Community appointed RP GM

[Iseia]

Would like to suggest that we as a community on this shard appoint a small number of people to act as RP GM's (do note not as real GM )) basically this would help to enhance the shards rp experience by having experienced istaria rpers watch over IC or OOCly the rping to prevent overpowering or godmodding and try to give suggestions to help out newer players create a suitable and believable character that suits the player however they like and try to help with creating backgrounds. included with this i will jot down a few other things this can do:

-at the end of every month a new poll will be made where the community will decide to appoint new GMs or keep current ones and be official once new month starts.

- people cannot self appoint themselves if there is a lack of volunteers and will be required to have been rping in the comunity for at least some period of time and understand that as a RP-GM they must not order people around, only give suggestions. The RP GM must have a general idea of the lore so as to be able to decide if a incident is possible or not. players like to be creative and a RP GM must allow them to be so but only show the player where the fine line of overdoing it is.

-RP-GMs will be allowed to appoint a limited number of moderators to watch over when they cannot but these moderators will have a limited number of rights compared to RP GM and will mostly be there to report or give limited comments to others.

-there will be 2 chatrooms for this, one will be private for RP-GM's and their moderators to consult incidents, and another for public use should someone have a question if something would be accepted or like to ask for info game wise.

-having RP GMs will require the support of the community. if someone challenges them of lying of their position while they do their job it is the community responsibility to protect them and show that they speak truth

-RP GMs will try to work on creating a series of guides helping out those wanting to learn to rp. I would suggest that when someone new comes around they are pushed into the direction of joining the forums. do note these are not going to say that is how you SHOULD rp but give easy to follow ways to start a first character rping untill they are ready to go further.

-RP GMs do need to note again they cannot state anothers actions are wrong only but show them a line where they get to overdoing it. RP is meant to be creative and fun but players should know when what they are doing is impossible even in the rp world.

-((personal suggestion)) the maximum number of GM will be 3 never to exceed this number unless player population gets to large. this again will be community decided.

RP-GM must note this is more of a volunteering job than a privilege and should they abuse the rights will be permanently banned from becoming a candidate again.


anyways if people decide this is a good idea to go with do let me know here and ill create a new thread for the first RP-GM candidates to be decided

[LungTien Temeraire]

I second this. Having been in the community for some years now, and having been in many public RPs for a good amount of time, I'll do what I can to help.

[Iseia]

do note im not intending this to be a place to ask for candidacy, merely approval or rejection of the idea. if this is approved by our community ill make a thread where the asking for candidacy can be placed.

also on this thread i am looking for possibly more suggestions to this.

also I like to add that we will not be making rules mearly suggestions giving the community to decide if that becomes a rule

Roleplaying is meant to be creative by creative people and cannot be bound by laws of one.

[LungTien Temeraire]

Sure, I am not intending to do this here, don't worry, just giving my agreement and offering help for your project.

[Steelclaw]

Just to be clear, since I can see some people freaking out at the thought of players with GM privileges, what you're asking for does not actually require privileges beyond what a normal player has in game, correct? If that's the case, I suggest a term that doesn't use the word "GM".

I'm neither supporting nor denouncing this idea, just trying to head off a panic attack.

[Thicklesip]

As Steelclaw pointed out, GM has a bit many implications around these parts involving mechanical power. A different term like "guide" might be better.

I want to like this idea, but I worry that nobody would be able to survive the job. Bulletpoint interpretation of your proposal:
Benefits:

• The satisfaction of helping keep Order's rp good. (Note that if you don't accomplish this, people will blame you. If you DO accomplish this, people will take it for granted and largely be indifferent to you.)

Drawbacks:

• You don't actually have any power over people. If they agree with what you're telling them, they were probably already going to do it. If they disagree with you, they'll thumb their nose in your direction and carry on.
• The Referee Dilemma, AKA the inevitability that someone is going to get Very Angry at you for your suggestions/requests they disagree with. (Though, if they agree with your calls, they'll barely pay any attention to you.)
  
