Challenging Mobs...

[Steele]

Yes and no, Ssil... one of the complicating factors here is the fact that there are multiple things broken. Yet "fixing" one relative to something else that is currently broken, doesn't truly bring it to where it should be - it only slaps a bandaid on a current symptom. Group aggro and additional tank tricks need to be looked at almost simultaneously - not an easy task, for sure.

You can't really compare HZ to WOW, because then the temptation is to adopt snippets from WOW and apply them here, which would be like having a doctor treat a poodle. Yes, it might work in a pinch, but you really need a vet to do the diagnosis because it's a totally different beast.

I know you're going to disagree with me, but SA-like abilities are a perfect example of what HZ doesn't need: fast-recycle taunts. Yes, it does make hanging on to a pack of mobs more difficult but there are those who would say that, firstly, it should be more difficult, and additionally, once you implement something like that you can't rip it out without causing a player uproar - and once mob behavior is corrected, I honestly believe it won't be as necessary.

The devs need to take a slow, measured approach to these issues, as impatient as frustrated as we are. It's needed fixing for this long; I'd rather live with it for a while longer and not have to deal with the repercussions of a too-rapidly implemented "fix".

Edit: I'll start a new thread on this before we get scolded by a mod for thread derailment.

[Rawdge]

Personally, I'm not going to scold anyone for any kind of thread derailment regarding group/aggro. While it is a slight departure from the OP, this goes hand-in-hand with it. Still, I appreciate you starting up a new thread regarding the aggro, as there's enough 'meat' to that topic that it does deserve a discussion of it's own. Thanks for that.

Steele, you also stated it very well, that there are multiple things that need adjusting, and tweaking any one thing isn't going to bring about the changes that ultimately should come about. Some folks will say that mobs and their resistances and abilities need to be changed first, others might say that Player Adventure Schools need to be changed first. Still, others would like to see heal/group/aggro changes changed first. The thing of it is, not everyone will be pleased with whichever aspect gets the initial focus.

This is a very tricky balance, and some degree of "growing pains" are bound to rear their ugly head. There's not much of a way around that short of redesigning all of it at once, and releasing a massive change in one fell swoop. One need only look at some other MMOs out there and their so-called "New Game Experiences" to see how those sorts of changes work out.

Whatever changes are made regarding these aspects will need to be planned out, implemented, tested thoroughly, and then adjusted as needed, then tested again. What that means is, changes aren't likely to be made quickly. That is precisely why I don't want to go mucking about with the current mobs as they are. That just leads to band-aids that ultimately don't fit, and just peel off before they're ready to come off anyway.

I think that by adding some new mobs, with new behaviors, abilities and attributes might be a better way to test the waters, and see they work out. It's better than altering the status quo, which you all are used to at the moment. There's no need to go upsetting the established game play if it can be avoided by adding new things, monitoring them and adjusting them as needed. Once a solid foundation is determined, then we can begin looking at some of the broader systems and relationships between them.

Again, I want to thank you all for your participation in this thread, and please continue to post if there is anything else you'd like to add. I'm still keeping up with the thread (obviously ).

[gopher65]

Quick question Rawdge: I seem to vaguely recall someone from Tulga mentioning that there were 4 types of Skulks with models and animations already done (well of course. But I guess he meant new textures). Sslimath mentions Skulks in the other thread, and I like the idea. Even if they aren't armourless Ranger Bait (tm) like the Blook Skulks are, I still like the idea. Skulks are just... cool in a way that the WA aren't. Maybe it's cause they actually have camps instead of just spawning grounds.

Anyway, are you dead-set on making WA mobs for your grouping experiment, or are you considering other types of mobs as well?

[Rawdge]

Anyway, are you dead-set on making WA mobs for your grouping experiment, or are you considering other types of mobs as well?

I have something in mind using some specific WA mobs. Although that doesn't mean Skulks can't be setup in a similar manner at some future date.

[Casyle]

Wanted to mention that it'd be nice if you kept in mind that monsters don't seem to be restricted by timers when you work on those.

I just nearly got killed by a Festival Blighted Yew treant that hit me with a multi-strike attack at least 3 times withi'n about 10 seconds. If Primal Vengeance hadn't procc'd I would have died.

That's ridiculous.

[gopher65]

It also sucks when a mob can use flurry to critical strike and cleave you. Can you imagine a mob that decided to multistrike you with flurry on? 25 strikes in one second:P. Seems kinda unfair that they can crit strike you within a flurry for 5 crit strikes. Luckily they rarely use flurry.

