UPDATE: Ancient Dragon Stats

[oluviel]

Getting back to the topic at hand, 250 more health and 133% armor boost sounds pretty ******** spiffy to me. My armor is closer to 2100 and with that bonus starts reaching upwards to 2700 or over. I'd call that some serious tanking ability for meleers and casters amogst us alike.

your armor will be the same the 133% is what's already on the scale it's a base armor increase

[Fireclaw]

Getting back to the topic at hand, 250 more health and 133% armor boost sounds pretty ******** spiffy to me. My armor is closer to 2100 and with that bonus starts reaching upwards to 2700 or over. I'd call that some serious tanking ability for meleers and casters amogst us alike.

Loss of the ancient scale doesn't sound good, but if we get the crystal mentioned in another thread and it doesn't conflict with deadlands stones (I don't see why it should, there are no overlapping effects) the only thing we lose is the 5% haste. Which, with the biggest claw mastery (and assuming our delay is 30) means we go back to hitting once every 2,6 seconds instead of 2,47 (or 23 hits per minute instead of 24). Not much of a nerfage.

(1) The ancient headscale gives you 133% armor. you lose the headscale but gain 133% armor as an innate bonus. Thus the total change in your armor from going from end-stage adult to ancient = zero.

(2) 5% slower attacks means your total damage output goes down 5%. The damage increase from the stat gain is more than canceled out by the loss of 50 to your primary attack stat from the headscale. As a result the damage output (in WoW terms this would be called "dps" or "damage per second") is probably closer to 6% or 7% lower than what an adult dragon with the headscale could output. Its possible the new AOE firebreath might be enough to pump ancient firepower up above end-stage adults. But for this to occur it would pretty much have to be almost an AOE gold rage. I find it unlikely that Tulga will do this given the pathetic nature of the ancient rewards already given.

(3) An ancient should be instantly distinguishable from an adult. Given how scrawny and small ancients look now thats not the case. Unless an adult is standing right next to you, an ancient looks like an adult. Its now possible that a big adult might be about the same size as a small ancient. I'm mystified why Tulga thought the old ancient model was too big. As those on Blight reported, the larger size ancient caused zero problems. It was actually easier to adventure with because bipeds could see underneath them - something they can't do now with the smaller models. Even this visual change is a major letdown to dragon players who were looking for at least a distinctive visual increase in size.

[PJ]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]PJ wrote:

From level 100 adult, not having started the ARoP, to level 100 ancient having finished the ARoP. You advance

You advance by the above stat gains, plus the previously discussed 2 new abilities (Rez and Mez) and 2 existing abilities upgrades. You are better then when you started. Signifigantly. That justifies a rating increase.

Wrong. you get the rez and mez without advancing to ancient. And even then due to their extreme hoard cost they aren't that useful. You do get some minimal stat gains when you advance to ancient, but at the same time you lose 50 to your primary attack stat and all your attacks hit 5% slower.

Thus, in combat ability, ancient does not appear to be an advance. Rather its a step back. A monster an adult could just barely handle an ancient might not be able to handle at all.

Did you read what I wrote at all? I compared a Level 100 Adult who has NOT started the ARoP, to a level 100 Ancient who has obviously finished it. Between those two stages, there is postitive advancement.

[Fireclaw]

Did you read what I wrote at all? I compared a Level 100 Adult who has NOT started the ARoP, to a level 100 Ancient who has obviously finished it. Between those two stages, there is postitive advancement.

Ah. I don't disagree with that.

But why should there be a nerf going from almost completing the ARoP to actually completing it? This makes the final reward of completing ARoP a punishment and not a reward. Keep in mind that the ancient headscale has been out for months now and most 100 adult dragons have it.

Comparing someone who hasn't started ARoP to someone who is finished isn't really a fair comparison given that ARoP was released in stages and most have completed the available stages.