  • For bonus points, people angry at you are under no obligation not to start massive drama over it. It's like signing up to be the server's drama magnet!
• Did we mention how much time you'll spend unable to do other things in-game because you need to babysit whatever chat or explain to the nth newbie this week why their demigod/demon/werewolf/bird/with kitty ears is show-stopping stupid in this setting?

I'm probably a smidgen on the cynical side about it, but I've watched legions of people sign up to be the leadership in online game settings, and I've watched legions of people run broken/screaming/crying from the experience. And those were generally positions with a much better responsibility:power balance than this proposal. This proposal sounds ok on paper, but knowing what I do about humanity I don't see how it could work without making a few people miserable in the process.

[Iseia]

the whole idea is not meant for them to rp jail the players, its meant to show them where we the community has decided to draw the red line of where going with rp goes way too far, im not saying there should be no drama or they cant make their character how they like but with said at least they can have someone help them out so they rp how they make themselves be properly.

Also I purpously chose GM adding RP in front (RP-GM) as a way to show those that are new and hear that term quickly realize they are ones with authority. I will also state as I had before this is a volenteered job *job* not a means for fun but a means to let others have more fun with those learning to rp or are experienced rpers.

this is why i say its a community responsible thing that will need a good portion of our shard to agree upon. the community will acknowledge they are giving small permissions to the appointed RP GM to responsibly act when somthing is taken to far, to offensive, or simply not even possible rp wise even and offer suggestions for the future to rp the action or decipher a reasonable cause for being able to do such.

[EnchantedOath]

I think Thicklesip makes some good points. While the idea sounds good overall, the actual outcome will likely have bad effect on the players that volunteer to take up the position.

the whole idea is not meant for them to rp jail the players, its meant to show them where we the community has decided to draw the red line of where going with rp goes way too far... the community will acknowledge they are giving small permissions to the appointed RP GM to responsibly act when somthing is taken to far, to offensive, or simply not even possible rp wise

For cases such as "taking something too far," or "something not even possible in RP," it's really up to whoever the person doing such actions is RPing with. They can comment on it, and if the person stops, that's just dandy. I really don't think situations like this need monitoring; it all depends on the opinion of the person or persons RPing together. If in a case they don't stop when asked, the person who asked them to stop could leave.

When coming down to terms of offense or open insult, one could always report the troublemaker if done repeatedly, which still I don't think would need another witness or "supervisor". The one insulted or offended could take a snapshot, and be done with it. This may also apply to RPing in crowded areas, if all in the area become upset with the troublesome RPer, they could report it as well, but only if the offending player refuses to stop.

Overall, I personally don't think it is a needed action or agreement. If someone wants to take on the responsibility to help out new players, then that's great, but even still they shouldn't need a title or have to supervise and correct people who they think are out of line. Perhaps an alternative to this idea would be a single public channel that would have players give each other advise on RPing, and members could suggest said channel to new players rather than being glued to their side 24-7 giving out suggestions. I think this would hold opportunity to all players rather than just appointing a select few. But anyway, this is all just my personal opinion.

[LungTien Temeraire]

I have pondered about it a bit, and yes, some of the players if they were elected may not be free or in the right mood to deal with other RPers about what is acceptable or too far... if such things happen in a moment they are tired, frustrated in general, and if the other RPer is more or less cooperative, the red line risks to be close...

[Veruliyam]

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages.

Stage Manager, instead of GM...

[Valareos]

I think that a "Council" would do better than a single person. You dont want to burn a person out. among the many issues already described.. here is one major one.


the "RP-GM" is on between 5 pm and 11:30 PM every day due to real life work.

During the hours, everyone is well behaved.. when the cat is away, the mice come out and play. Without a CONSTANT, and even anonymous presence, you will ahve people behaving one way when the gm is on and differently other times

So here is my recommendation.

the Devs create a guild, with the guild leader as one of the Devs. The Devs assign 5 or 6 officers to manage. This is the starting council. The members of this council are playing anonymous alts, and are not allowed to say who their other characters are. This allows officers to have an "off" time and play their other characters.

