include it here as well: Comp drop rates need adjusting. It shouldn't take a week of steady hunting to get enough comps for 1 tech. If these adjustements took place accordingly, we'd hopefully see a balance of prices where the most rare comp may cost 15s each or so, as an example, and some of the rediculously easy t5 comps to get would stay low, maybe 500c or 1s, like dire wolf fangs or fire opal chips.

    I guess after reading in MP about people being referred to as "gougers" made me stop and question everything. I would just like to believe (and again, just my opinion) that with a well adjusted comp rate, the economy would rise and flourish and for the most part, needs would be met with a fair but reasonable amount of coin, with reasonable being determined by the players.

    -12-



    EDIT: While it's not my authority to regulate this thread, I would prefer not getting flooded with replies about how some craft classes have had to deal with this prior NPC competition their whole career. It was wrong then and is equally wrong now.
    Twelvebagger
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Price Gouging

    To discuss it intelligently you need to put a definition on "price gouging".

    To me "price gouging" would be someone charging a price for a good or service that's excessivly higher then what is considered fair.

    Now admittedly there are some vague terms in there, excessivly for one. How much higher is excessivly probably varies from person to person. That or its like pornography, "I can't define it but I know it when I see it" [:P]

    But the real sticker in my definition is "fair". What does it mean for a deal to be fair? For a deal to be fair it has to be fair from the perspective of the buyer and from the perspective of the seller.

    From the perspective of the seller, the compensation offered by the buyer must be considered adequate compensation for the time, effort, skill, or money needed to create, find or otherwise obtain the good or perform the service.

    From the perspective of the buyer, the good or service they are purchasing must have a value to them equivalent to the compensation the seller is asking.

    For the deal to be fair overall, both of those compensations need to be equal. Naturally there's some fudge room, but that's the essence of it.


    Now when we're dealilng with tech components, I suspect the components being refered to were the ones that are some combination of: dropped of WA mobs, dropped off rare mobs, dropped rarely. Specifically, vexator fringes, zombie ogre toes, kwellen energy nodes, abomination chest skulls. With maybe a few other WA comps and maybe wind golem vapors thrown in depending on who you're talking to.

    Now in this case what some people are calling "price gouging" is actually a case where what is fair to the seller isn't fair to the buyer. If I charge you 40 grand for a BMW and you're lucky to make 40 grand in a year, is that gouging? No. There's just a difference in what the seller feels is fair compensatoin for the cost of making the vehicle, and what you can afford to pay, or feel is fair compensation for a set of wheels.

    So if a seller thought 50s was appropriate compensation for the difficulty in obtaining those kwellen energy nodes, and you don't feel 50s is fair for the value you'll get out of the comp, there won't be a deal. But is that gouging? No.
    PersonalJustice the Demon Slayer - Chaos

    Master Crafter: 1900 Levels

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Price Gouging

    Being on Blight the price thing doesnt effect me. However keep in mind what is unfair in one persons eye is totaly fair in anothers. Also supply and demand and how hard somthing is to aquire will alway have a huge impact on any price. Take Crude Oil in the real world, why is it at $67 currently when just a year ago it was no where near this? Because everyone wants it, not enough of it to go around now with fields peaking all over the world(light crude)and lack of stability in the worlds mideast areas. It all adds up to higher and higher prices.

    But on another note if its true "Price Gouging" then you should be able to find another seller that is selling for less. If not its more a supply and demand issue.
    Ancient Azure - Dragon of Blight (Now Chaos) 100/100
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Price Gouging

    So far I agree with both 12 and PJ.

    When there is a choice in the matter, the market dictates the price using the method outlined by 12. However, there are times when the difference in viewpoints between seller and buyer could be viewed as gouging ...

    To illustrate using PJ example.

    If a car sales man tried to sell you a Yugo for 40,000 dollars, EVERYONE will view this as an obvious example of gouging.

    So, if the examples in game was someone selling a deamon staff for 3 gold, thats not gouging, thats a choice that can be taken or refused. Once enough refuse to pay that price, to sell the item the seller will lower it until someone will pay the price asked.

    If however the seller was trying to pawn off an easily obtained form for something very hard to get, its like the yugo example... To me, and perhaps others, "Trading fishing 5 for deamon staff weapon... PST" would look like gouging.
    As a new dawn rises over Istaria, may we all band together to meet the challenges!

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  5. #5
    Member Kulamata's Avatar
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    Default Re: Price Gouging

    It really is not a player based economy; the scarcity and difficulty of obtaining the comps is set by the devs, as is the price for goods at the pawnbrokers.


    If a comp is made so hard to get that it is not worth a hunter's time to go after it, when they could get several others in the same time that were less risky, and worth more in the aggregate, then the scarce comp might well be unavailable, or at a price that the average player simply cannot afford. But then I believe that the average player should have teched gear too.

