Roleplay and the Hazards Involved

[imported_Leannae]

I don't know what Amadan did and did not on Spirit, just what you told me. You told me he logged on just to kill Bori at times.

No, I said

Even the occasional real PvWM that occured when Amadan would log in and kill Bori just because.

There is a difference in where the JUST was placed. Mine stated it was just because, yours stated it was just to.

I'm not disagreeing with shown favoritism. When it's not, but percieved as such, then we're back to people judging.

It's no different than people getting up in arms over those in the focus group. Percieved notion is, they recieve favoritism when it's been said and established time and time again, no they don't. Again, we're back to judging people based ideas.

It doesn't matter if you're a higher level adventurer, in the focus group, a great roleplayer, a master crafter, first on the shard to gain some achievement, whatever... jealousy in one form or another steps in by becoming personal to even the score.

When Khao solved the dryad puzzle on Spirit, there was a helluva ruckus over that. I imagine Phillip remembers it. Someone (remains nameless) got pissy because Khao won the title that NO one knew was coming until after every shard completed the event quest. Because of that - a stupid title in a make believe world that doesn't effect your job promotion in the least -it went personal and got down right nasty for awhile.

People tend to forget one important element. It's a game. Some treat it as if this is the ONLY place they can be someone of importance. (But it won't sway anyone on a job application or resume.) What it seems to boil down to is jealousy because Johnny is better than Joey (at roleplay, killing, crafting, making friends, being picked for a special group... take your pick)and by GOD we can't let that happen.

[Goriax]

Didn't plow through all of the posts, but if you want to RP someone who is antagonistic or otherwise offensive MAKE SURE that people KNOW that it's just RP and EVEN THEN back off if there's a chance someone might be offended. If in doubt stick to people you know, or perhaps sneak in an ooc to let them in on what's going on. Of necessity RP and OOC tend to get mixed up into the same channels many times, and if you're roleplaying someone who is antagonistic, and the other person doesn't understand, you're going to come off as a pretty rude person. In such a case I can EASILY see you getting some unpleasant tells. If not worse.

RP is not an excuse to act like a jerk.

[imported_Leannae]

Didn't plow through all of the posts, but if you want to RP someone who is antagonistic or otherwise offensive MAKE SURE that people KNOW that it's just RP and EVEN THEN back off if there's a chance someone might be offended. If in doubt stick to people you know, or perhaps sneak in an ooc to let them in on what's going on. Of necessity RP and OOC tend to get mixed up into the same channels many times, and if you're roleplaying someone who is antagonistic, and the other person doesn't understand, you're going to come off as a pretty rude person. In such a case I can EASILY see you getting some unpleasant tells. If not worse.

RP is not an excuse to act like a jerk.

Ah but you see, that's where the problem comes into it.Both of the people involved in the roleplay are completely aware that it's just a sparring match of words. It's the other people who are just watching and assuming that get offended and call you down.

That's one of the hazards of roleplay Bori was talking about.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

As long as your character is capable of doing something (dragons cannot cast ice shackles) and the Lore behind him supports his actions (Dwarves do distrust all races other then Gnomes due to the failure of the other races to support them at Aughundell) then everything is fair game. If I can back you into a corner, with no way out then I have won the battle, fair and square.

I have only this issue with your statement Bori, but this is more a personal RP choice to me *shrugs*

I really don't have a problem with anyone RPing anything or any attitude - suported by the lore or not. If they are RPing as far as I'm concerned, even TRYING, they should be encouraged and enjoyed and everyone have fun.

We've had dragons in our guild. and who have just RPed with us in our RP room, who were not the dragons of Hz Lore - they had histories, abilities, gifts, whatever - that "technically" no dragon in HZ would have. Did we chastise them? PUt them down and say "hey you're not RPing right?" Heck no. We Rped right with them and accepted their character however they wanted to portray them - as a result we had a lot of fun.

If one wants to play strictly by the lore that's fine - if one doesn't -to me that's fine - as long as you are Roleplaying - why is anyone complaining or holding you to standards you don't believe in yourself?? (you as in general - if I had a HZ dragon who could turn into a house and I didn't care wether anyone Rped according to lore or not - who is anyone else to try and force it on me?)