Those who wish to help in spreading the word on acceptable rp can make alts and apply for joining. You now have Officers, and members, who work towards whatever they decide is acceptable RP, and a single authoritive group for managing such, with Officers to make decisions where the members can not agree, and a dev to make a final decision IF something is escalated that high.

Anonymous and constant is what you meet your goals.

[Shian]

A council would be interesting Though I find your terminology confusing I am in support of such an idea.

[Steelclaw]

I think that a "Council" would do better than a single person.

Yeah, with only one person, that person will get burnt out quickly.

So here is my recommendation.

the Devs create a guild, with the guild leader as one of the Devs.

Whoa! That's going to cause drama of a different sort -- Accusations of favoritism. Suddenly everyone with good fortune becomes accused of getting favors from the gods. A few may even claim they have a relation with said developer and use that to gain status. The whole thing turns into a downward spiral of conspiracy theory that nobody, devs included, can disprove. This situation is arguably worse than the problem the council attempts to solve.

I think, to gain traction, even amongst other players, a reasonable proposal will need to leave out direct developer intervention and special powers. Requesting lore clarification (but not "Is [RP scenario] compliant with canonical lore?") here on the forum is one thing (and probably reasonable). Creating or supporting a guild of "elite" players is completely different.*


Fear not, though. The solution may be as simple as creating a list of people who are willing to work with, or coach those who look like they need help. When you find a player that looks like they could use some help with their RP, refer a person on that list to go contact the player.

It's easy to tell someone they're doing something wrong, but if the interaction stops there, there's no solution; only frustration. Those in error, or perceived to be in error, need a suggested course of action -- an alternative, or some help, so that they know how they can go about doing what they want to do in an acceptable manner.



* I can't approve or deny a proposed course of action, nor do I wish to imply that these proposals have been discussed or considered internally. I'm just trying to point this thread in a constructive direction, lest it veer off into a muddy ditch and end up locked.

[Akrion]

I agree with everything Steelclaw says here. Honestly I feel such a 'guild' would be rather detrimental to the already shaky stability of the shard. I'm in rather strong opposition to the idea of appointing "official people" to police RP, very little good will come of that.

[Starstilanxs]

I want to make a point specifically clear for everyone here:

Role-play is about creativity within an environment set up by the developers and the players within the universe that is being portrayed. There are many things that I disagree with in recent RP, but in all honesty... placing a barrier by using a regulation such as a 'guild' or an 'RP GM' is a horrible idea (sorry for being blunt).

You limit an RPer's creative freedom, you push them away from the game and that is that.

Now take this in perspective as an example here:
SOPA and PIPA were restraints on the internet. It placed 'stop signs' on the development and growth of creative freedom that it provided (Not specifically that, but that was included). They had backlash so massive, they lost 99% of the supporters garnered for the bills.

Doing this is placing a barrier on the community, where these 'GM's' or these 'Guild Members' would control it. How would that create an environment that people can enjoy?

Now, being one of those that spends their time in NT relaying very simple rules to people, I can say that I have had many problems with players being rude and disrespectful to the rules/breaking lore so severely that it makes me want to pull my hair out. However, even as I handle this with a forced smile, I -still- think such a thing as GM's and said guild policing is a bad idea.

Anyways, that's all I have to say on the matter. <3

[LungTien Temeraire]

Maybe should we ask in game to the shard's RPers to come on the forum and vote in a poll to elect RPers who'd put their candidacy here, and then we'd have a RP council, supported by the RP community? Maybe we'd have a new poll each month. Just suggesting ideas

As I have said many times in the pasts, I am sometimes in NT, on Order, and things very rarely get bad with new players as, before telling them about how we use to RP, and other things,..., I greet them politely, I welcome them in the game and don't just enter, for example, to type on the main channel, or in tells : "Use brackets. It is the rule.", "You can't RP such character in Istaria. It is out of lore." I understand if new players, welcomed this way, tend to get annoyed and to rudely reply.