    There should be a balance between the time a skilled hunter needs to obtain a comp on average and the time it takes a skilled crafter to obtain the gold to buy the comp.

    The continuing policy of making the game harder, and more frustrating for the average player is what causes the distortions that lead to accusations of gouging.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Price Gouging

    price gouging would be knowingly taking advantage of a current time/situation by chargin an inappropriate amount of money for an item or service. ie: mithril runed stylus needed for the arop and stickin a bunch on a conny for 50s each. or at christmas time a convenience store uppin the price of batteries by x4 the regular price. it all comes down the greed of the party in question doin the selling...whether someone is willin to fall into that trap is another matter.

    for the most part i agree with 12 that prices can and will balance themselves and that comp drop rates for a few mobs in particular may need adjustment....or perhaps new areas that are mob type specific need created....like camps of just ogre zombies and vexs that gather and hang bout some of the blighted structures that look like they could draw and channel interdimensional energies.
    Soaring the skies of Istaria every day.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Price Gouging

    Gouging only has context with indispensible items, and even then the term indispensible is context sensitive.

    Here is a real-world example we all know and love: Gas prices. When the price is to the point where it becomes arguably uneconomical to have employment, there is a problem. We all feel the pinch in one way or another, either when filling up our own vehicles or when paying higher prices for goods from companies that need to account for their own transportation and shipping costs.

    However, some folks are fortunate enough to either live close by work (like myself), live on a city transportation route, or work from home. This reduces the effect of gas prices, perhaps to the point where gas is not as indispensible as it is for other folks. I guarantee gas prices do not have the same context for me as they do for some co-workers of mine that commute from 40+ miles out.

    Another example is emergency medical help. It is a pretty sad thing when society is at a point where a hospital will let someone die because they cannot pay for emergency aid.

    In-game context gets a bit fuzzier when taken from this perspective, but for myself there is nothing in game I absolutely need and therefore there is no such thing as gouging for me. If you ask too much I simply wont buy, but I am sure there are plenty of other people out there who will.

    "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
    - Albert Einstein

  8. #8

    Default Re: Price Gouging

    Before you can set a price to a comp you have to look at the following. Is the comp in demand and how hardis it to find? Some comps are used more often then others, such as mithril Golem frags and some that are used in quite a few techs are extremely hard to come by.

    The drop rate for any comp should be based on how much that comp is needed. Call that a useage factor and work out a number for it. That number along with the repective Tier of the comp should be what gives you the drop rate. That drop can also then be modified by the difficulty factor of obtaining it. The final rating on a particular comp could be the used in setting prices.

    If the comps were all listed with a rating number alongside, then a quick glance at the list would allow everyone an idea of what a fair price is for the comps they are buying or selling. If a paricular comps rating is 50% higher then a different one then you can expect to pay 50% more to obtain it.

    Anyway....ramblings...but an idea!!
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Price Gouging

    Yes I was in MP when that was brought up 12. I believe as you do that prices will regulate themselves.

    Now all know that I sell my comps at very reasonable prices. I don't think anyone can argue that. I hunt for fun and make a little money doing it.

    Now let me switch sides for a moment. Lets say someone feels a blue vex is worth 50s, what is wrong with that?

    I mean its funny that everyone says hey im going to nadia for these comps, but if they went to nadia and bought every comp they needed then they would spend more then buying some blue vex from a player along with getting the other t5 comps for near nothing. Like say mithril frags, I have sold them for 5s maybe even less. You don't see me whining because there only 5s. How much does nadia sell them for???

    Anyway all I'm saying is I guess you can't have your cake and eat it too.

    Again I repeat, I was playing Devil's advocate.

    Once more I don't think we need to change drop rate, we need to change the spawn rate. And NOT significantly! Tech's were supposed to have different levels of rareness.

    I should not be able to just walk up to PB and buy everything I need and get it made in 15 minutes, period. I hear so much about more content and more quests and yata yata yata, but everytime one comes everyone takes the short cut. Asks for where something is to start quest and where to go and stuff just to finish as soon as they can, only to turn around and complain there is nothing to do.

    Really thats there right if they wish to take a short cut, but don't complain afterwards that you have nothing to do.

    Jayne

  10. #10

    Default Re: Price Gouging

    dammit Jayne you're making too much sense, you know ******** well now that such will go "whooooshhh!!".

    stop making sense so people will agree with you. like:

    what good is having a cake if i can't eat it?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Price Gouging



    Got milk? LOL

  12. #12

    Default Re: Price Gouging

    Eat at KFC!

    mmmm

  13. #13

    Default Re: Price Gouging

    Ohhhh how I should have known that was coming G! LOL

    Jayne

  14. #14
    Thalak
    Guest

    Default Re: Price Gouging

    Our economy is a myth.

