Confectioner Preview - Feedback Thread

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

I don't know how possible that would be Guaran. The decrease in bulk and consignment listings would be nice, but I think the idea behind having series of meals intends for consumption of various patterns of things instead of just buying one lump meal and using it. Having a meal combined into one item would defeat the purpose of having appetizers/sides/main/desserts and remove the possibility of teching foods.

I do like the idea of maybe having one or two "meal" forms that take a large amount of resources to produce, but it seems to me a lot of work to just save people a few bulk of stackable items and simplify a system that is being fleshed out in excruciating detail.

[Alladania]

I understand that the ability to create ambrosia is being removed from confectioners as this is implemented.

Are you also removing existing ambrosia that has already been created?

Will essence of blight still exist?

Will essence of blight have any use?

Will soul fragments have any use (maybe that guy in Dalimond could get interested in them again)?

Will spirit oil have any use?

I hope that existing ambrosia wouldn't be arbitrarily removed. I can see players that have paid a lot of cash for a supply of ambrosia getting pretty upset at such a brazen theft - unless they were compensated for their cash outlay.

[Jayne]

I don't think ambrosia will be removed. I think one of the ingredients to make it will be removed. So anyone that still has the ingredients can make it. And nayone with ambrosia will be able to use it up. then one day it will be gone forever.

Just my opinion

Jayne

[ssylva]

Carrot Soup? Salad and Oil? Buttermilk Biscuits? I am sorry but this really REALLY doesnt sound like dragon fare to me... The lunus didnt get where they are by poking their head into a naka pub and chomping down potato chips...

I am really hoping that if they do this change that there will be a dragon option for confectioner, or at least some dragon version of a pub in dralk and that at least some of the foods be more dragon-oriented... (At least 3 different foods of each type per level)... I mean just because naka cant digest malachite gems on their cookies doesnt mean I shouldnt be able to.

[ssylva]

MMMMM... crunchy....

(that was supposed to be at the end of the message above but it isnt letting me edit it to add it).

[Dawnn Antonini]

I agree with Ssylva's post. Why can't dragons have their own version of Confectioner School? Why can't they have their own foods to make just like the bi-peds do? I can't picture a dragon sitting at a table in a bi-ped tavern sipping their latte and eating salad. Bleh!


[8-)]

[Barnaby Gump]

I agree with Ssylva's post. Why can't dragons have their own version of Confectioner School? Why can't they have their own foods to make just like the bi-peds do? I can't picture a dragon sitting at a table in a bi-ped tavern sipping their latte and eating salad. Bleh!

Maybe they can put in tinkering forms so that ornicopters can be made and bi-peds can fly as well. I still fail to see why all the races should have the exact same abilities. There is absolutely no reason why a dragon in khutit form would look out of place in a tavern whatsoever.

As to having their own foods, there were some dragon specific foods as part of the fall festival.

[LaughingOtter]

As to having their own foods, there were some dragon specific foods as part of the fall festival.

Chocolate mice can be eaten by saris and sslik as well as dragons.

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

I don't know how possible that would be Guaran. The decrease in bulk and consignment listings would be nice, but I think the idea behind having series of meals intends for consumption of various patterns of things instead of just buying one lump meal and using it. Having a meal combined into one item would defeat the purpose of having appetizers/sides/main/desserts and remove the possibility of teching foods.

I do like the idea of maybe having one or two "meal" forms that take a large amount of resources to produce, but it seems to me a lot of work to just save people a few bulk of stackable items and simplify a system that is being fleshed out in excruciating detail.

Because honestly, one of the major downfalls of the current food system is the amount of different foods that need to be eaten to remove a single death point and the amount of time it takes to do so.

If all this food and the DP being increased to 24 hours does nothing but keep the amount of food needed to be eaten to remove said DP the way we have now (over 100 in ANY tier if all food types were available) then there really is no point in changing it. A Confectioner being able to combine meals before they go out to the populace would simplify and lessen this burden significantly. People don't want to spend an hour spamming food to remove a single DP hence why no one buys any now except for maybe novelty or something different.

[Guaran]

Exactly.

It's better for the confectioner when it comes to listing them for sale.

It's better for the customer in 2 ways
less stacks to be carried around
less confusion, less accidental wasting of food's because itseaten too soon
(by getting out of order, etc etc)



[Y] to adding a lair room equivalent to Tavern

[Y] to the class havinga useful place.