The topic about greeting new players and make them feel welcome in the game and the community has already been discussed in other threads.

[Kaerisk]

(Disclaimer: The following contains memories of a time that few can remember, including the poster himself. The exact details of the events discussed may not be 100% accurate, and are quite likely to be biased, by faulty memory if nothing else. Please keep in mind that the poster does not necessarily condone nor apologize for the contents of that history and his actions within it.)



I want to support this idea, but there's really no way I can.

There are two ways in which to implement this idea, and neither would be particularly effective. The first is to take it at face value, have a council or whatever, and have them advise people on some better options for fitting into the lore and still having the magic sprinkles that drives their creativity. The problem with this is that no one likes it when you stick your fingers into their magic sprinkles. Ruins all the magic. The council itself opens itself up as a target in doing so, and is subsequently ostracized by the very people they were trying to help, leaving no problem solved and creating still more.

The second would be to have a lore nazi with actual power. That is to say, GM power. But this too is a recipe for failure. If people dislike it when you stick your fingers in their sprinkles, they're going to take their sprinkles and go home if you forcibly chuck them out the door.


Now, I've been around for a very long time. I might be senile, but there was a 'golden age' for the RP here. That's not to say it was perfect - only that the line of acceptable was pretty well respected. In those days, dragons were still dragons, with scales instead of fur, or molten skin, or shadowy-glittery-vampire-whateverelses. To a few of you, that probably sounds pretty good. Honestly, it sounds pretty good to me.

But let's talk about how this was accomplished, and its ramifications.

This server-lore first came about from the community of dragons at large. Everyone within the community had an understanding about how dragons/other RP should be, and they stuck to it. If there came along - and of course there did - an outsider who created a glittery-shiny-not-kosher thing, they did what any small community after an apocalypse would do: they turned them away. Shunned them, refused to interact with them, and made the world as cold as death. Inevitably, when faced only with the reality of a difficult game system and no community to help them, those players came, and went.

I, and by extension, Mae, disliked this set up. Though I was one of the 'inner circle' so to speak, I sat in New Trismus at all hours of the day, helping young hatchlings learn the game, and learn how to interact through RP with other people. Quite literally, several players reported to me that Mae's friendly nuzzle was the first and only welcome they ever received in Istaria.

I was not the only one who felt this way of course, and others took more welcoming action as time passed. Many of the people I and others welcomed then began to equal the original server population. Eventually, that population hit a tipping point. Thus came the arrival of the Star Dragons, as Maekrux termed them. The best way of dealing with these strange dragons was to consider them from another realm, coming to Istaria.

In truth, and I'm not proud to admit this, it was an internal joke to myself. Star Dragons also wanted to be 'the star' - that is to say, of their own show. By making themselves so horrifically unique to stand out in a population of die-hard elder RPers, they ultimately killed off the population they were trying to set themselves apart from.

A few of the original population fell into cliques and disappeared from view, but eventually, even they completely abandoned what they felt to be a world utterly devoid of the talent and beauty it once had. Istaria had, in their eyes, become a playground for the aberrant and abnormal.

Istaria, or more specifically Order, never really died though. It kept on with the population it had gained, and the abnormal became the new normal. The Age of the Star Dragons, as our good historian Mae lamented it, had fully begun.

As the line of 'normal' altered to fit this Star Dragon sort of existence, the Star Dragons in turn, felt the need to keep creating stranger and stranger dragons. Some point not too long ago, that hit a tipping point as well, and the opposite reaction occurred: that the old normal became aberrant, and a push started towards that old-timey dragon of yore that only dragons as old as Mae can remember.

Could just be the primaries, but it all tastes of politics to me anyway. Swing one way, swing the other.


The first point of all this rambling is that, if any concerted effort is going to be made to change the state of things, it has to be community wide. People have to agree on a new baseline, and determine how far the line allows wiggle room. And the community has to accept that there will be some loss to this - people will disagree and form into their cliques, or they will leave. Either way, some factionalization will occur.

