Dragon Lairshaping Preview

[Deth]

You're forgetting Foraging too. And we're not getting +9 with our mastery. We're getting +8 with mining, quarrying and Essence harvesting (7+1). Perhaps most biped need to take 2 classes to get both, but they can. Dragon class are only the blacksmith of the biped. With the arrival of a new class, all Tulga did was create another blacksmith class. No possibility to improve all our other stats. When we'll reach level 100 in laircrafting, ALL our old skill will have remained unchanged. It should be time that we get something to raise our skill to the same level as any other race.

Change the mastery quests in gathering to give us +30 instead of +10, +20 instead of +10 in processing skill to cover the lacking IF you don't want to fix the low stats and won't give use balancing class.

Per http://horizons.gamersinfo.net/schools/for DragonCrafter for referance.
Skill Gained/Lvl Gemworking 8 Mining 7 Quarrying 7 Salvaging 7 Transmutation 8 Spellcraft 8 Essence Shaping 8 Essence Harvesting 7 Dragon Scalecraft 8 Smelting 8 Stoneworking 8 Ingenuity 10
Right we get 7+1 for harvesting skills. Miner/Gather gets 11 harvesting skills.3 more then us. Again what is the problem off this? They have a mindnumbling slow class that specializes in just learning how to gatherresources. Why should we get 11harvesting in a class that gives us all the gathering skill of2 different Finishing classes?

With other classes if you look. Spell crafter skills.

Skill Gained/Lvl Quarrying 8 Sculpting 10 Spellcraft 10 Essence Shaping 9 Essence Harvesting 8 Armor Use 7 Stoneworking 9 Ingenuity 10
Essence shapping they get 9 we get 8+quest 1.
Essence Harvestingthem 8 us 7+quest 1.
Quarrying Them 8 Us 7+ Quest 1.
StoneworkingThem 8 Us 7. (quest on the way for 7+1).
Then you would have to take a complete different class to add in Metal skills.
That again once we get the last 2 quest lines in for stoneworking and smelting would give us the same skill levels as a Biped in two different classes. Also just as other advanced construction classes they get the same processing skills as the other advanced production classes and 10 in the Applying skill, which Lairshapers have.

The ONLY skill that we are getting gimped on is Scalecraft. That should be the final production skill of a Dragon crafter that should be 10 total so as we have the quest it should be set up to base 9. As that is a dragon only school and would not infringe on another classes skill slike Spellcraft would if that was also set up and having of a fight between scholars, spellcrafters and Dragoncrafters as is. Otherwise Why should one class be able to gain equal or More skills then 2 other classes with the time and effort of 1? I mean 7 extra quest quest every 10 levelsdo not equal another 100 levels in another class.

And? So total useless imbalance is better than some balance skills? +5 is totally useless. All you need is have 2 level over adventurer to be totally over it. What's the reason to raise crafting over adventure other than unlocking scale slot (the latest still being completly ridiculous). None. Raise any other crafting class to 60 firsts, and you'll se the difference in adventuring. You can't do the same with dragon craftings schoolS at all.

And screw the biped. They're already screamed over with ancient power and ancient size. When they start playing a dragon, then they may scream. Or should we start screaming over unlimited multiclassing where we don't have any way to balance things up?

I do not know who the stat bonus works. If you say that the adventure over writes it OK. I always thought that they were two separate figures that stacked and that you got an adventure side bonus and a crafter side bonus. As I said in my second post now that they have a new craft class and one on the way in the future some time. Go ahead and set them up with different stat bonus. But as I am know as knowledgeable on the stat bonus thing I will leave it alone and let others fight this fight.

Edit: Pharcellus I did not notice the higher Str on the finishing classes Thank you for pointing that out. I can see your point on the fact that they have a gathering classes that have higher but no finishing skills. I could see the point of adding a dragon gathering class. But do not see the point of adding it to a class like Dragon Crafter or Lair Crafter. I think, and hence my arguments, is that these to finishing classes are balanced as and with the Biped Class. If more gathering refining skill is wanted then it needs to be a new class. Not added to our current and up coming finishing classes.
[img]/Web/Utility/1x1.gif[/img]

[Dragoniade]

Per http://horizons.gamersinfo.net/schools/for DragonCrafter for referance.

