Transmutation Formulas

[Senkeleron Fell]

Something really needs to be done about the transmutation formulas. As they are currently they are pretty silly. What alchemist is going to take 10 bronze bars (and a tainted orb) just to make 1 iron bar? That is at optimum. What other craft can take 30c worth of materials (just the bars, not sure what tainted orbs sell for at the pawn broker) and make something worth 6c?

I think either the amount of resources needed should drop drastically, or perhaps the output should skip a tier (bronze to make steel or gold, iron to make cobalt, steel to make mithril, etc) then it might be useful. At least make the value of the product more in line with the value of the ingredients.

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

Unfortunately, transmutation has no other use but to bridge tier gaps where refinement is not possible. It was only useful before when T5 hadn't been fully implimented. It is only useful now because T6 isn't fully implimented. Once T6 refinement gets put in transmutation will again have no use except to become an emergency measure.

It would be really nice if there were formulae added for transmutation that the output would be a completely unique component to be used in other things.

Maybe say, for tier 1 metal, the transmuter would take X amount of bronze bars and X amount of orbs to produce 2 or 3 Elusium bars (random name) which could be used in a recipe to make a specific type of armor, jewelry, weapon, scale or just something.

Maybe it could be a way of taking lower tier technique components and altering them to become comps of a higher tier? I know this would definately give transmutation a use as it would give players an alternative to the Vielo and monsters to obtain really hard to get components. Of course, this still wouldn't be a cheap means of doing so as it should take the same number of comps as it takes for resources now if not a bit more.

Just a couple more ideas to throw into the pot.

[Varangaard]

I've been wondering about this before. Once the T6 resource forms are live, transmutation will be almost obsolete except as last emergancy measure. I like the idea of it being used to create more exotic materials, for exotic equiment.

There's a small problem in this however. The guiding design philosophy in most craft classes clearly dictates self-sufficiency. A school is able to craft everything they need by themselves, all tools, all resources, and all products. Although craft multiclassing is unlimited, there is no interdependency between almost any of the classes (as I've heard, tinkerer doesn't get all the skills required to create finished products). Giving an armorer an exotic armor form would make them dependent on a class that learns transmutation.

I find this philosophy a little bit curious myself; unlimited, yet independent crafting. There's some inherent inflexibility in this approach, as odd as it sounds. Hand wraps are listed as armor instead of weapons because weaponcrafter self-sufficiency dictates leather products are a big no-no. Then again, this philosophy is broken by round shields. They require wood boards which are not something either an outfitter or an armorcrafter can produce by themselves. And lets not go into dragons wishing to create weapon crystal slots to their claws...

Incidentally, I would be in favor of greater interdependency between craft classes, as I see the current self-sufficiency idea limiting the possibilities of new products to the craft schools.

edit: Ah, and before somebody manages to say, 'yeah that'd suit you as dragons learn all in one school', my alt is 86 outfitter, 70 blacksmith, 50 jeweller. If I was actually secretly disliking the idea, I'd be shooting myself in the foot.

[Tzael]

I've been of the opinion for quite a long time that the amount of the main resource required at max efficiency when transmuting should be halved, for example making an iron bar should require 5 bronze bars and 1 dim orb, instead of 10 and 1 respectively as it is now.

[Valornyx]

And lets not go into dragons wishing to create weapon crystal slots to their claws...

True that we can't gather this - but nearly treant you smack will drop a log or two - not a big deal IMO ..

Except for some of the significant dragon quests - the only thing we really depend on bipeds for are cargo disks - and there is some talk of making "dragon cargo disks".

[imported_tjl]

forget about fixing it... they should just remove transmutation. it will have no real purpose soon, and to invent a new purpose for it would just be wasting time I think.

other than horribly and inefficiently making the next tier of resources, it has no use. the goods you make do not sell, and the xp you gain is paltry when compared to other forms of leveling. (speaking as an enchanter here)

I have played enchanter as my active craft class since I started it a few weeks after release... long long ago. I have used transmutation TWICE. making mithril bars for a good friend, for some swords, and currently assisting the guild in making some t6 stuff for construction.

While they are at it, they can pretty much get rid of enchanting too. Other than purified orbs, it also has no purpose. I have NEVER used it for anything other than purifing orbs for leveling. since almost all blighted resources do not exist, that makes the whole enchanting line of formulas trash. And if there did exist blighted resources... its still trash because the xp for cleansing is awful. (also speaking as enchanter here, alch may need enchanting for other stuff?)

Enchanters need a whole new skill line. Call it enhancements or something. Now that they have dye kits that you can drop on a weapon to change it... can they make kits that add stats, grant neat procs etc? (not permanent however)

Basically what they did with the blighted drops, they should have done with the enchanter.

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

Purified orbs have their uses. They're required for some types of alchemical potions.

Enchanter in general will hopefully get some <3 soon. The transmutation and enchanting skills don't need to be removed, they just need some new forms that take advantage of the skill to make new nifty things. With some of the new items that have been hinted at there might be a use for enchanting and transmutation after tier VI resources come in. Right now the skills just feel unfinished. Since there are no essence tools, enchanters lack a secondary product like tools for the other craft schools.

[Senkeleron Fell]

I've been wondering about this before. Once the T6 resource forms are live, transmutation will be almost obsolete except as last emergancy measure. I like the idea of it being used to create more exotic materials, for exotic equiment.