The second point is that the changes rarely happen consciously. Both the original population and the new population never actively or openly discussed what was or was not 'normal.' It simply came about through the interactions of the group being accepted or not accepted based on personal preference and rule of majority.

The final point is that there is a tipping point, consciously or unconsciously. That these threads are surfacing reflects a changing population dynamic. Simply put, there are a greater number of players who want the more traditional dragon/rp world that Istaria used to be, rather than Star Dragon anything-goes ethic.

Whether or not any changes truly occur, or whether there will simply be more fracturing until one or the other breaks, remains to be seen, and the consequences of choosing or not choosing will not be apparent until I am writing a similar post in about 5-6 more years. Which, undoubtedly, I will. I hope that this has been informative, if not terribly helpful - unlike usual, I am not going to offer any helpful advice to anyone regarding this matter. If you can't tell from the story, I already blundered into this mess once before, and it ultimately did not end well for Mae.

... Also, I think with the completion of this post, I have earned an honorary BA in political science. Or cultural anthropology. Maybe one's a minor, but I'm not sure which one. Oh well - the more you know, the more you know you know not. ;p

[LOVWYRM]

Though I do not rp , I live on Order long enough to be concerned.

Such a measure will open Pandora`s Box.

[Valareos]

I want to support this idea, but there's really no way I can.

Intersting concept you bring up, and i must say matches perfectly everything that we have seen gone on (specifically people being horrified about my suggestion non-lore dragons do their rp on chaos, which one point in time was the norm)

Problem with any community wide effort is it never is. even if 85% of the community agree on a base line, you will lose the other 15%... and how long until different views start to fragment the situation again.

I agree as well, there is no good solution, no single stroke of genius that will fix this.

My idea perhaps is too controlling, but it would be one of the few ways to bring about what it seems the OP and general community are demanding. As a GM of many a table top game, you got to allow players to have their freedom. but, unless you want your players to walk all over you, you have to have some limitations in place.

Istaria can be seen as similar. You need to have a happy medium between what players can do, and what players want to do.

and even among you who want to go back to 'glory days', ive seen at least 10 different views on what those glory days were! Seems to me, each individuals glory days is what it was at that time they joined that made them stay, which itself has changed. If you were to fully switch the entire server to Lore based rp, you may just find in 4 more years Star Dragons reminising on the "Glory days" of the server when you could be what you want.

Perhaps a solution can be found by comparing this to how the old style chat rpgs like MSN chat and Oasiz has rooms that each have their own rules, own lore, and even their own timelines. Yet people visited each others rooms all the time, and though there characters dont change, different rooms had different rules on what was allowed.

Perhaps by pushing the idea that "Open" areas such as main chat, or non moderated chat channels should be Lore areas, ie.. what your character rps in those rooms are based off of lore, or creative where lore is lacking. Your character does NOT have to be lore, simply in these areas you dont rp anything that would be conflicting out of respect for the other players.

Individual guilds and member created rooms can have their own rules. Some may be Anything Goes rooms, some may be Lore rooms, and some may be based on their own set of Lore or society, such as a guild rping themselves as members of the town of South March, and their rp dealing with that and surrounding areas. (imagine a guild creating a history specifically for a certain town! I would LOVE to read that)

I think this idea would be more in line to what people are after.. areas where Lore is the rule, and other areas where players can play as they so wish.

Thoughts?

[LungTien Temeraire]

It looks like Rant about RP thread has moved here... I have already explained my opinion on this, about players' different views of what is fitting with lore if not in it, of what creative thing can be accepted, ... My thoughs still stand and I stop here, unwilling to derail thread.

Maekrux, everyone can do errors, and your intent was not to do bad things, so don't worry.

In those days, dragons were still dragons, with scales instead of fur, or molten skin, or shadowy-glittery-vampire-whateverelses.

You forgot dragons with mane, demons, griffin, tree-dragons, dragons possessed by Void spirits,...