Lair Plans: I'll show you mine if you show me yours! Or... How do I do this?!

[Dragoniade]

Well Dragonaide the answer is quite simple, since a dragon can build his own lair they have watered down/made less effective and put as many obstacles as they could think of. Why else would 25% of our master and expert forms be withheld from us. Why else would it take 9 times the amount of materials, why else would they purposefully hide or put in the remotest areas possible our primary resources?
to be Dragon is to be shown the carrot then hit with the ultra-sized cattle prod.

To be a dragon also seem to be a race that have to fight to get something properly done.

[Goriax]

And why, even though they are called 'storage', they act like Silo?

Because they're NOT a silo perhaps? They're an undergroundchamberfor bulk storage and don't look anything remotely like any silo I ever saw.

Remember that Dragon are master of Dimensional pocket. Why wouldn't our storage follow the same lore, that was propagated ever since we hit level 10?

Because game mechanics trump lore every time. If they decide that for reasons of mechanics dragon storage areas have to act this way, arguments based on lore are totally missing the point. If dragons spent the time to try to understand WHY they did it this way they might be able to construct argumentsfor changing it.

And I don't want anyone to tell me or the other wanting better silos, to build more halls. An hall come far behind in term of capacity per surface/volume. The advantage of an hall are stacking capability.

I've never seen anyone say to make halls instead of silos/storage areas. I don't know where you got that from. However, halls DO offer their own advantages and being able to place many halls and lairs in a single plot do offer some advantages. While you can't hold as much raw bulk, you can sure hold a lot more odds and ends. This is a case of different strengths. Dragons may not be able to hold as much raw bulk, but they can hold a huge number of little things. Plus be able to place all the expert level workshops dragons care abouton just about any lair plot out there. Plus easily make room for a vault (which is that huge honking THING for bipeds which dominates any plot it's placed upon whereas the dragon version is this nice little chamber which can be easily tucked into an odd corner).

Dragon lairs have different strengths and weaknesses. Bulk storage is a weakness. Being able to place so many different kinds of chambers on any ordinary run of the mill plot with room left over is a strength.

As I said, we're not exactly hurting.

[Dragoniade]

Because they're NOT a silo perhaps? They're an underground chamber for bulk storage and don't look anything remotely like any silo I ever saw.

Sorry, but when something smell like an orange, taste like an orange, feel like an orange, it is an orange.
When storage building can carry exactly 20'000 bulk, 1 stack and is the only single item you have, call it storage, call it Silo, call it Tier 1 silo, they're the same.

Only, dragon get the short hand by getting a bigger building without compensasion in storage.

Heck. When house got converted, their capacity got adjusted to compensate the footprint of each. Bigger house would get bigger bulk; smaller house, smaller bulk. They were storage building. Why "our" storage building should be any different? They did it for other races (take note, RACE this time, not BIPED), why would it be different for dragon, again??

Because game mechanics trump lore every time. If they decide that for reasons of mechanics dragon storage areas have to act this way, arguments based on lore are totally missing the point. If dragons spent the time to try to understand WHY they did it this way they might be able to construct arguments for changing it.

Then give me a good reason WHY they did it, unless to gimp dragon even more? We already gave our arguement to change it. I don't see any good arguement to keep it coming from you.

I've never seen anyone say to make halls instead of silos/storage areas. I don't know where you got that from. However, halls DO offer their own advantages and being able to place many halls and lairs in a single plot do offer some advantages. While you can't hold as much raw bulk, you can sure hold a lot more odds and ends. This is a case of different strengths. Dragons may not be able to hold as much raw bulk, but they can hold a huge number of little things. Plus be able to place all the expert level workshops dragons care about on just about any lair plot out there. Plus easily make room for a vault (which is that huge honking THING for bipeds which dominates any plot it's placed upon whereas the dragon version is this nice little chamber which can be easily tucked into an odd corner).

I wasn't pointing that reply at you, but to whoever that may use that argument.
And who care about stacks? Who decided that dragon should get stack, and biped would get bulk?
Sorry, but biped get BOTH choice. They can build plenty of tent, house and guild lair for plenty of stacks.
They can build plenty of BETTER silos for plenty of bulk.


And as far as I know, Beginner, Journeyman and Export Shop all got THE SAME FOOTPRINT. I've seen plots filled with every machine available to biped. I've seen other plot filled with what they wanted. Maybe they weren't all Export shop, but not everyone want to spend their time building all expert shops.

Dragon aren't favored there. Except for getting 10 level shop rather than 20 levels shop, we lose, again, in shop dimension. Higher tier shop take more space. Expert Shop take the same footprint as a beginner shop.