I do hope that superior ressurection, and primal rebirth are adjusted to match the penalties' new timer of 24 hours.

[Henry Redacre]

I agree with Ssylva's post. Why can't dragons have their own version of Confectioner School? Why can't they have their own foods to make just like the bi-peds do? I can't picture a dragon sitting at a table in a bi-ped tavern sipping their latte and eating salad. Bleh!


[img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-43.gif[/img]

[:'(]

Why can't you give the Devs a magic wand for Christmas so they can wave it and magically have a whole new school planned out, created with all the data entered, populated with resources, tools (or abilities, in the case of Dragons), machines (since it's 100% unacceptable for Dragons to use those miserable Biped excuses for ovens and such, right?), formulas, and finished products too?

It's only fair.

[^o)]

Seriously. Dragons want to be different from Bipeds. Thats fine. But god forbid something gets released for one of you that doesn't get released for the other as well. If you all want something different from the other, then you're going to have to wait for it. Otherwise, if you just want something copied and pasted, then say so.

Me? I'll keep playing a game that I enjoy for it's merits, and when something new comes out for it, cool. If some of you really think that these changes (or any changes for that matter) shouldn't be released until everything is even (but different!) across the board, then I hope you like getting a small handful of patches during the course of a year, and would prefer things get released in a fashion similar to expansion packs.

And hey, while you're at it, if you're giving the devs a magic wand, I want one too. Or else I'll cry that you got one, and I didn't.

[Smeglor]

I do hope that superior ressurection, and primal rebirth are adjusted to match the penalties' new timer of 24 hours.

They will be.

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

I thought this game was supposed to be a player driven economy? Why are the Vielo the only option for "special" resources for cooking?

Why can't Enchanters and Alchemists have a hand in providing such things through Transmutation?

For Enchanters - gives them something more to level and make money on given the serious lack of formuli they have for leveling/construction (ie Glowing Resources for construction consists of a what......5 buildings or something?) Enchanters are just relegated to grinding out a ton of orbs and purifying them to level for the most part.

For Alchemists - takes away some of the pain of all this talk of mystical foods (ie bonuses and such). I'm not afraid of losing market share (there's not too much to go around anyway). BUT, it sure would hurt less if I could transmute things required by another class. It would atleast keep us inwhat will be "agrowing market" ie food and such.

Vielo = market controls and tarrifs. Those don't work fora long term economy. Developers should really think more about cross-class needs/production. Remember when most of us were "a" crafter class? It worked back then. This won't necessarily fix such things but it will force a decission as to whether I would want to make it ALL myself or sub some of that work out.

Food is gonna be needed by EVERYONE, I doubt a single person on any shard will be able to corner the market on it. Forcing the confectionersto have to buy from one single source with no flexability for pricing - will only cause the prices tobe higher than necessary - which reduces consumption, which will reduce profit.

Competition is the answer.

Competition between two classes to supply the necessary ingredients to another class who's market shareon a type of product will be across the shard.

As for those that think this will be more development time...the thought could be to use an existingitem in the treasure tables that are LIVE atm - trophies. I'm talking needing 10-20 of a particular mob to make ONE of the special ingredients.Yes, I, as a higher level "uber ped", could go a-farming but is that small change worth it to me? Is the time wasted not gaining experience in a class or just sheer boredom worth it? Wouldn't it be better to offer to buy them from other LOWER level players?

Such a method could evenmean that lower level players would be sellingleft over trophies (after maxing the exp gains) to higher level crafters to supply yet another crafter which then would support those lower level players - with the food they will need. NOW THAT'S a working economy guys.

The VieloSHOULDN'T be the ONLY source of special ingredients.


My two cents on this.

Bulgrim StoneCleaver

[gena_st]

It may turn out that it is indeed be a process that some players find tedious when it comes to gathering (or searching for) the different ingredients and rare ingredients for these foods. Especially if a player is not gaining any experience from gathering them.