Right we get 7+1 for harvesting skills. Miner/Gather gets 11 harvesting skills.3 more then us. Again what is the problem off this? They have a mindnumbling slow class that specializes in just learning how to gatherresources. Why should we get 11harvesting in a class that gives us all the gathering skill of2 different Finishing classes?

With other classes if you look. Spell crafter skills.

Essence shapping they get 9 we get 8+quest 1.
Essence Harvestingthem 8 us 7+quest 1.
Quarrying Them 8 Us 7+ Quest 1.
StoneworkingThem 8 Us 7. (quest on the way for 7+1).
Then you would have to take a complete different class to add in Metal skills.
That again once we get the last 2 quest lines in for stoneworking and smelting would give us the same skill levels as a Biped in two different classes. Also just as other advanced construction classes they get the same processing skills as the other advanced production classes and 10 in the Applying skill, which Lairshapers have.

The ONLY skill that we are getting gimped on is Scalecraft. That should be the final production skill of a Dragon crafter that should be 10 total so as we have the quest it should be set up to base 9. As that is a dragon only school and would not infringe on another classes skill slike Spellcraft would if that was also set up and having of a fight between scholars, spellcrafters and Dragoncrafters as is. Otherwise Why should one class be able to gain equal or More skills then 2 other classes with the time and effort of 1? I mean 7 extra quest quest every 10 levelsdo not equal another 100 levels in another class.

I do not know who the stat bonus works. If you say that the adventure over writes it OK. I always thought that they were two separate figures that stacked and that you got an adventure side bonus and a crafter side bonus. As I said in my second post now that they have a new craft class and one on the way in the future some time. Go ahead and set them up with different stat bonus. But as I am know as knowledgeable on the stat bonus thing I will leave it alone and let others fight this fight.

Edit: Pharcellus I did not notice the higher Str on the finishing classes Thank you for pointing that out. I can see your point on the fact that they have a gathering classes that have higher but no finishing skills. I could see the point of adding a dragon gathering class. But do not see the point of adding it to a class like Dragon Crafter or Lair Crafter. I think, and hence my arguments, is that these to finishing classes are balanced as and with the Biped Class. If more gathering refining skill is wanted then it needs to be a new class. Not added to our current and up coming finishing classes.
[img]/Web/Utility/1x1.gif[/img]

I think Pharcellus did answer for me on that one. The major issue is that biped CAN and WILL take the class that allow them to increase their harvesting and processing skills to the top. We can't.

I said, raise our stats and skill,s or give use the mean to do so. Biped can raise another class. Now, with Lairshapper, we can, but the second school is a plain clone of the first one. In the end, except giving another skill, it won't increase us.

I don't want free skill increase. I want to earn it. But for that, It has to be put in game in a way, shall it be another harvesting/processing schools or more quests, like a parallel set of quests for lairshapping school, or a quest every 5 levels instead of 10.

If there's a solution to the '11 points per levels' that will give us the same raise, moving us away once and for all from being inferior to biped, then I will take it.

Right now, it isn't.

[Pharcellus]

Edit: Pharcellus I did not notice the higher Str on the finishing classes Thank you for pointing that out. I can see your point on the fact that they have a gathering classes that have higher but no finishing skills. I could see the point of adding a dragon gathering class. But do not see the point of adding it to a class like Dragon Crafter or Lair Crafter. I think, and hence my arguments, is that these to finishing classes are balanced as and with the Biped Class. If more gathering refining skill is wanted then it needs to be a new class. Not added to our current and up coming finishing classes.

You'll note that nowhere have I said that we must be "given" biped equivalence for free. I have specifically stated several times in this thread, make us work for it, but give us a WAY to do it. Open the path. I don't care how long the journey is. I've ground through 19 Craft classes on my biped well into T5. The work isn't daunting to me. What IS daunting is the IMPENETRABLE Adamantium wall in the shitty game system.

I repeat, I don't CARE what form the equivalence effort takes, I simply want it to exist. I want the opportunity. I want the SECOND-CLASS nature of Dragons to finally and unequivocably END. Period. Two years has been enough time to work this problem out. It's time to fix it once and for all.