So Stop saying Lairs are way better than plots and that we get our benefit, when you definitly never built a plot at all.

Dragon lairs have different strengths and weaknesses. Bulk storage is a weakness. Being able to place so many different kinds of chambers on any ordinary run of the mill plot with room left over is a strength.

As I said, we're not exactly hurting.

Who is saying you represent every dragon? YOU may not be hurt by the bulk issue, others are. So please stop using WE when it's definitly YOU alone.

And again, I repeat, compare orage with orange. COmparing a normal lairs to one of those 1 building plot isn't real comparaison.

Try comparing a Lair to a NORMAL plot, a 60x60 plots, then rework your arguement.

I may as well compare a 96x96x96 plot to one of those 24x24 plots.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

She said that the patch will be pushed on the next delta, then on blight. So there's not really any ETA on when it will go live...

As for the bug, if you build ONE structure, you MUST close the planning window and not attempt to build a second room. If you do so, you'll end up with disconnected room, which will prevent you from adding or removing other rooms.

Is everyone else having this bug or only certain draggies effected? I don't really know many who have gotten past hte first chamber (or at least talked about it in dragon chat..lol), so I have no idea.

But I'm a little confused as to your last paragraph. I'm not buidling with my planner open, still working on the first chamber. Are you saying once that's done never open the planning window again? We've placed and "cemented to build" the entire level 0 now, so we won't have to open the planning window again until we start wanting to plan/cement (have a few plans but decided to wait on cementing them down) level 1?

I'm not sure why I'd need to open the planning window again to start building on the second chamber.

And so if the planner isn't even opened, can I build onto the 2nd chamber no problemos??

Just looking for clarification to avoid the bug you're having :).

Though as to MY Bug, the other night both Allon and myself had the chamber selection window properly display the first time we opened it - so maybe something got kicked...heh. And now I don't have the list start out with a complete list of nontiered chambers, before hitting the t1 chamber list.

So something got tweaked....

ooh yea and I forgot to add:

I put a number of silos in -- they actually make pretty chambers that you can walk into, so I can declare them to be rooms for RP purposes *grins* Has anyone used a dragon silo yet? Does it continue to look like an empty, crystal-lined room?

Aye Levity - I noticed this about the storage chambers as well and commented to Allon that they do kinda make great little hatchling nests, and even a cozy single adult nest within a larger hall or lair - or even a place to store a naka or two if they wish to live in the lair :). We are also declaring them rooms for RP purposes, as all hatchlings and dragons are welcome to make their home within ours, they can use them as they wish :).

I would imagine on your question - that they would continue to look like empty rooms no matter how full they got. Don't biped vaults or houses look this way on the inside regardless of how much of their storage you use?


As for our Cemented level 0 plans - we opened with a t2 Helian smelter (and takes some t1 to make as well so that's good for us to work up on :)) to have a lovely entrance with the waterfall and the glowy dustbunnies :), and then a spiral to level 1 off of that, and the rest we managed to fit *7* Helian storage chambers, which makes me happy as I wanted level 0 to be practical and "ugly" comparitively, to hide the "gems" of beauty and character ina dragon lair deep below :).

you know..wanted to keep on topic. So that's what we have going for level 0. The rest of the levels remain in the planning stage, though our teir 4 Helian Hall will be going on level 2 or 3, with the "master lairchamber" teir 4 Lunus Lair going on 4 or 5 to start.

[imported_Lycaunoss]

She said that the patch will be pushed on the next delta, then on blight. So there's not really any ETA on when it will go live...

As for the bug, if you build ONE structure, you MUST close the planning window and not attempt to build a second room. If you do so, you'll end up with disconnected room, which will prevent you from adding or removing other rooms.


Is everyone else having this bug or only certain draggies effected? I don't really know many who have gotten past hte first chamber (or at least talked about it in dragon chat..lol), so I have no idea.

But I'm a little confused as to your last paragraph. I'm not buidling with my planner open, still working on the first chamber. Are you saying once that's done never open the planning window again? We've placed and "cemented to build" the entire level 0 now, so we won't have to open the planning window again until we start wanting to plan/cement (have a few plans but decided to wait on cementing them down) level 1?

I'm not sure why I'd need to open the planning window again to start building on the second chamber.

And so if the planner isn't even opened, can I build onto the 2nd chamber no problemos??

Just looking for clarification to avoid the bug you're having [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img].

