The Shard Charter

[imported_Leannae]

So, you contend that so long as a player says he is simply "roleplaying" it is perfectly fine for that player to killsteal, grief, scam and disrupt community meetings and events. Did I get that right?

Let me put it this way, during the Feladan plague we had a griefer on Spirit by the name of Dilgar the Dagger. He was reported but the stance Tulga took (then AE) was, they would not step in and act against him because there was nothing in the rules that said he couldn't be roleplaying a messenger from the WA and intentionally spread the plagueso... Yeah, sounds like you get it.

It might not be polite but there is nothing in the rules that says you cannot play a mean spirited, spiteful, arrogant, ornery, cantankerous person. How much of that person's roleplay you tolerate is up to you personally, but Tulga won't step in because they don't want to step on anyone's RP style. Which is why they encourage tolerance of ALL styles, not just the nicey nice ones. [:P]

Edit: In all fairness, the writing of this shard charter is going to prove to be a major headache. If Order had a closed subscription where no other people could join then perhaps it might work but as each day passes and more people join, the rules written now will come under fire by the new generation. It's a game, people don't come to a place of fun to sit around and do the same thing they do in the real world by attending business meetings. I seriously think you're asking way too much from the shard at large by writing a charter andexpecting every person new or old who joins Order to be bound by it.

[Tokoz]

Besides, in order to be 100% role-play enforced, the channel would have to be a TG-bot channel (which community is not).

You simply can not discuss things as a community effectively if you have to RP around game mechanics. I have no problem with those that want to RP how they speak or how they act, so long as it does not interfere with the meeting. I've had no negative comments from the community regarding that.

[Entilzah]

A few posts have been removed that were not related to the topic's intention of generating a shard charter, but were instead related to whether or not someone having an active account merits allowing feedback on the topic. If you would like to start a seperate topic in the discussions forum on such a matter then please do so, leave this topic for discussing the creation of the shard charter.

Please refer to the forum rules (http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=93533#93533) and in particular the following line :

Please refrain from deviating from a topic's original content. Derailing a topic may result in a warning.

Additional deviations in this topic will result in a warning being given to the poster(s) who ignore the forum rules.

Regards,

Entilzah

[imported_Frith-Rae]

dangit ENT!! I had a whole RELEVANT reply that was like really huge and you messed it up!! I sent it and it coudn't post and now I gotta retype it ARRGGG!!

Ok, the abbreviated version since I can't type all that out AGAIN! :)

re: Moderator Decision: Yes, you have it. The proposed draft would not have Moderators selected by voting, only by application, and then each in turn. Yes, that is different than what was the result of the "Keep Plink" discussion. If adopted, this Charter would supercede that.

And here is my sticking point - why is the charter supercedeing that? What gives the charter the right to supercede an already held discussion where it seemed (to me anyway) pretty clear where the rest of the population wished to go after Plink.

1.Plinkers. You have a set of people, chosen by the community, and endorsed by a vote, to "plink" the meetings. These should be people of good standing in the community and prior experience of at least attending meetings. The number of people in that position should be determined by the community, but they MUST have control over who leads those meetings.

Exactly. This has been the precendence setup by the community effort so far. Discussion and voting for decision. Why do we suddenly throw that out for the sake of having it put immediatley into a charter. A charter which has now "ignored" that conversation and decided - through Youusuke (sorry but I really can't spell that..rofl) and ahandful of unknownothers have decided how that process works?

What would be, to me, the process that follows how we've always worked - is that we have the "official" discussion on what pepole want "after Plink" in meetings and on the forums. We take a vote after said discussion. And what is decded is what gets put in the Charter at that time. At the current time, the Charter should not be stating how it works - without said discussuion. I for one am not for adopting any chater when such an important decision is just "superceded" by the process whomever group of people came up with - without hearing from the community at large, and the community decides.

Then I suggest the right to enjoy the game superceeds the right to the "Shard" charter so instead of expecting all members of the shard of Order to agree and follow those rules, it should be renamed to Community Movement Charter because I log into a game to play it and enjoy it the way I want to. The only rules that should be upheld are the rules of Tulga.

If I showed up to a meeting and refused to accept OOC chat and complained that open chat was OOC, who has the right to complain? The person following the rules set down by Tulga, not the rules set down bya player.