[PJ]

Wanting equal opportunity for skill gains is all well and good. But its sorta irrelavent to the discussion of the Lairshaper school. Its fine if you think Dragons should have similar opportunities in some shape or form. But the lack of those opportunities are not flaws in the Lairshaper school.

As its stands the Lairshaper school parallels biped construction school in almost all respects, except that instead of getting 8 gathering, 9 processing they get 7, and 8 with +1 to each due to quests (stoneworking/smelting/crystalshaping coming soon). Which is both a slight detriment, uneven skill gains, and slight extra effort. And a benefit, the quest bonus is to current, not base, leading to higher exp earned.

[Deth]

Maybe I miss understood what and how you guys was asking, which is nothing unusal for me /9->, but I agree and understand your desire for the ability to be as good as a biped. But as PJ said this might not have been the best thread to bring up the agrument. As to me it seemed you wanted more power in this or our other class. Starting a new thread about a new Dragon gather class would be a better way to bring yoru point across.

As to the Stat increase I see your point and whole heartly agree if they do not both stack , from adventure side and Crafter Side, then yes the Lair Crafter should be looked at and some form of higher stat bonus should be brought in. It will help the melee dragons out more I think as the few construction classes I looked at all got 9 or 10 str. But I would not turn down the little bit of extra damage I would get when I did have to use my silver strike, Tail whip and such.

[Pharcellus]

Here, let's do some math...

700 Base Harvesting skill
+100 for Harvesting X Quest
+250 for full scale set with Harvesting V + claw with stat techs
+89 for base stats
+61 for all possible buffs
=1200 Harvesting

T6 requires 1200 skill MINIMUM to harvest anything significant.

Thus, we can BARELY even HARVEST T6, at MAX. We're talking 1 every strike, with an occasional bonus (assuming the nodes give bonuses). It also means we have to have biped buffs cast on us at regular intervals to even be able to dig.

edit: removed the skill bonus from the Dragon claw, but it still can contribute to bonus from stats.

Additional note: Since I rarely use them, I forgot to include Reaping potions in the mix. Their MANDATORY use will make Harvesting bearable. However, it still doesn't address the skill disparity for harvesting, nor does it address the inefficiencies in refining.

[Deth]

OK so I have to use a reaping potion like every other non-miner/gather out there. I understand that may not be the best option for some, but for me it works fine. I understand the desire to be equal and do not disagree with it. I just disagree that we should get more in the classes we have.

I just hope that a crystal reaping potion gets added to the alchemist, as I do not see us getting the ability to create them. Otherwise that is about the only skill that we will be truly hurt on and even then it might be hard getting them unless you have a pet alchemist that you cangive the resources to make them, as I assume they would have to come from us for them.

[Lumineux]

Malta you're forgeting dragon harvesting is based on our skill/tools. We can harvest tier 6 as soon as we hit 100 crafter. Now, doing anything with it, that's where we run into barely making the cut.

[PJ]

Well, there's some point there in that if you have the gathering VI ability, you can gather the resource. But if you're under 1200 gathering skill, you'll fail to gather resources on some % of your swings. But nevertheless you're in the same boat as every Fitter/Mason/Weaver/Carpenter/Enchanter, in that respect.

[Pharcellus]

No, I didn't forget. I have actually harvested travertine and adamantium (from Umyarr when he was a resource node). Lots of 0s and 1s. Try it sometime.

[Tympest]

Just a couple random things I want to point out...

Deth, adventurer and crafting stat gains do not stack, you get whichever one is higher. The 5 stats per level from dragon crafter and lairshaper might as well be 0, you'd only see them if your crafting level was significantly higher than your adventure level.

Malt, I'm not sure how you get +270 skill from crafting techs. You can't put craft techs on a claw and 10 scales x 20 for T5 techs is 200.

Deth, since lairshaper doesn't get any new harvesting skills I bet crystals will be dug up using the quarry skill, or perhaps mining. Either way we can use the existing stone or metal reaping potions.

A new dragon miner class would be wonderful. Something with 10 or 11 to harvesting skills and 10 to processing skills (after quests). :)

[Lumineux]

I have tried it, and I know of the 0's you will get. I only said that because you said minimum of 1200 skill to harvest at all, which isnt technicaly true.