Well I did what Dragonaide did (I think anyway) and I didn't encounter this bug. I saw the post right after I had done it and it had me sweating for a bit. I think just closing the planning window and opening it before you hit the build button might cause this not to happen.

[Goriax]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Goriax wrote:
Because they're NOT a silo perhaps? They're an underground chamber for bulk storage and don't look anything remotely like any silo I ever saw.


Sorry, but when something smell like an orange, taste like an orange, feel like an orange, it is an orange.

In the real world, a silo is a cylindrical structure used to hold stuff. Those lair storage areas sure don't look like cylindrical structures to me. Maybe they have the same FUNCTION as a silo but that doesn't make them a silo.

Then give me a good reason WHY they did it, unless to gimp dragon even more?

Why are you asking me? I don't know.Ask them. But my guess was that, since we can get so much OTHER stuff on our plots, there had to be SOME downside.

I wasn't pointing that reply at you, but to whoever that may use that argument.
And who care about stacks? Who decided that dragon should get stack, and biped would get bulk?
Sorry, but biped get BOTH choice. They can build plenty of tent, house and guild lair for plenty of stacks.
They can build plenty of BETTER silos for plenty of bulk.


And as far as I know, Beginner, Journeyman and Export Shop all got THE SAME FOOTPRINT. I've seen plots filled with every machine available to biped.

500 silver plots with 2 tier 5 guildhalls a couple tier 5 houses, a vault, PLUS all the shops? Not a guild plot. Just a standard every day half gold plot. I don't think so. Which is the crux of the whole thing.

Who is saying you represent every dragon? YOU may not be hurt by the bulk issue, others are. So please stop using WE when it's definitly YOU alone.

who is saying YOU represent every dragon? When I use "we" I'm referring to dragons which what I play.And yes, *we* are not hurting. Unless *we* want to turn our plots into little more then warehouses.

And again, I repeat, compare orage with orange. COmparing a normal lairs to one of those 1 building plot isn't real comparaison.

Try comparing a Lair to a NORMAL plot, a 60x60 plots, then rework your arguement.

I may as well compare a 96x96x96 plot to one of those 24x24 plots.

That's exactly what I've been doing. So put a vault, two tier 5 guildhouses, two tier 5 houses, plus all the workshops on a standard 60x60 500 sp plot. Which is what any dragon can do.

Lairs are definately lacking in bulk storage, but they have their compensations. You may choose to ignore those compensations but they're there.

[Dragoniade]

In the real world, a silo is a cylindrical structure used to hold stuff. Those lair storage areas sure don't look like cylindrical structures to me. Maybe they have the same FUNCTION as a silo but that doesn't make them a silo.

Where do you live? In my real world, Silos come in cylindrical, but also come tall, cubic shape too, depending who make them. But to the city slicker, it's only a tall, cylindrical structure.

500 silver plots with 2 tier 5 guildhalls a couple tier 5 houses, a vault, PLUS all the shops? Not a guild plot. Just a standard every day half gold plot. I don't think so. Which is the crux of the whole thing.

That's exactly what I've been doing. So put a vault, two tier 5 guildhouses, two tier 5 houses, plus all the workshops on a standard 60x60 500 sp plot. Which is what any dragon can do.

So, all lair should look the same? All cloned to each other? Everyone should follow YOUR idea of a lair because YOU only offer ONE solution? Sorry to break your bubble, but you can only build 1 tier 5 hall, unless you go betray your allegiance and build a Lunus and an Helian hall. And 2 hall will never beat silo. About 10 tier 5 silo would beat the bulk of that pitiful planning. With a lot less room taken. Saying that you can put 2 hall isn't halfway comparable to put the same in silo.

Some people want bulk, some people want stack. That solution is only good for stack, and only stack. Stop thinking adventurer only and start thinking crafter.

Also, like a lot have said, comparing price is no longer a valid comparaison. price took a drop. And plot's price decreased too. Have a look at the grandfather plot, and you'll see plenty of good space to build your stuff too.

Lairs are definately lacking in bulk storage, but they have their compensations. You may choose to ignore those compensations but they're there.

Once again, name those compensation. So far, you only named two tier 5 lairs, which is far from compensating the lost bulk.

[Dragoniade]

Well I did what Dragonaide did (I think anyway) and I didn't encounter this bug. I saw the post right after I had done it and it had me sweating for a bit. I think just closing the planning window and opening it before you hit the build button might cause this not to happen.

After that my lair got fixed, I got the bug again (though I'm not forcing my luck).
That second time it happened, I just applied 1 3 way and was starting to put a silo.
Once I clicked on "build". The counter started to roll, but when you usually get a small flash at 7 seconds and the building change color, it didn't. When the counter reached zero, the building was still white, still in the planning list, but added to the construction list too.