[Leviathan]

PJ, the point is that no dragon is going to progress to Ancient, the WILL however do the quest far enough to gain all the benefits and KEEP their headscale and be more powerful than a Dragon that has gone Ancient.

Acheiving Ancient status should not be a step backwards. People might still have gone all the way to Ancient just for the size increase, but it appears that they took away that too.

I think TG is right on the mark, they said there would only be 12 Ancients per server. I think it will be closer to 0.

[PJ]

Okay if that's the specific issue, I'm sure it'd be fine if they attached the rating penalty to the point in the ARoP where you get the headscale, or maybe near the end when you pick up the abilities.

[imported_peladon]

Leviathan Wise One. It seems that thou hast all knowing and thus my words are simply the whisper of a forgotten wind. For while no dragon is going to progress to Ancient, and these be thy words, and thy knowing is deep indeed beyond mine, I will be Ancient. And thus, it seems I be no dragon. This puzzles me, for I had long thought myself draku. But that I am in error in such surprises me not.

Ye will speak that I will be weaker as Ancient than as adult. Why so indeed, and oft those that walk on two legs be the same. The Granfer be not so hale as the young shave. But age comes. And mayhap wisdom, and mayhap some other thing... I will take that wind and seek the things that come.

But I regret I be no drake...

[Helcat]

eloquently spoken, Sehpiranoth

[Leviathan]

If you want to progress to Ancient. have at it. I forsee no benefit in the immediate future. Multiclassing still isn't available. You will be 5% slower, you will be Ancient in name only.

Helcat,

You are not a dragon. This is not your battle. Maybe if we asked you to turn in your Demon weapon to reach your next level 100 you would be more sympathetic.

Regards,

Lev

[PJ]

And he'll be Ancient at heart...

[imported_peladon]

I know not what eloquence Helcat Elder doth speak of. And my heart be but a thing that beats. But mine spirit... That which I am, I am. That which must be done, I do. While I walk, I. Am. Sephiranoth. for me, that be enough. for others? Why, they be not Sephiranoth. And that be meet and satisifies me also. Let them be who and what they must.

I am. I will be.

[Goriax]

You still don't get it.

You can preach on and on about how start to finish dragons get a boost and they do (how big a boost is arguable). If dragons got all the abilities and stat increases at the end it probably wouldn't have come up. But that's not the way it was done. People have been doing the AROP in stages since last March or May (can't remember exactly when) and the abilities have been parceled out piecemeal. We got the head scale with the first step of the ARoP. Until this last stage it was the only benefit we got.

What dragons are asking is much more pragmatic: "I've done the AROP almost all the way through. Why should I take the last step to become ancient? I did all the earlier parts. I'm still adult, I have my head scale, I have those 4 new abilities (for whatever they're worth). What do I get from this last step? Why shouldn't I just refuse to turn in the scaleand stop the whole thing? Nobody can FORCE me to proceed. DB isn't going to log onto my account and run my dragon through the last step if I don't." TG must give them a good reason to proceed ormany won't. Especially if proceeding were to actually HURT them.

Come on. What rational player would deliberately do something that made them LESS powerful with no balancing benefit? I don't think any of the bipeds posting here would. So why do you expect dragons to?

Be that as it may, the +250 health is a positive thing and perhaps it balances out loosing the scale. I'm still debating that. My final decisionmay depend on whether there's any indication this crystal will actually be available at the time I become ancient. If I decide to hold off I probably WILL become ancient someday . . . about the time they put in those new schools. Whenever that is.

-------

If you're going to parcel out benefits piecemeal like this; whether it be for a dragon quest, a biped quest, or anything else, you need to always make sure that the last stage is a clear benefit over what came before or people will not do the last stage.

[Fireclaw]

Okay if that's the specific issue, I'm sure it'd be fine if they attached the rating penalty to the point in the ARoP where you get the headscale, or maybe near the end when you pick up the abilities.