    A lot of prices are based on what pawn-brokers resell them at, minus a %. If Nadia sells a comp for 32s, selling at 23s seems like some great bargin, right?. Clearly some components are much more time intensive and difficult obtaining vs. say a Mithril Fragment so they should carry a higher weight. Simple fact is Nadia says %rare-mob-low-drop-rate-comp% is worth 32s and if someone asks more for it, you just go to Nadia.

    With forms we get price based on Vielo or Pawn-Brokers again, same situation.

    Techs appear to be the only real market item, but those twocan be pawned and folks base prices accordingly for commons, exceptions being like Mining 4 or Smelting 4, some of the stats like Focus/Power, or defensive techs like health/armor.

    Rare drop items like Bald posts in MP are probably the only real player-driven prices we have: As others have stated you can take the offer, leave it, or haggle.

    If we are to follow suit, 12, and really wish we could take the market into our hands, the function of pawns and the function of Nadia &amp;her evilcousins in the Vieloneeds to be redone. Personally I hope we have an event where the WA storm Bristugo haul them all off and torture them in the far east fortress for a few years.

    Do a search on how many times the subject of Nadia has come up in the last month alone. If the Dev's can't hear that and do something about it then we may as well all just throw our hands up in the air.

  15. #15
    Viceroyx
    Guest

    Default Re: Price Gouging

    If goods are readily available, there can be no gounging.. Someone might be offering a car or a comp at a crazy price, but that means solely that the seller is crazy and is seeing little volume. To be gouged, the customer must have no other option (or essentially limited options) and as PJ said the price deemed "unfair". Otherwise, you would have to conclude that customers volunteer to get gouged, which is not the case. Thus, given that we all can hunt and Nadia already serves as a ceiling on price, it's pretty hard for anyone to be gouged on a comp.

    The reason why these issues pop up isn't really becausing there is some pricing cabal on the shard. The reality is that you get griefed in any setting (in this game), whether in mp or in these forums, for anything.

    That said, everyone knows that there are some on the shard that always try and sell things at prices considerably higher than every other person on the shard. So what? It's a free world.

    Viceroyx
    The Dark Council


  16. #16

    Default Re: Price Gouging

    I am not a proponent of keeping Nadia and her cohorts in the game however, Price gouging can and will occur its the nature of the beast while it pains me to say this I will say this Until they get the drop rates adjusted in game Keep nadia in game as a method of price moderation, what am i talking about? if she stays in game now at her current pricing people that want to sell their techs wont price them higher then hers after a bit they should gradually diminish herinventory till she fades out. OH they would have to take the time to do that and how long has player made ambrosia been in game and the venders are still in. In general untill we have the time to establish tings sadly she needs to stay
    Given enough time and the proper temperament anything doable in game is possible
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Price Gouging

    Spawn rate, not drop rate. All creatures have the same drop rate.

    I hunted vet abom night before last and got 2 comps out of 10 kills.

    I hunted emerald golems last night and got 0 compsout of 25 kills.

    How's that for luck. Am I complaining, NO. Its like rolling a die.
    Sometimes you win somtimes you lose.

    Jayne

  18. #18
    Member Kulamata's Avatar
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    Default Re: Price Gouging

    It is all entirely synthetic. Spawn rates, drop rates, Pawnbroker and Vielo pricing as well as loot rates, resource drops, equipment drops are all entries in a database. As the past has shown, there is nothing immutable.

    I note that some of those who are supply items that have price caps set by the Vielo would like those caps removed. How would that benefit the player population as a whole?
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Price Gouging

    I'd rephrase that personally, as, "How would that benefit the game as a whole?" What's good for the game is not necessarily good for the game population, and vice versa.
    PersonalJustice the Demon Slayer - Chaos

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  20. #20
    Member Kulamata's Avatar
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    Default Re: Price Gouging

    A fundamental disagreement here. Too often, things touted as "good for the game" simply caused players to leave. Not once, but repeatedly. The "this will irritate players now, but more will come"did not work. Partly because such changes make for lousy word of mouth advertising. Don't look great in print either.

    Players are coming back now because positive things have been added to the game; Lairs, ARoP, and improved client performance (til lately). And now a new event, that a lot of players really like.

    Good for the game is keeping players. It costs more to get a new player than to keep one.

    I see absolutely no discrepancybetween what's good for the game and what's good for the players. The answer is fun.

    There are limits to leveling, plot ownership, and vault capacity, and I do not see limits to prices for tech ingredients as being any different, let alone a detriment to the game.
    ____Kulamata Quality Armor___
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