But after that moment, I wasn unable to delete that silo.

Maybe it's lag related.Or maybe accidentally double clicking on the built button (bad Windows habit). But it's not a 100% accurate way.

And for some reason, after about 2 hours, those built room dissapeared from the planning list and were buildable... except I had a silo and a 3way room on the same level and same spot.

My guess is there's some lag in the database, and if you happen to be building a room at that time, it won't be registered until way later.

[imported_Rhyssa]

A Tier 6 lair silo is 9 time less effective than a plot silo. That a lot for no real reason than make dragon 'different'. I don't mind different, but 9 times less stuff is ridiculous.

Effectiveness means how well something works. Since storage in lairs is exactly the same per tier as silos on plots, then both are equally as effective as each other.

But, BUT,... Making silo, not 3/4, not half, but NINE time smaller than other is plain WRONG.

I can't tell the height of silos on plots, but I'm sure there isn't a dragon in Istaria who would actually like plot silos to be made the same height as lair silos - imagine what it would do to flight paths!

And why, even though they are called 'storage', they act like Silo? They got the same capacity as silo, but takes between 2 to 9 times more room. As being storage and taking more room, shouldn't they be allowing more stacks? Or more bulk?

"A Rose By Any Other Name" They act like silos because they are the dragon equivalent of silos. Just as lairs are the dragon equivalent of houses, and halls are the dragon equivalent of guildhouses.

Or something in that line. There's no reason to have Lair Silo to be 2 to 9 time lesser than plot silo

I think you mean 9 times larger, since lair silos are actually larger depth wise than plot silos. Maybe the actual figures don't make much sense, but the idea of them being taking up more space certainly does. Think about it - dragons dig down underground, bipeds build up into the air. Obviously a larger silo will need to be dug deeper than a smaller one. The same is true of plot silos, but since bipeds can't build anything else in the air above their plots, the silo height doesn't affect them. On the plus side, having to dig down all those extra levels to have a larger silos also means that dragons gain a lot more storage space. Even the strictest roleplaying lunus dragon with an average size lair can build a hall of every tier and still have space for shops, vault and lairs. Not even the largest plot on Istaria will fit a guildhouse of every tier, let alone have space left over for anything else.

[Dragoniade]

Effectiveness means how well something works. Since storage in lairs is exactly the same per tier as silos on plots, then both are equally as effective as each other.

Sorry, but english is only my second language. The proper word would be 'efficient' if you want to be picky on word.

Dragon storage goes from being half efficient at Tier 2 up to nine time less efficient at Tier 9.

I can't tell the height of silos on plots, but I'm sure there isn't a dragon in Istaria who would actually like plot silos to be made the same height as lair silos - imagine what it would do to flight paths!

Plot aren't limited to a 3rd dimension. Plot's building can be as tall as they can be, and it won't affect how many you can put, as long as they have the same footprint.

But with lair, the 3rd dimension is use. We don't get a 4th, illimited, dimension, unless, of course, someone introduce Dimensional Pocket into Dragons room. And even Tier 5 silos aren't that tall, maybe 2.5 time the height of a T1 Silo. But they still take the same 'buildable' space.

"A Rose By Any Other Name" They act like silos because they are the dragon equivalent of silos. Just as lairs are the dragon equivalent of houses, and halls are the dragon equivalent of guildhouses.

They didn't follow the principle of silos though. Such as, same size between parity of tier. People also seem to forget that, by player demand, the 'entrance' of silo got removed because it was making silo less 'effective'. A tiny door to access the content for a huge silo. Space was wasted making road inbetween silo, but they removed that. Somehow, it kind of remind me of our storage structure, without the fixes.

I think you mean 9 times larger, since lair silos are actually larger depth wise than plot silos. Maybe the actual figures don't make much sense, but the idea of them being taking up more space certainly does. Think about it - dragons dig down underground, bipeds build up into the air. Obviously a larger silo will need to be dug deeper than a smaller one. The same is true of plot silos, but since bipeds can't build anything else in the air above their plots, the silo height doesn't affect them. On the plus side, having to dig down all those extra levels to have a larger silos also means that dragons gain a lot more storage space. Even the strictest roleplaying lunus dragon with an average size lair can build a hall of every tier and still have space for shops, vault and lairs. Not even the largest plot on Istaria will fit a guildhouse of every tier, let alone have space left over for anything else.