And I pretty much agree with a lot of what's said here, and the rest of the stuff I'm not agreeing with is minor.

I just think in a shard where we're all wanting more RP - we shoudln't be going around condeming anyone's RP, no matter how relevant to the lore it is or not, if we want to encourage RP.

We should however make sure that RP doesn't cross the line.It seems we're all on the same page in this discussion as to where the line is though. heh.

[imported_Leannae]

*chuckles* there go your quotes again Frith.

I do have to draw the line with a elf pulling an AK-47 out [;)] but I've mentioned chain saws before even if we don't have such things in Istaria

Frith plays a house now? I always wanted a fortress in the sky.

Hmmmm.. do ya come with furniture?[:P]

[Pharcellus]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Pharcellus wrote:
I don't know what Amadan did and did not on Spirit, just what you told me. You told me he logged on just to kill Bori at times.

No, I said

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Leannae wrote:
Even the occasional real PvWM that occured when Amadan would log in and kill Bori just because.

There is a difference in where the JUST was placed. Mine stated it was just because, yours stated it was just to.

A semantical argument which does not change my perception of what you said one iota. Both of those imply to me the same thing.

I'm not disagreeing with shown favoritism. When it's not, but percieved as such, then we're back to people judging.

That's the main reason we instituted the rules we had in the game I managed. We wanted to not only avoid impropriety but the appearance of impropriety. Even when the admin I mentioned above took out a space station in the noob server (not possible to do without being an admin), nobody filed a formal complaint, but the potential for setting a precedent for abuse as well as the potential for players observing and noting impropriety, perceived or real, was enough to justify following the rules and admonishing the admin.

It's no different than people getting up in arms over those in the focus group. Percieved notion is, they recieve favoritism when it's been said and established time and time again, no they don't. Again, we're back to judging people based ideas.

..and I note you were one of the more recent and outspoken judgmental critics of such.[;)] Perfect example of what I am talking about. Focus groups aren't my first choice for doing developer <-> player communications, but they serve a good purpose, if properly initiated and managed. I would MUCH rather have the devs 100x more active in the forums with all the players than having a focus group, which gives the appearance of impropriety. However, if that's the best we can hope for, I'll take it.

It doesn't matter if you're a higher level adventurer, in the focus group, a great roleplayer, a master crafter, first on the shard to gain some achievement, whatever... jealousy in one form or another steps in by becoming personal to even the score.

There's a difference between player-on-player envy and player-on-enviroment envy. If the environment (that includes dev attention) tends to focus more on a certain small group of players repeatedly, then I believe they have a right to complain. That's called "being with the in-crowd" or cronyism.

If it is a player's own accomplishments that allow him to achieve a goal sooner than others, then anyone that complains should be ignored. However, if he was helped there by the environment or a dev's improper activities, then that is wrong and the rest of the playerbase has a right to complain and be heard.

When Khao solved the dryad puzzle on Spirit, there was a helluva ruckus over that. I imagine Phillip remembers it. Someone (remains nameless) got pissy because Khao won the title that NO one knew was coming until after every shard completed the event quest. Because of that - a stupid title in a make believe world that doesn't effect your job promotion in the least -it went personal and got down right nasty for awhile.

Yeah, that's pretty stupid. I was offerred the title first, because I went through the motions, but I passed it on to the person who had done the work to solve it, and organized the vast majority of the efforts.

People tend to forget one important element. It's a game. Some treat it as if this is the ONLY place they can be someone of importance. (But it won't sway anyone on a job application or resume.) What it seems to boil down to is jealousy because Johnny is better than Joey (at roleplay, killing, crafting, making friends, being picked for a special group... take your pick)and by GOD we can't let that happen.

It's in many people's nature to be competitive. Why do you think there are bleacher-emptying fist-fights at little league games? (the parents, not the kids). Almost everyone likes to feel special about themselves, even in a virtual world. Some achieve it in ways which cannot be challenged by others. Some achieve it through competition with others. Neither way is more right than the other, but you can bet your bootlaces that when cheating, cronyism, or other forms of impropriety are observed, real or not, those who are competing are going to cry foul. *shrug* just the nature of the beast.

The upshot is don't add extra unnecessary opportunities for people to complain.