[Pharcellus]

Wanting equal opportunity for skill gains is all well and good. But its sorta irrelavent to the discussion of the Lairshaper school. Its fine if you think Dragons should have similar opportunities in some shape or form. But the lack of those opportunities are not flaws in the Lairshaper school.

I heartily disagree on the point that it is relevant because if it is all we get, it will not be sufficient. Just as the existing Dragon Adventurer and Dragon Crafter schools are similarly flawed.

Yes, the Lairshaper school as presented is in theory a good, comparable school, for bipeds. For Dragons, if it is the only thing we are going to get (and it is), it won't be sufficient.

[Pharcellus]

Malt, I'm not sure how you get +270 skill from crafting techs. You can't put craft techs on a claw and 10 scales x 20 for T5 techs is 200.

Most often, you make craft scales on the kind of base scale that most benefits the skill techs on it. Thus, the stat bonues from the scale alone push the skill above 200 for 10 scales.

As for the claw, I had not tried making a craft claw, but was told recently that it did. I verified that no, it does not, and have adjusted my calculations accordingly.

I have tried it, and I know of the 0's you will get. I only said that because you said minimum of 1200 skill to harvest at all, which isnt technicaly true.

Very well, I adjusted the wording of the post to reflect your nit.

[imported_Robins]

Here, let's do some math...
T6 requires 1200 skill MINIMUM to harvest anything significant.

Thus, we can BARELY even HARVEST T6, at MAX. We're talking 1 every strike, with an occasional bonus (assuming the nodes give bonuses). It also means we have to have biped buffs cast on us at regular intervals to even be able to dig.

How did you come up with 1200 harvesting skill as the minimum to gather 1 per strike? I've gatherer 1 per swing at the following or lower skill per Tier:

Tier 1=7
Tier 2=200
Tier 3=400
Tier 4=600
Tier 5=800

So wouldn't Tier 6=1000 to gatherer 1 per swing and 1200 combined with a Tier 5 reaping potion be more then enough skill?

As a Bipedat Lv80(x8)=640base inall construction classes(5), Inever had trouble gathering Tier 5 resources. So tier 6 must be 1000 skill or less not 1200.

[dorrin]

(edit)
i wrote:
> there, finally caught up with the posts again. yes, robins is right.. 1000 skill.
> 1200 would get you just under 2/3, which of course would mean we're still 4:1 not
> 3:1, (if we're talking refining skill) .. so .. yeah. ick.
... wow. i finally found the thread about the new event on blight.
i was wrong on the above, entirely. i didn't realise they had the new master resource forms out on blight.
min - 1200
opt - 1600
holy ouch.
for those wanting to take a look, the thread is in general.
(/edit)

not exactly sure how to weigh in on this.. i guess "dragon miner/gatherer" class does seem like a good idea.
the only thing i saw previously was the +5 to stats, which, as tympest pointed out, may as well be 0.
.. but yes, not having the option to even approach decent skill is annoying at best. we _are_ forgetting t6 crafted items in the future, but... well... yeah. that's in the future, and doesn't help us now. that would add another 40 to skill from scale techs (assuming t6 techs will be +24 craft skill) and whatever 100 extra attribute points will get for the base stat, and 50 for the secondary tech, if used (assuming +60 base, +30 stat tech).
promote vitality VI, determination/primal roar .. etc...

.. nevermind, i'm rambling.

now that dragons are finally gaining options for multiclassing.. yes -- dragon miner class.

[Freak]

Any word on when we might see this on blight. I amexcitied to finally have something to do.

[Deth]

Posted by Amon on the other boards.


Date Posted:10/7 7:23amSubject: RE: Dragon Lairshaping and Lairs Preview Actually some of it will be available for testing with tbe next database patch to blight.

-----signature----- Jason Murdick
Designer / Programmer
Tulga Games, LLC
Julius Caesar: "Iacta alea est"

[Theolaerynn]

Which other boards?

[Deth]

The Vault Boards. Amon has started posting a little on those boards now. Still very slow and bitter and heavly modded. I got the slap down for the DB no year comment. May get slapped down here for it too but oh well.