[Trust]

Rawdge,

If you want to do a prototype WA group, why not resurrect the AoP? You would have a wandering unique group that you could tinker with.

[Aamer Khan]

Now THAT's a thought Trust!

I would love to see a new set of mobs wandering all over, resurrecting
new never before seem WA from forgotten eras, and wander through ALL regular player towns.

We could have the Maggot lord slithering around, gathering ancient hero's, or new forms of the mobs of today.

The ideas for such a thing are unlimited.

[Valtur]

Hunting That Is (or Has Been) Fun For Me
Adult dragon - soloing all named mobs for ARoP except Heart, Bone, and Elial; the wind named
Two adult dragons - duoing Heart, Bone, and Elial
Team of dragons, healers, reavers, berserkers, and KNoC - Satyr Machines; I was part of a full overnight team of 8-12 that took out one of the Satyr Machines on Life where just the day before I watched literally hundreds continously die; team/tactics/skill versus numbers
Single-classed cleric and druid team - spiders, grey necros, and fyakki on Elnath before the introduction of evolved; trying to pull every single mob in the "zone" and then actually staying alive through it ... intense
Well multi-classed cleric, druid, or mage class - Indestructible Fyakki before the introduction of evolved; pulling the zone solo and surviving
Two druids and/or rangers (or healer with druid leveled) and a dragon (or two) - Fafnir; fight takes 10 to 15 minutes and you can walk away without dying every time (I'm guessing my number of Fafnir hunts in a row without dying is about 35 as a dragon)
Elven healer and gnomian paladin (or two) with boar's - Valkor; fight can be an intense long one or a few seconds, but you can walk away without dying if done right; especially gratifying after watching a full team of 10 rating 180+ players with 4+ boar's masks wipe ... continuously
Elven healer, gnomian paladin (or two) with boar's, and a couple dragons - Reklar; can be a fun fast fight
Dragon - soloing Surtheim; cleanse tech is a necessity; can get boring but fun learning how to solo and survive
Team of dragons, a couple healers, and a hatchling - walking down the spiral to kill Kaa and then walking back up while keeping everyone including the hatchy alive; pulling Kaa up to a safe spot is a cheap kill but player's eyes are always on the destination, not the journey :::shrugs:::
Dragon - Arena fights against most classes except mage, cleric, paladin, and reaver; I'm sure I could add battlemage to that list but I haven't fought one yet
Any class except mage, cleric, paladin, or reaver - Arena fights; group fights would be better served if resurrection wasn't available
Healer and dragon team - skulks; can cut a swath of destruction but still have to be careful
Any class you're adept at kiting (with good support classes) - soloing SoG; have to be consistent for several hours
Good generic team or even solo - purple flies; good to pass by and not see level 10 dragons there ....
Dragon (no biped buffs) - appropriate level dense wolf or beetle spawns (20+); pulling the zone (or finding out how many you can pull) and relying on arcane/healing/kiting skills to live can be fun
Level 50 hatchling - Feladan's spearmen while Feladan was still blighted; good xp, good spawn, had to be careful to pull just one at a time
Healer and dragon team - kwellen berserkers and blight hounds
Dragon - T6 mobs in the EDL; death from above; terrible risk vs. reward though

Hunting That Is Boring
Dragon and healer - SoG; no real skill needed; only redeeming value is that you have to actually go looking for him
Any high-level dragon or ped - Fall Festival mobs; 'nuff said
Any character - mobs you spend an inordinate amount of time just finding as opposed to trying to kill; snow beetles, ice beetles, and massive maple treants for the dragon quests come to mind
Druid, cleric, paladin, reaver, etc., etc., etc. - beetles and wolf spawns; nothing that tripling the spawn density couldn't fix; OK, my ped has all 28 adventure schools leveled to 100 so I have quite a few skills at my disposal ... still, making sure I don't "overpull" should be important; I find immense pleasure "living on the edge" but surviving

Hunting Thas Is Not Fun or Just Plain Wrong
Any team - Daknor; this mob is just plain wrong ... players EXPECT to die ... that's just plain stupid; the thrill of the hunt is fighting an excellent adversary and walking away alive without having to be resurrected
Druid, cleric, paladin, reaver, etc., etc., etc. - indestructible fyakki; I enjoy pushing my limits on mass pulling solo; the evolved's skills destroyed a once-fun pastime
Any class - Abomination Task Master; if it decides to use its crit ... just plain wrong ....