[Pharcellus]

We've had dragons in our guild. and who have just RPed with us in our RP room, who were not the dragons of Hz Lore - they had histories, abilities, gifts, whatever - that "technically" no dragon in HZ would have. Did we chastise them? PUt them down and say "hey you're not RPing right?" Heck no. We Rped right with them and accepted their character however they wanted to portray them - as a result we had a lot of fun.

If one wants to play strictly by the lore that's fine - if one doesn't -to me that's fine - as long as you are Roleplaying - why is anyone complaining or holding you to standards you don't believe in yourself?? (you as in general - if I had a HZ dragon who could turn into a house and I didn't care wether anyone Rped according to lore or not - who is anyone else to try and force it on me?)

That's called "setting ground rules". If you are roleplaying in a closed group with a completely different set of ground rules, that's cool. The issue is that you shouldn't try to go outside that group and force those ground rules on others. For example, your "house-morphing" dragon. If you came up to me and said "I can turn into a house!", I would assume you were insane (and would RP accordingly), but I would play along momentarily and say "OK, Show me". Afterwards, if you got upset OOC that I wasn't acknowledging your RP, I would just say "sorry, I don't follow your ground rules for RP because I do not know/accept them".

[Goriax]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Goriax wrote: Didn't plow through all of the posts, but if you want to RP someone who is antagonistic or otherwise offensive MAKE SURE that people KNOW that it's just RP and EVEN THEN back off if there's a chance someone might be offended. If in doubt stick to people you know, or perhaps sneak in an ooc to let them in on what's going on. Of necessity RP and OOC tend to get mixed up into the same channels many times, and if you're roleplaying someone who is antagonistic, and the other person doesn't understand, you're going to come off as a pretty rude person. In such a case I can EASILY see you getting some unpleasant tells. If not worse.

RP is not an excuse to act like a jerk.



Ah but you see, that's where the problem comes into it.Both of the people involved in the roleplay are completely aware that it's just a sparring match of words. It's the other people who are just watching and assuming that get offended and call you down.

That's one of the hazards of roleplay Bori was talking about.

If you use /say, then you are addressing everyone who can hear and are including them in your conversation so they have to be informed as well. Unless you want to make sure that anyone casually overhearing knows it's roleplay you should take it to tells or a private channel. This wouldn't be so important with some things, but if the roleplay involves what would be considered rude or offensive in another context then you need to tread carefully and make sure anyone hearing it knows the context.Making sure people know the context is YOUR responsibility if you're using a public channel(things like swearing have no place in a public channel regardless, again RP is not an excuse to get around the rules for decent behavior).

I'm hoping that once people understand it's roleplay and you don't seriously MEAN it nobody will have a problem. If people have a problem with it KNOWING it's roleplay then those people have the problem, at least on a roleplay server. And as long as you're not using RP as an excuse to get bypass normal rules of behavior such as swearing, references to RL bigotry, etc.

[imported_Leannae]

I'm hoping that once people understand it's roleplay and you don't seriously MEAN it nobody will have a problem.

One would hope but it doesn't always happen that way. Yes, I agree they have the problem. It's almost like some people get tunnel vision, they see it this way and no other possible way, no matter how many times you explain it. There have been instances where both roleplayers would send /tells to the person assuring them neither party was taking it seriously. It becomes even more complicated when people find out who your other characters are and associate ALL your characters with that one.

Imagine playing a lunus dragon named Xyeuiape (just a grab) and then logging in one day as your Elf named Charlie but people called you Xyeioape. They've associated all your characters to your dragon and expect you to play every character the way you play your dragon. Strange as it seems it happens! That's why I only list 3 out of 8 characters in my sig, I got tired of everyone calling my other characters Ari.

..and I note you were one of the more recent and outspoken judgmental critics of such.[img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-5.gif[/img]

Perception again. I said then and still say now, I have no problem with the focus group itself. What I had a problem with was one person who happens to be involved in said group that made an OOC personalstatementwhich included the accusationalcommentsof hacking forum software. I STILL have a problem with that person because after shown exactly how the thread was discovered they have not apologized for accusing words. I don't think it's an; all for one and one for all mentality with those involved in the focus group so, me being upset with one person shouldn't tag me as a critic of THE entire group. The comment was directed to be personal and not on behalf of the focus group. nuff said.