I was refering to the volume. Plot use area, Lairs uses volumes. Biped build up in the air because they have unbounded sky. Dragon digs down, but don't have unbounded ground (even though I don't see why there should be one, except for technicality.

But don't forget, we get more room, because each building take more room. With the exception of house and GUild hall, plot structure have the same footprint no mater the tier. An expert shop doesn'T take 3 time the footprint of an beginner shop. Lair shops, however, do. Actually, every rooms in a lair grow exponentially: lair, halls, storage, workshop.

But regarding 'every' hall and machine, I wouldn't try to put all Tier 5 machines with all hall. However, taking the same number of expert (Essence, stone, metal, Crytstal and Gem) shops can be easily done on an average.
Placing Five tier 5 shops would kind of eat up most of your space, about 2 and an half, level, if you got a 5x5. 4 level if you have a 4x5 or lesser lairs

No. While lairs rooms are different, they don't even come close to a plot structure at higher tier.

Does it have to mean that dragon are limited to lower tier only?
Why should every lairs structure be taking more buildable space as tier goes up, while nearly all of the plot building have a fixed space no matter the tier?

[Steelclaw]

Whee! Zombie threads!

I thought I'd bump this thread since so many are getting an opportunity to try planning their lair for the first time and the information here may be helpful.

Note: The lairshaping resource chart has been moved to:
http://bristugo.com/node/757

Note 2: The example of my lair plan has been moved to:
http://bristugo.com/user-files/pool/...s-lair-2_2.jpg

Note 3: This thread may also be helpful:
http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=15491

So who has started planning their lair? I've found that a bit of graph paper and Tympest's diagrams to be a great help. (thanks for making that!)

Why paper first? It's easier to "erase" chambers, and you can lay them out in any order. The paper layout doesn't disappear when your CTD either.

From the looks of things, we'll need a collection of maps for everyone's lair at some point. Ugh. Already got lost in mine once.

Tympest's Lair Pieces:
http://community.istaria.com/Web/Sho...?PostID=109504

Graph Paper:
http://www.incompetech.com/beta/line...per/plain.html

My layout:
http://www.sanguine-embrace.net/rans...s-lair-2_2.jpg

[Favoran]

I used those resources to plan out my lair a while ago... Went through 6 different floor plans before I landed on the one I wanted. XD Excel really helps in planning things out.

[Guaran]

I think I have a nicely planned out lair. its ne from the pad in harmony on Chaos.

level 0 is 2 parts. first a slope which goes down to a t6 smelter chamber. second part is a loft with 4 silos and a vault, which you get to from a spiral going up from the smelter room on level 1.

level 1 & 2 (t6 shops are 2 levels tall). the t6 smelter, t6 sholar/essence, t1 and a t2 library off the scholar shop (need books closeby), a t1 silo, mural. Spiral going down off the scholar shop to level 3.

level 3 & 4 T6 gemworking, t6 crystalshaper, t2 consignor, murals, soon to be a t6 transmutation chamber, top level of a T5 Hall spanning levels 3,4,5,6.

levels 5 & 6 t6 stoneworking off the bottom level of the hall. 2 t3 silos, t1 consignor. more murals.

probably going to add a t6 library or 2 for looks off an opening of the hall. unused bits of space may get a silo here or there.

[Soraii]

Holy Zombie Thread Ressurection, Batman!..

But guess I could go along with the title, instead of explaining my insane plan for harro...

http://home.earthlink.net/~parrot23/.../harroplan.zip it's a zipped .bmp file made in paint


Soraii

I am about half done with the t6.... X_X

[Malaquion]

I only have the first floor of my lair planned, but I successfully wasted no space at all! 8D

[Shian]

Your best bet is to plan the whole thing right off the bat instead of one by one.... by the time you get to your third level, you'll need to re-do your top level again because you'll end up finding that your cosigner will fit better on the second floor and a hall fits better on level one

I suppose I should re-post mine.

My lair in Winter's Peak boasts a ton of lairs, a couple halls for social events and a large public library on the next floor down. That a lot of storage....

The cosigner and machines are not activated because I like the look of the rooms.
(white arrows indicate pathway to get to lower floors, orange is down)


My T6 crafting lair in Back Bay.

Every T6 machine, a T6 lair for relative ease of navigation, a vault, a shrine, and both T6 pawnbrokers/cosigners.

[Favoran]

I've seen those PBs/Connies in your Back Bay lair, and I must say, whoever crafted those is quite skilled. >_>

[walkerglassmire]

The craft lair looks wonderful Shian. What are the chances, for all of us that don't recognize all the chambers by sight, we could get room labels on the map? Pretty Please!