Ok, several points here.

One - Leanne, having never attended one of these meetings I can understand how perhaps you aren't aware of this. But the meetings are not held inthe open. They are held in a privately created chat channel - exclusively. According to Tulga, private chat channels are subject to the rules of their creator and thus allowed to be 100% OOC if the chat channel creator deems it so. The community meeting channels are player created for OOC chat - period.

If you had attended meetings perhaps then you would know that there are players who converse IC as well as OOC. Draxxis for example, proposed the entire Events Team Raids on the Aegis in full Draxxis Character :). Its just not feasible to discuss all the mechanics of what the community meeting is in charge of, entirely IC. IC is most certainly welcome - as long as it is on topic and appropriate to the discussion at hand.

two - who says we're adopting this charter and now asking all Order players to follow it??

This "charter" is merely a guildeline organized by people who are involved in this "community meeting" effor thing. It holds no power over anyone whowishesto ignore it. It holds no power over any players who goes about their business and never wishes to take any invovlement in the organization of the meetings whatsoever. It in no way expects any player to 'abide' by anything. Noone isasking all Order shard players to "adhere" to anything. Noone is setting up any rules that anyone can enforce other than voluntarily agreeing to follow the process.

What implies any different? "We" (those who attend and are involved in the semi-organization of meetings) are merely setting up guidelines so that those who are 'heading up' meetings have guildelines they are asked to follow. There's no enforcement by Tulga, there's no enfrocement besides anyone in the meeting who agrees to abide by the rules setforth in the channel. IF someone who came up as moderator threw all this out and just tried to take over - not much any of us could do. Other than move the meeting and do something else..or something.

Where does it say that this has now become a shard ruleset for all to follow? Why are you perceiving us as being that hostile??

I seriously think you're asking way too much from the shard at large by writing a charter andexpecting every person new or old who joins Order to be bound by it.

...And we're not.

Yes..let's keep this on topic...:)

[imported_Leannae]

My perception of the meeting and charter came from the comments I read in the log from the last meeting. Granted it's text and emotion behind text can rarely be read, but I understood a couple of concerns over the charter and being I did not attend the last meeting this is my only venue for voicing my own.

What you are trying to do by uniting the shard is admirable, but playing devils advocate and throwing in an occassional monkey wrench is what I do best. I tend to think ahead to potential situations and figure out ways to thwart them before they become problems. *shrugs*

And I was trying to keep it on topic. [:P]

[Tokoz]

Frith-Rae,
I asked this process to start and trust me, it will not be implemented without total community consent. It is a living document that will take, I'm sure, months to implement. Yuusake had offered to do this and based the original on what how he and about a dozen others viewed the optimal way of doing things.
It's always open to discussion. Something definately needs to be done with the Community Moderator job. The fact that many complain about it and no one wants it, says volumes. There will have to be drastic change.
But dangit. I've worked too hard and too long to get this ball rolling. I won't let go of it unless I'm sure it will endure without me. :)

[imported_Leannae]

Ah, there is where perception comes in.

Without total community consent. That says that this charter WILL effect ALL person's of the Shard of Order. Or at least that's the intentions put forth.

Months to implement. This implys whether you agree or not, whether youlog-in for fun ornot,it will go forth.

All I was saying was you cannot expect the entire community to agree to follow rules, set forth by players. And that phrase alone says those are exactly the intentions. Without total community consent.

That being said, what happens if you don't have total community consent?

[Tokoz]

Community means those that choose to participate in the Community Movement. Obviously there will not be complete consent, because some people refuse to understand or are incapable of seeing what a community means. Namely, that not everyone gets there way but all hope that the majority will usually make decisions that will bring about the greatest good.

Will the charter be implemented? Definitely. Will it effect you at all? Not in the least.

[imported_Leannae]

And this is community? Maybe that is why many choose not to be part of it.

[Yuusuke Akiyama IV]

Ah, might I ask aomething of you, Leannae who-speaks-here-for-the-Arirabeth-I-had-met?

That you understand that the proposed Charter is for Assembly meetings, and staffing a couple Efforts for the benefit of the Community, thus their name...