Yeah, that's exactly my concern with this xp system - not that I'm not going to get enough xp in the end, but that I'll not get anywhere with hours of work because I'm not making final products all the time. After a few hours of gathering a long list of ingredients and processing or double-processing some of them with no result xp-wise, I'll be ready to throw in the towel. :(


I also just want to note 2 things about the dragon issues. First, a huge amount of work has just been done on the dragon race to allow ARoP, DLSH and lairs, which bipeds can't really participate in, so focusing on something biped-oriented seems fair to me.Second, while I think a lot of the ideas presented regarding how to implement this for dragons (tavern lairs, eating animal mobs, different recipes, etc) are good ideas, waiting to implement the biped class until the dragon aspect was included would:
1) Delay the update incredibly, and
2) Mean the roll-out and test of (in my opinion) way too many things at once, resulting in lots of bugs and disatisfactions

[belezar]

It may turn out to be more worthwhile for a Confectioner to hire a Gatherer to fill a silo or other storage structure full of a certain ingredient or resource. This way the Confectioner can focus on cooking, and the Gatherer can focus on gathering.

Hehehe [8-)] Perhaps if it was something only a specailist gatherer could harvest due to his skill. Incidentally this should make the economic interdepence people happy if other play styles should interact with them why should confectioners and other classes interact with gatherers?

Having played EQ2 I think rare drops should happen randomly on any tier level resource, as opposed to finding a specific "location" that everyone fights over. A nice little surprise to get some nutmeg or cinnamon or whatever rare component is required. It could also be that gatherers only get this drop or if everyone gets it then gatherers are on a higher percentage.

Taverns should increase DP removal not just on being in a tavern, but if there is say 10 or 20 people there. If you want to encourage social interaction give bonuses for it.

Either way I don't think this is going to be dramatic for Horizons. More people will have confectioner alt's.

If you want interaction Horizons needs a better market where individuals can more easily list and request products to be built.

[belezar]

Hehehe ok another bad implementation conceptually. IMO

Why oh why increase the DP penalty to 24 hours? Why not keep it at 8 hours increase penalty to 75% and reduce the effects of new crafted foods by 1/3.

[Nalrach]

I thought this game was supposed to be a player driven economy? Why are the Vielo the only option for "special" resources for cooking?

Vielo = market controls and tarrifs. Those don't work fora long term economy. Developers should really think more about cross-class needs/production. Remember when most of us were "a" crafter class? It worked back then. This won't necessarily fix such things but it will force a decission as to whether I would want to make it ALL myself or sub some of that work out.

Your rigth on one point Bulgrim and Tulga would love it for this gme to be base player economy.

But this will never happen for theses simple reasons: The player base is too small, price player ask are insane (especially since they stopped all mobs to give cash rewards, and selling what ever you collect to pawn does not worth the space it takes in backpack) and no where if you grind for gathering stuff you can effeciently sale. Not forgetting the annoying WTB every 5 mins in the chat channel. The other fact with the player based so small is the multiclass, the level cap at 100 and the lack of players made themself to be self sufficient (solo or guild wise) by learning multiple craft (for one, I can build any t3 housing alone, and t4 at 80%)

I know Tulga does not like to be compared to other games, but WoW has a trade player driven economy, why .. simple a centralised system that people can post the items they want to sale and at what price (base price, time to sell, max price for auto sale) and when the trade is done the items is ship to purchaser in the messaging system and he cn grab it no mather where he is.

As a crafter and selling, the vielo are not the problems they are usefull when you cannot locate an items or when people are realy not reasonnable in the price asking. The vielo are a problem for people that want to control a market share and sale at great fee. And with the connie in front of the vielo it's now easy for people to sale their comps, if they want to sale at fair price.

You want to make it easy for people wanting to craft and sale, make a system that is easy to sale. Make your list of connies viewable from all the main city, change shelflife to 30 days, Tripple the items we can sale, don't return to vault but;send a message to player saying "renew or sale at 30% value (of market base price) or Make a gift to the poor (ie: delete and recieve a gift from the poor (random draw items))".

Why I say market base price, is to prevent people from abusing this and placing stuff at 10Gp and wait the 30 days to get rich. How to set the base priceit's eay, we all know that Vielo is about 4x to 6x too expensive. This (vielo sale price) is top value of base price ( yes I know theire still is possible for some cash skeeming if the player is the only one placing a certain item and no one else is. But he only will get 30% of Vielo price.).Tulga still has a way to control economy, by controlling the price of Vielo. Of course the way they do it now, lack of spawn of comps is a way too. Then you look at the connie and check for the item and do an avrage of the selling price (ie:10 items @ 10s and 10 items @ 20s, 10x10=100, 10x20=200, 100+200=300, 300/30=15s)

And of course their is the WTB issue ... I am behind on my reading, but I understand something is on the bligth server been tested.