[Phillip]

"...but if you want to RP someone who is antagonistic or otherwise offensive MAKE SURE that people KNOW that it's just RP and EVEN THEN back off if there's a chance someone might be offended."

i usually think that people DO KNOW THAT IT'S RP SINCE IT'S A RP SERVER.

unless they are really, really, really retardedly ****************, do they not know that.

oh and another time i got reported for punting a gnome in Dalimond. it was an emote i do everytime i'm at the shop.

i think it was Shentani who told me to stop cuz lots of folks got offended.

wtf.

[:|]

[Bori Grimbattle]

Sadly Phillip that seems to be the case. If everyone knew it was an rp server there would be no need for this thread. Or is it that many just do not CARE that it is an RP server and came for the better selection of plots post merge, or the more mature player as so often was stated in the past?

The Rule of Thumb on Order should NOT be having to tell everybody in range or in channel that it "Is only Roleplay" but rather "OOC <insert message>". Everything else SHOULD be considered Roleplay. (unless in General or Help of course)

Then with that understanding a person could say to themselves "oh, he is not being mean and obnoxious towards ME but towards my character instead".

If people would but link those concepts together "Roleplay Server", "Roleplay", "Character Interaction" (over player interaction) then all would be well with the world. (well a little better at any rate). However, the will to make that connection seems to be lacking in many. They would rather complain.

[Pharcellus]

Perception again. I said then and still say now, I have no problem with the focus group itself. What I had a problem with was one person who happens to be involved in said group that made an OOC personalstatementwhich included the accusationalcommentsof hacking forum software. I STILL have a problem with that person because after shown exactly how the thread was discovered they have not apologized for accusing words. I don't think it's an; all for one and one for all mentality with those involved in the focus group so, me being upset with one person shouldn't tag me as a critic of THE entire group. The comment was directed to be personal and not on behalf of the focus group. nuff said.

Only if 2 + 2 = 4 is a matter of perception. No, Leannae, it is a matter of FACT.

Or did the several pages of our exchanges about the FG and your problems with it specifically (and no mention of the person in question, except in ONE POST) escape your notice?

Come on, don't semanticize yourself into a corner, k? You're a lot more intelligent than that. [;)]

[imported_Leannae]

Only if 2 + 2 = 4 is a matter of perception. No, Leannae, it is a matter of FACT.

Or did the several pages of our exchanges about the FG and your problems with it specifically (and no mention of the person in question, except in ONE POST) escape your notice?

Come on, don't semanticize yourself into a corner, k? You're a lot more intelligent than that. [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-5.gif[/img]

What you saw was my displeasure with the whole cloak and dagger nonsense. But it makes no difference, my intentions to convey thoughts seem to have been twisted into something it wasn't so there's no sense in trying to convince you otherwise.

Which also ties into the hazards of roleplay. People cannot "read" emotions. They can't understand the motivation behind someone's action by text only, so it's easy to jump to conclusions.

When you log into a roleplaying server, it's assumed that all people will be playinga part.I think the confusion comes from the various different types of roleplay servers there are out there by other MMO's. In some, roleplay means no PvP, some it means roleplay with the strictest meaning, others roleplay simply means you play a toon and do whatever. So we havea large mix of people who came from different types of roleplay servers muddling along with the implied rules that came with them from the last game they played called roleplay. Add the human factor of those who have never played any type of MMO and you've got one volatile scenerio.

I don't honestly know if a solution can be found to solve the human factor problem short of constantly explaining it's a game, it's roleplay and the words aren't yours but your characters.

[Pharcellus]

Like I often say "I read words, not minds". If one's words are not sufficient to convey one's thoughts, perhaps one should try using different words.

I don't seek to twist or distort what anyone says. I read what they write, and try to comprehend it based on my grasp of the "common tongue". I'm not a perfect reader, and no one is a perfect writer, so there's going to be translation and comprehension error.

The best protocol is not to repeat what was said so much as to revise or augment it. IE, not "what I said was", but instead "what I meant to say was" or "this is what I say now".

[imported_Frith-Rae]

*chuckles* there go your quotes again Frith.