This is what I could think of off the top of my head. Basically, I enjoy a hunt that is dangerous, but tackling it with the proper knowledge, team, and/or skills, can be done without dying. I absolutely detest any adventuring where death is expected. Death sucks. Adventuring without the risk of death is lame. I'd rather craft. At least there's a tangible result at the end of the grind. i.e. Hall

Aside from perfecting a Daknor hunt without deaths (am starting to think it just can't be done), been there, done that. Bring on the Blighted Labyrinth! };>

[Silverblaze]

So much for people learning their own tactics.

[Sonea]

Blight hounds: way too much trouble for the exp and loot gain. their HP to exp ratio (for me at least) makes them not a good candidate for leveling since I can kill fiyakki in the ED faster for pretty much the same exp.

Blight anchors: not worth the effort anymore. The change that resulted in the anchors producing minions that have huge HP and in high numbers has made the anchors off limits.

Daknor: was a pain in the neck when there were enough people on the server (Order) to form the group plus extras needed to slay him. Now that the server population is diminished, I haven't heard of anyone mentioning an attempt on him in ages.

[Pharcellus]

Healer and Dragon vs Valkor. Well, when you could still get him solo, anyway.

Nazderon and his roving death troupe were fun, while they lasted.

Satyr machines just sucked, in general. Too much lag, Dahibi was a frickin' death point factory, etc etc.

The Spiral was a lot of fun. Most of the time, it was the hatchies who were in a hurry and didn't want to fight their way down to face Kaa.

Blight Anchors: Agreed. I never liked these encounters. They are too contrived, and never amounted to much more than a nuisance.

One-shotting mobs: I don't see the point. If the mobs are that powerful, the WA should just manufacture them into mass armies and be done with the invasion. Abom Taskmasters in the Anchor groups are just sick. 1-2 hit kills of an Ancient L100, fully protected Dragon is hardly a challenge. Basically, Death Point Factories as ancillary mobs suck.

[lightning claw]

Healer and Dragon vs Valkor. Well, when you could still get him solo, anyway.

Nazderon and his roving death troupe were fun, while they lasted.

Satyr machines just sucked, in general. Too much lag, Dahibi was a frickin' death point factory, etc etc.

The Spiral was a lot of fun. Most of the time, it was the hatchies who were in a hurry and didn't want to fight their way down to face Kaa.

Blight Anchors: Agreed. I never liked these encounters. They are too contrived, and never amounted to much more than a nuisance.

One-shotting mobs: I don't see the point. If the mobs are that powerful, the WA should just manufacture them into mass armies and be done with the invasion. Abom Taskmasters in the Anchor groups are just sick. 1-2 hit kills of an Ancient L100, fully protected Dragon is hardly a challenge. Basically, Death Point Factories as ancillary mobs suck.

yes they do present a challenged one that i almost got solved with the help of Valtur on chaos
Loves PV scale the stun one is ok 2 makes a interesting fight but one shots are a nuisance

[GalemThawn]

The Cenotaph mobs would make for a challenging group.

These mobs consist of:
Phantom Mage
Zombie Mage
Ghostly Mage
Blighted Cleric (rank 85)
Blighted Cleric (rank 95)
Blighted Cleric (rank 105)
Bone Warrior
Ogre Bodyguard
Zombie Miner
Death Dealer

If I had to create a group limited to 6 mobs, I’d go with: 1 Phantom mage, 2 Zombie Mages, 1 Blighted Cleric (rank 105), and 2 Ogre Bodyguards.

Add in the Death Dealer for a 7th mob, or put him in for one of the Zombie Mages.

Phantom Mages mostly use flame spells. They have access to T6 flamebomb, flamebolt, and can use Multi-cast III.

Zombie Mages also use flame spells, but cast debuffs and use Maddening Trick more often then Phantom Mages.

Blighted Clerics of the 105 rank can roll out a steady line of heals and are quick to resurrect a fallen comrade. When not healing, they cast debuffs to strip you of Gifts and Enhances. They also use the ability Ignore Pain.

Ogre Bodyguards are level 105 Blighted Warriors, but are not Undead. These guys have 19,410 Health, high armor, and access to all Warrior abilities. They can deal out a tremendous amount of flame damage and blight damage. They also use Distract III and possibly Defend Other V or VI, so they intercept a decent amount of hits meant for the Cleric or Mages.