...not about the "community" of the gifted in Istaria, or how we interrelate...

...that this entire discussion as to ((how one plays the game, i.e. RP)) is of absolutely no interest or merit given the topic here. It is a valid topic, just one for another place. Would you be so kind as to take it there and leave this to the discussion of the Charter?

My thanks.

now, back to work

[Yuusuke Akiyama IV]

And here is my sticking point - why is the charter supercedeing that? What gives the charter the right to supercede an already held discussion where it seemed (to me anyway) pretty clear where the rest of the population wished to go after Plink.

The act, not right, of supercesion happens when a Charter is ratified. We have no charter now. We do have tradition, and many of them are incorporated in the draft Charter.

<smile>

Let's have that discussion of what we want of the Moderator, or of a set of jobs that might cover the work we envision. Then let it be incorporated into this proposal went the next drafting is done (note C`gan and Tantalyr's excellent language on the World Projects definition that will be in the next draft).

When we get 40 or more, or 100, or as many as we can of every person who would wish to be a part of this, THEN we can judge about what "population" wants.

Let us widen the poll, so that my vote, or yours (Frith-Rae, or Aribabeth's, or Any One Individual's) is just a drop in the bucket.

more on things, below...

[Yuusuke Akiyama IV]

<severely edited down to this key point>
Splitting the job into three separate jobs seems the most likely course of action. This roughly divides what I did into three equal parts.
1.Plinkers. You have a set of people, chosen by the community, and endorsed by a vote, to "plink" the meetings. These should be people of good standing in the community and prior experience of at least attending meetings. The number of people in that position should be determined by the community, but they MUST have control over who leads those meetings. Once voted in, I say they stay until, like myself, they can no longer handle their duties, or like many before them, they decide to leave the game. There should also be a way for the community to remove them if necessary. New people can be voted in as an agenda item.
2. Agenda secretary. This is the person who is voted in by the community and handles requests for the agenda items as well as makes the community annoucements. It would also be their job post meeting notes. All they handle is requests for the agenda items. Nothing else. This person also stays until the community releases them or they step down.
3. Tulga Eliason. This is the one who handles requests for dev chats, global annoucements and different community requests. This part of my job, I didn't like to talk much about because people seemed to think I had an inside line with Tulga, when all I really did, was communicate via IRC or https://support.istaria.com in the form of a feedback. The reason it was effective, wasn't because I was an insider or anything like that. It was effective because it saved time for Tulga to hear one voice and have it be a polite one with definite suggestions and resolutions.

In making this suggestion, I'm not saying that it will take three people to replace me. I'm saying that it will take three people to do what I did and keep the sanity lost to me. [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img] [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img] [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]

Hope that helps everyone understand better 1) Why a charter and 2) Where I stand on the apparent loss of my position.

Very well then, we seem to have something quantiifed as far as needs go. Let us take each piece in turn:

1) current Moderator for a meeting, aka"plinkers"

oh ho, then in this case, it is proposed that the entry to the list of Moderators be limited to those whose self-application is ratified by a resolution? Interesting... not entirely free play, but if a large enough quorum reguired to make resolution remains our goal, then this is fairly resistant to faction and clique interferance. I am begining to turn toward this, butcan we talk more as to why the simple task of Moderating a meeting (as specified in Tokoz's above) need be restricted to a select pool?

2) Secretary, aka "Servant of the Shard"

I would be ammenable to including this as a standing Office so long as it has the duties given (again in Tokoz's above) with the key wording being "Nothing Else". I will work on language for this.

3) Imperial Liaison, aka "tulga liaison"

I for one would be most comfortable if that job was done by an Imperial ((TG rep, WM, or staffer)) that brought Announcements to the Secretary, however that is simply not within our place to ask. If further discussion here below leads me to concur that an Officer is needed for this task, I will add language making it a standing Office. Let us all consider the ramifications of doing so, and the possiblity that such a service would better be left outside the Charter and simply have a non-binding resolution indicate an individual to be Liaison, so that in the future, it would be possible for an Imperial to step into the job.

my thanks for the details above, as this helps greatly in defining one possible course.

[Pharcellus]

Speaking as one of those disaffected by the current "community" movement, it really doesn't matter one whit what you decide to put in the charter, as long as there is no outside enforcement upon those who choose not to participate under its banner, or anything that otherwise affects the normal play of same.