Most dragons started ARoP at level 100. If a ratings penalty were added all dragons would have to do would be to level to 100 before starting. Thus any ratings penalty associated with ARoP means nothing, nada, zilch, zip .... even if it was a +400 ratings penalty it would still mean nothing.

[Dragonboy]

Rvlion: *hmmm my son... I seetheAncient Rite of Passageis not worth returning from retirement*
Dralion:*What would you have expected daddy?*
Sslion: *Would you care for some chocolate gnome my master before we return to our far away home?*
Rvlion: *Indeed I would Sslion and then we will be of again to our home far far away...*

[Theolaerynn]

What dragons are asking is much more pragmatic: "I've done the AROP almost all the way through. Why should I take the last step to become ancient? I did all the earlier parts. I'm still adult, I have my head scale, I have those 4 new abilities (for whatever they're worth). What do I get from this last step? Why shouldn't I just refuse to turn in the scaleand stop the whole thing? Nobody can FORCE me to proceed. DB isn't going to log onto my account and run my dragon through the last step if I don't." TG must give them a good reason to proceed ormany won't. Especially if proceeding were to actually HURT them.

As I have said elsewhere, whomever at AE it is that came up with the idea of self-nerfing has got to be laughing their asses off.

[Akuluxtraxas]

Stats arent as bad now as 85 speeds nice and the health isnt terrible tho could be better. no armor gain sucks and im most upset about model i loved being bbigger and now as a min height dragon im adult sized and non distinguishable whatsoever.

Still expected much better from you guys at tulga and know multiclassing is planned but the facts are were sick of waiting to get somewhere. seems were eternally waiting and balance is not a desire here.

All i can say is i truly hope you think over this feedback more asso many veterans here are posting and sharing the same frustrations. the lore aspect in ancients gone with size nerf and the stats arent bad but not anything im drooling over. as i said all along Rezz and Mezz are ok but nothing im thrilled over. Drain strike i like tho spiked scales isnt any diff hardly and is a minimal addition.

I dont know what the definition of power is at Tulga but its certainly doesnt awe me in this. I most want to be larger again it was fitting and i felt ancient even w/o any stats at the time. now i feel like an Adult that did a fancy quest.

[Deth]

One thing can we dragon honestly expect the other players to just sit back and watch as content after content is added to just dragons? As some have said I think it will be a long time in coming for dragon school to arrive unless we suddenly start getting our old beta schools back.

[Ulkesh]

ugh

i will miss my headscale, it had a purdy red graphic.....

the 5% speed attack will be missed, but will i still become an ancient given the chance. yes

just to say i am. it sucks that an ancient cant wear a scale labelled ANCIENT though.

and i dont want the beta schools back, they are biped schools and i will have nothing to do with them. if i wanted a spiritists, etc... i would have levelled my bite sized chunk with wings.

[Fireclaw]

Get ready to cry some more: [:'(][:'(][:'(][:'(][:'(][:'(][:'(][:'(][:'(][:'(]

[Theolaerynn]

One thing can we dragon honestly expect the other players to just sit back and watch as content after content is added to just dragons? As some have said I think it will be a long time in coming for dragon school to arrive unless we suddenly start getting our old beta schools back.

This is exactly my point in another thread. AE just doesn't have the manpower to do this in any kind of timeframe. I doubt they could get it done in a years time, and frankly that is faaar too long of a wait, considering we have waited two years already.

The problem is, the ARoP has already taken so many resources away from bi-ped stuff. Bi-peds have plenty of things that need work, and deserve their fixes and updates as much as we.

But in order for AE to work on one thing they have to neglect another, so given the time spent on ARoP, which do you think will happen to the Dragon schools? They will sit quietly while Bi-Peds get their well deserved turn.

For myself, I am rapidly running out of things to hold my attention while bracing for another two-year wait for another major let down. I am certainly on a short short-list of things motivating me to pay for the [lack of] pleasure.