Death Dealers are level 105 Chaotic Knights with 20,886 Health. They do mostly Flame damage but like to keep Ethereal Leech and Ethereal Paroxysm on you. They have the full range of Critical Strike, Multistrike IV, Life Strike, and many other melee attacks. They use Raise Dead, but they don’t tend to use it as fast as the Blighted Cleric will cast Resurrect.


**EDIT**
Oh, I meant to add:
Possibly change the Zombie Mage to more Energy, Mind, or othe spell damage. These are some tough mobs and could be very challenging as a group, but too much of the same damage type allows easier soloing.

[GalemThawn]

After thinking some things over last night:

I'd use the Ghostly mage instead of the Zombie Mage.
Keep the Ghostly mage as is.
Change the Ogre Bodyguards damage to Crush rather than flame.

With the Ogre Bodyguard and Phantom Mage both using flame damage, it's a lot easier to prepare against and even negate their damage.

The Zombie Miner already does crush damage, but he just doesn't seem to fit into the group. The Bone Warrior might, but he still uses flame damage and really isn't anything impressive.


A good challenge would be a group bound together and consisting of:
1 Phantom mage,
1 Ghostly Mages
1 Blighted Cleric (rank 105),
2 Ogre Bodyguards (changed to Crush damage)
1 Death Dealer

[Vahrokh]

Can you kill all of this stuff as dragon? Because "group bound together" sounds quite nasty of a prospect.

[GalemThawn]

Can you kill all of this stuff as dragon? Because "group bound together" sounds quite nasty of a prospect.

Solo that proposed group as a Dragon?
I doubt it.
It would be EXTREMELY hard, and nearly impossible, to solo that group as a maxed out biped with all of the best gear. I really doubt it could be done, but I've learned not to put anything past the ingenuity of players.

Reference the thread http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=18488

I have soloed a group of 4 Phantom Mages, 2 Death Dealers, and 1 Ogre Bodyguard.

Phantom Mages, Death Dealers, and Ogre Bodyguards use Flame as their primary attack.
Phantom Mages do a slight amount of Slash.
Death Dealers use at least two Spirit spells (Ethereal Paroxysm and Ethereal Leech)
Ogre Bodyguards also hit with Blight damage and have some Blight DoT abilities.

However, with a high defense against the Flame attacks, the whole group is soloable as I describe.

Change that 1 Ogre Bodyguard's attack to crush, and I would have been flattened.

4 Phantom Mages is likely a bit much for most players, which is why I suggested only 1, and 1 Ghostly Mage for stuns.

I suggested 2 Ogre Bodyguards, drop one of the Death Dealers (leaving 3 heavy meleers). The Ogre Bodyguards love to use Distract and protect others of their group.

Since I removed a Death Dealer with his Heal and Raise Dead, add in a Blighted Cleric. The Blighted Cleric rolls off the heals, is quick to cast Resurrection, and will strip you of Gifts before you know it.


This is really in response to the particular portion of Rawdge's post:

What I am looking at doing is putting together some collections of high level mobs, with different characteristics. Ones that would have abilities and attributes that compliment each other, rather than making one ubernasty that's immune to the flavor of the week damage type. It's sort of a small side project, and something that I've wanted to do for some time now, and I think I can get it done fairly quickly and sort of squeeze it in. It would add something to do for you higher level folks out there, and it's also something I can put together and release in small stages without squandering time or effort, and without taking away from the other things I'm working on.

The reason I'm interested in finding out what some folks consider to be "easy" is so I can put together a balanced package of mobs and abilities that compliment each other.

[rizo/nawkia]

could always just make a row of archers with lightning arrows and demon flurrys>.>

[GalemThawn]

could always just make a row of archers with lightning arrows and demon flurrys>.>

I'm pretty sure you're just joking, but even that wouldn't work too well.

I'm not sure on how lightning arrows work or if they have a duration, but since they do Nature damage, I'd just go in heavy equipped with Nature Resistance and likely blow through them.

What's needed is something with multiple damage types.

Now, put a line of archers up with all using different damage types, and there's going to be some serious pain going out.

[Silverblaze]

The game is set up to make resists matter. Anyone who has a full set of resist gear...owns mobs of that type. Resists may matter too much sadly.

I agree mobs need multiple damage types. preferably more than 2.

that line of archers could be elars? fire, ice, nature,...I think they spirit arrows or something weird?

might work, but bows are pretty weak damage wise, i've yet to have an issue killing 2-3 archers

*stunned....more forward...stunned...more forward....stunned...dead archer*

Yes, I realize mobs don't kite....

Please consider this change, make standard armor cool again