From what I gather, it is purely for the subset of the shard population to constrain them and them alone to a structure they desire to implement.

That said, I would suggest that the community organization choose a more unique identifier than the most generic "shard charter" moniker, as it is a misnomre.

[imported_Leannae]

"That you understand that the proposed Charter is for Assembly meetings, and staffing a couple Efforts for the benefit of the Community, thus their name...

...not about the "community" of the gifted in Istaria, or how we interrelate..."

Yuusuke: Perhaps you should rename it to something other than Shard Charter,as it leaves the impression that these rules govern the shard and not a group who choose to hold meetings. Forgive my confusion on the subject then.

Frith: To answer your question, the perception of hostility comes from comments I've recieved from your chosen leader, no place else.

[Yuusuke Akiyama IV]

My thanks to both Pharcellus and Leannae for noting that the title of this thread does not match the document under discussion. Misnomers are a distraction/danger in this we likely can not afford...

Order Assembly Charter, 3rd preliminary draft, of Wednesday September 7th, 2005, for public review and comment.

<bold added for this example>

Might I ask that either a ((site moderator)) or the initiating voice in this thread edit the title to match, please?


and then: <a nod to Pharcellus> it simply must be non-binding outside the group that participates in ratifiying it, and then only as to how meetings happen and that meeting tries to get support for Efforts. You understand well what is being attempted.

and <a quiet aside to Leannae> Most understandable misapprehension. My fault entirely for that. I took no offense, and trust you take none from me, ever.

[Peaches]

Please try to stay on topic, which is The Shard Charter, if you feel that the community does not like it or whatever, this is not the thread to discuss that aspect of it, it is to discuss just that, The Shard Charter, feel free to post in another thread your personal views on said topic, but not this one.

Thanks!

[Tokoz]

3) Imperial Liaison, aka "tulga liaison"

I for one would be most comfortable if that job was done by an Imperial ((TG rep, WM, or staffer)) that brought Announcements to the Secretary, however that is simply not within our place to ask. If further discussion here below leads me to concur that an Officer is needed for this task, I will add language making it a standing Office. Let us all consider the ramifications of doing so, and the possiblity that such a service would better be left outside the Charter and simply have a non-binding resolution indicate an individual to be Liaison, so that in the future, it would be possible for an Imperial to step into the job.

my thanks for the details above, as this helps greatly in defining one possible course.

It is not my experience that this is something that Tulga will simply do on their own. The secretary will have enough on their plate without having to make the arrangements for dev chats etc. Also, a Tulga Representative actually at the meetings... It's been my experience that this takes quite a bit away from them, hense the reason we started having to separate dev chats. I have noticed that TG seems to prefer having a single point of contact, although they do not officially endorse one as such.

[imported_Leannae]

Please try to stay on topic, which is The Shard Charter, if you feel that the community does not like it or whatever, this is not the thread to discuss that aspect of it, it is to discuss just that, The Shard Charter, feel free to post in another thread your personal views on said topic, but not this one.

Thanks!

Requesting the name be changed to avoid confusion is part of the discussion, unless you mean this thread is only for producing drafts of what has already been decided, then shouldn't that be on a private forum then rather than public?

[Peaches]

No, the topic states: The Shard Charter

It is suppose to be geared towards the development of it. It belongs here, as I said, if you have problems, issues with it, those issues belong in a thread on its own. Please , kindly, stick to the topic at hand, the discussion of the charter and the direction it will take.

Thank you

[imported_Leannae]

Yuusuke agreed that calling it and the topic The Shard Charter was confusing and did request that the topic be renamed to Order Assembly Charter. Mainly because the charter does not effect the entire shard but those who are involved in the assembly.

Clarification on who it will effect is very much part of the discussion. It clears up any misconceptions that any and all persons who join, joined, or will join Order have a choice rather than assume because it's named The Shard Charter that it is written in stone, governing all.

It does not govern all, only those involved in the assembly which has been clarified by Yuusuke and Frith-Rae. Because of that knowledge, I will gracefully bow out of the discussion. I know it won't effect my game play and is more of a private discussion by those it does effect.