There's a small problem in this however. The guiding design philosophy in most craft classes clearly dictates self-sufficiency. A school is able to craft everything they need by themselves, all tools, all resources, and all products. Although craft multiclassing is unlimited, there is no interdependency between almost any of the classes (as I've heard, tinkerer doesn't get all the skills required to create finished products). Giving an armorer an exotic armor form would make them dependent on a class that learns transmutation.

I find this philosophy a little bit curious myself; unlimited, yet independent crafting. There's some inherent inflexibility in this approach, as odd as it sounds. Hand wraps are listed as armor instead of weapons because weaponcrafter self-sufficiency dictates leather products are a big no-no. Then again, this philosophy is broken by round shields. They require wood boards which are not something either an outfitter or an armorcrafter can produce by themselves. And lets not go into dragons wishing to create weapon crystal slots to their claws...

Incidentally, I would be in favor of greater interdependency between craft classes, as I see the current self-sufficiency idea limiting the possibilities of new products to the craft schools.

edit: Ah, and before somebody manages to say, 'yeah that'd suit you as dragons learn all in one school', my alt is 86 outfitter, 70 blacksmith, 50 jeweller. If I was actually secretly disliking the idea, I'd be shooting myself in the foot.

Actually, I can't think of a single class that is self-sufficient. Any class that creates magical items requires orbs, yet very few classes get the skills to make them. Alchemists require all sorts of items that they do not get the skills to make, to make potions. Spellcrafting is about the only place where everything you need to make is provided by the class. And even there youend upusing tools created by another class. Same with Confectioner. So every class is dependant at one time or another on some other class, but of course we have the ability to cross class to get those.

[Varangaard]

I didn't intend to cover teching there, but it is true that essence is essen-tial to that activity. There's six classes that can do orbs for you. Also, I need to go back on the tool statement, as I noticed eralier I've been rather too used to the convenience of being a high-level blacksmith. A significant portion of schools cannot make all of their own tools.

However, essence and tools as the only two major interdependencies doesn't sound a lot. I'm not saying that existing forms should be retrofixed for dependencies. I'm saying there should be new stuff that is, and offers some advantages for the crafter's trouble of going multiclassed or contacting another crafter for the resources. Round shields are a good example; outfitter/armorcrafter needs to get wood boards for those, but the shield has +5 per tier to life or slash/pierce/crush resist - dependant on shield - as a reward without using up any tech slots. Let's see some composite armor and weapons next, like cloth for that padding normally worn under plate armor, leather and metal for a studded leather armor, leather and gems for sword hilts and adornments, strings for bows, metal arrowheads, etc etc etc.

[Pharcellus]

True that we can't gather this - but nearly treant you smack will drop a log or two - not a big deal IMO ..

..except that the Weapon Socket formula requires boards, not logs. You still need a biped to make boards out of those looted logs.

[Pharcellus]

Actually, I can't think of a single class that is self-sufficient.

If you discount tools, Confectioner is self-sufficient (at the moment). They can gather and make everything they need. Spellcrafter/Scholar is self-sufficient. Gatherer/Miner are decidedly self-sufficient. Technically most crafting classes are self-sufficient, if you discount the special case of techs on items (not only because of the orbs, but because of the rare comps, which require adventuring or purchase).

Alchemists require all sorts of items that they do not get the skills to make, to make potions.

Tinker and Alchemist are two of the more prominent exceptions, though Tinker is probably the most dependent class overall. The only things that elude an Alchemist are Purified Orbs (for Tensile Suspensions), and tools for Reaping Potions. Oh, and Chroma now for Dye Kits.

[Senkeleron Fell]

Ok, I agree, if you discount everything a class needs that it cannot make, it is by definition self sufficient :-)

[Pharcellus]

Well, if you consider tech comps, NO craft class can "make" them. [;)]

I wasn't disgreeing so much as detailing.

[Guaran]

Someone said Enchanting was a worthless school. Isn't an Enchanter what creates and applies Essence Construction Spheres and Sources?

[Pharcellus]

Yup. It is one of the five Construction schools.

Problem is that quite a few popular structures don't require Weaving or Essence, so it often gets left out in the cold when considered.

It also doesn't have a lot of useful products outside of Essence Structuring; Transmutation and Enchanting don't provide a lot of use, being basically refining skills.

[Jayne]

Yes, I believe so. Seems important to me :(

Jayne

[Guaran]

The banner's require enchanting as well I think, to create the final banners from the parts.

[Pharcellus]

Yeah, but no one's bothered to make many of those in a long time because of the consumed component problem. That, and they aren't all that useful for the effort.

[Senkeleron Fell]

I wasn't actually looking to remake the whole transmutation skill, or add formulas (although that might be nice) I just think they should adjust the current formulas to make them more in line with other formulas. There are not many formulas that you can use where the output is worth less (monitarily) than the input. Seems that lowering the required resources or increasing the output wouldn't hurt.

[Pharcellus]

True. Though, I tend to think that Transmutation was meant to be a special case, reflecting the difficulties of transmuting things in other Lore.

Personally, I think that it should take like 2 of the substance resources, and like 5 of the essence ones, at optimal. Maybe it should all be from tainted essence, too, representing the "transmutation of life to death". I do think the ratio of 10:1 is a little high, but then I would, being a player staring at doing transmutation for 11 Expert Shops. [:P]