[belezar]

You want to make it easy for people wanting to craft and sale, make a system that is easy to sale. Make your list of connies viewable from all the main city, change shelflife to 30 days, Tripple the items we can sale, don't return to vault but;send a message to player saying "renew or sale at 30% value (of market base price) or Make a gift to the poor (ie: delete and recieve a gift from the poor (random draw items))".

Agree with your comments on WOW and EQ2 also has a well designed consignment and economic model that really gives buyers and sellers a dynamic marketplace.

Our Horzons economy is severely hamstrung by low player population and a system that hides the market value of goods in the economy.

[Goriax]

Agree with your comments on WOW and EQ2 also has a well designed consignment and economic model that really gives buyers and sellers a dynamic marketplace.

Our Horzons economy is severely hamstrung by low player population and a system that hides the market value of goods in the economy.

There's two aspects of EQ2 which allows greater player selection of player made products and I doubt either would be popular with HZ players. First, in EQ2 EVERYTHING has to be attuned before you can use it. This includes all player crafted items. You can't give your item to someone else when you're through with it. You can sell it to an NPC or you can destory it.

Second, the products aren't nearly as customizeable since there are no techniques in wide use. While there are a few different lines of items at various level ranges, there is not NEARLY the range of items possible with techniques which can be mixed and matched to fit each player's style and what they consider important. By making everything the same, it makes it easier to sell in bulk.

If HZ had no techs either it would be simple for a crafter to make a bunch of items and put them on a consigner and for others to come by and purchase them. Most people would be buying most of their equipment off consigners if that were the case. And everyone of a given profession and level would be using one of two or three types of equipment because that's all the variety there would be (like all the 30s tanks in EQ2 were wearing vanguard and all the 20s tanks were wearing quest armor). Because there's far less variety. Because of the techniques, and the fact that HZ players like their items customized for their playing style, this isn't practical. But the techniques are what make HZ equipment so unique -- the fact that you can have something made to be strong in what YOU want it to be strong in. I just don't see the EQ2 system being popular here.

People don't realize it because they're so immersed in it, but customizeable equipment via techniques are a very powerful featureof HZ.

So yea, all you have to do to get that style of economy is remove all techniques and make EVERYTHING no drop. I think most would consider that price to be too high.

-------------

Sorry for the distraction. It's good to see they're following through experience only being applied for the finished goods. After doing lairshaping the last few days it seems to work out quite well by the way. Sure you don't get experience for the early stages where you're setting things up, but the final application makes up for it. I just hope people don't find exploits.TG can't ever allow it to be easy to make the preliminary components leading up to the stage where you get experience.

So they're making the death system far harsher just so confectioners have a place in the world. They're effectively nerfing the entire player baseto make confectioners feel needed. I better not see any confectioners whining about still being the red headed stepchild. (and for you confectioners drawing parallels with lairshaping I remind you that nobody was nerfed for the sake of the dragons other then the time spent in the development. However EVERYONE is getting nerfed for the sake of the confectioners even if you overlook the time in development).

I'm not too thrilled about being dependent on bipeds for one more thing, but if they include dragon tavern equivalents it'll take out some of the sting. But PLEASE include some foods which you could make a case for dragons liking. On the dragon taverns, it would be nice if they could give us a rundown on dimensions, attach points etc. so we can leave room for them in our lairs. Also and especially if they can't give us that info early on, it would probably be easier to fit in taverns laterif they're relatively small and span few levels.

Perhaps at some point they could have a modified confectioner school for dragons. Much like in beta there were dragon equivalents of almost all the biped schools. The only real differencebetween thedragon and biped confectioner schoolswould be the actual food items.

I have always thought that the HZ death system was too mild so I don't plan on screaming too loudly about this as long as I don't have to listen to any more confectioner whining. But I expect to see a lot of screaming.

------------

Because the change to the death system was buried in the confectioner preview, it's likely that most players aren't aware of it yet. It'll be interesting to see how much brown organic substance hits the fan when everyone becomes aware of what's happening.

[Goriax]

Oops. Messed that one up.