I do have to draw the line with a elf pulling an AK-47 out [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-5.gif[/img] but I've mentioned chain saws before even if we don't have such things in Istaria

Frith plays a house now? I always wanted a fortress in the sky.

Hmmmm.. do ya come with furniture?[img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]

I think I figured out the issue *grins*

And actually, as big as the groove is that I've worn over the last year or so sitting by the portal in Chiconis - I could very well play a house.

That's called "setting ground rules". If you are roleplaying in a closed group with a completely different set of ground rules, that's cool. The issue is that you shouldn't try to go outside that group and force those ground rules on others. For example, your "house-morphing" dragon. If you came up to me and said "I can turn into a house!", I would assume you were insane (and would RP accordingly), but I would play along momentarily and say "OK, Show me". Afterwards, if you got upset OOC that I wasn't acknowledging your RP, I would just say "sorry, I don't follow your ground rules for RP because I do not know/accept them".

Actually I thnk its more of a problem with HZ mechanics that you almost have to "say" every single action you'd ever want to do anyway (since we mostly don't move much in view...). Thus allowing everything we "say" (and therefore do) to be under dispute.

Our RP isn't really with a "Closed group" its just a chat room - which is open to ALL players - not just guild members btw. But if the sme was going on in "say", then I would just be happy someone is attemping to RP any characterization with story/background at all :).

As to how you reacted to me if I told you I was turning into a house - heck yea you can respond that way! go right ahead! My point is to get the RP interactions going, that allows everyoen to respond (wethery they buy into the character story or not) as they wish.

And I woudln't get upset you weren't acknolwedging my RP. :) You were acknolwedging it, you just didn't believe me.

And unfortunately even if I said "I'm laying down" and you challenged me to "show you" I coudln't. So you could still technically RP I was crazy and assert that no dragon in HZ can laydown fully. And that's why that logic to me doesn't match up, and why I don't hold others to 100% (only what's possible in game) in Lore/game mechanic RP. Because if you really wanted to hold everyone to that, we'd be able to do very little.

(such are the limits of our system - [N])

I would much rather see the RP flowing, with great characters and stories (regardless of what the stories say - telepathic dragons, portaling dragons, Aegis Dragons, gnome defending dragons whatever) where pepole are obviously putting forth an effort to RP SOMETHING, than have to get into some meaningless quarrel that they aren't "RPing correctly in this world" - scare them off or insult them by being rude in such a way (yes I think its rude) - and then have the RP go silent.

[Pharcellus]

Maybe, but there is ample precedent to support suspension of disbelief in that you can "lie down fully". However, there is not ample precedent to support suspension of disbelief that you can turn into a house, under even the broadest common ground rules in Istaria.

The litmus is common vs extraordinary actions. There is a grey area somewhere in the middle where you're going to have different people with different interpretations, but there are easily-identifiable areas of minimal to no contention on either side of it.

I try to stick to as much of the in-game world lore as possible (for as much as there is, anyway). There are some extensions I would like to add in my story for Malta, and sometimes I do with friends, but for the most part, they are not accepted by others gratis, so I don't bother bringing them up often.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

oh sure, to me most things woulnd't just be brought up out of the blue and only those whom I RP with regularly would know about me or my character. That I woudln't just drop into "passer by /say" conversation.

(for example that myself and my mate roleplay a type of 'bond' that occurs to dragons who are lifebonded, that allows us to have a basic telepathic ability and awareness of the other's being -i.e. even if I was across the world if Allon took grave injury I would feel it in my being and respond. Supported by Tulga Lore, no not really, but its common in other lore and we like it...)

Though some do, you know...even IC conversation can have boundary issues :).

[imported_peladon]

So and thus. The spirals yet turn, do they Lady Ari? That pleases me. For there be few ways they may spin that bring thee not back to our lands. Not none, but few indeed..

I too have heard no portly singing. But it might be I shall watch with care that none not known to me offer rare and mighty things for copper... <G>

Of course, A Fool among the Wise I ever be and no doubt ye have more skill at any game than this poor and feeble drakonis...

My greeting to Bori-gift also! There be an ache in my heart where the echo of thy spirits yet live and ever will...