Quote Originally Posted by Goriax
[img]Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]belezar wrote:

Yes I agree that the EQ2 economic system is powerful because it creates a market where buyers and sellers can interact.
It works because there aren't that many things being sold. Buyers and sellers can interact just fine through the consigners and the seller doesn't even have to be online to do it (something EQ2 is still struggling with and on which it is far far behind HZ)
Far behind? Simply untrue. In EQ2 you are allowed to sell while off line as well as on line, you have two free slots and can put multi slot boxes in those two slots. I had 48 slots selling both individual and stacked items. All while off line.

The EQ2 style system is superior as it allows a real market in goods to exist. Unlike the current Horizons system.

For example, if you're a tank and want to buy a heavy armor chest piece, there's only a couple different types you'll be interested in. Don't bother about getting it customized via techs because there aren't any. Decide which of the 2-3 pieces you want and pick the one with the best price.
Im more interested in creating a dynamic functional market place. Not focusing on just armor which is a very specific item to purchase when techs get involved, armor has a higher degree of customisation that a consumer may want. (which obviously is why you choose to focus on Armor) Notwithstanding armor under and EQ2 style system could be listed both plain and with techs for sale making items available to consumers while they scour Istaria for their choice piece.

Your reasoning falls apart when you say because armor is so difficult then everything else is also similarly difficult. Which quite simply is not true you neglect to consider, forms, techs, tools, resources, components, food, potions and other items which would be very well suited to a more dynamic listing system.

Therefore, people can list the chest pieces and you can pick one of the couple based on price. By contrast, in HZ, once you add techs, there's HUNDREDS of different combinations of techs at high level. Most players have a pretty good idea what they want. People selling can't supply hundreds of items with different techs, especially when each requires hard to find comps. Consequently, people don't buy stuff off the consigners but instead go to a crafter and have them make it for them to order.

It's the difference between identical mass produced stuff with little selection, and made to order stuff with a huge selection.
Your point is well taken, it does in no way invalidate the requirement for an improved more dynamic marketplace in the horizons economy.

One single person may not be able to supply hundreds of items with different techs, however hundreds of sellers using and EQ2 type system would be able to provide a vastly superior availability of products to hundreds of buyers. The items being sold need not be the 100% match the individual desires. My cooking cargo gear whilst being a blacksmith is a prime example.


I disagree if you believe you have to remove techniques
And as I just showed, if you want the EQ2 style, you have to remove techniques so as to reduce the variety. I think HZ players would rather deal with the huge variety.
You have not demonstrated this at all. The one thing you have shown is that in a very specific circumstance, namely wanting a very unique piece of equipment you have to follow the current more labor intensive route, which is not the problem. That part of the marketplace works reasonably well, although functionality could be added to improve the link up of producer and consumer.


and make everything attuneable.

Perhaps not. EQ2 did it as a less obnoxious way of removing stuff from the market over item decay. Either way, HZ players aren't going to like it.
As my earlier post clearly demonstrated, this is a straw man that you have erected and are beating to death. The current system can remain.

You yourself make the claim that items are so unique that they cannot be created and listed. That description is akin to attunement to a very specific individual player.


Incentive To List And Participate In a Market
EQ2 charges commision on sale after the sale is made. You can list a limited amount indefinately from your own room, which comes with your account.

I don't think the commision matters unless you're listing huge numbers of items which don't sell. I hardly look at it, because most of the stuff I list sells, in which case the commision quickly becomes negligable. If you aren't selling at least 10% of what you list you've got other problems. Like not knowing your market.You also failed tomention thatEQ2 you have to supply the space to hold them compared to HZ where the consigner holds them.
If the commission does not matter why not have the fee deducted at the end of the transaction?

If the fee was deductable on successful completion of transaction then more people would list. If you were able to browse in game what is for sale and it's pricing you have the makings of a competitive, dynamic market place.


But of course that isn't the real problem with EQ2. The real problem is thatto list most items you have to remain online. That sure kept me from listing much. I understand that you can now list a FEW things from your room storage offlineand maybe it's possible to do more (I stopped playing that piece of crap game). But that number is VERY limited unless you buy a VERY expensive room which does NOT come with the account.
Untrue. You can list multiple items hundreds of them all while off line. I sold many food, drink and harvestable both mundane and rare items in this manner.

The basic room costs 5s per week when daily you can sell stacks of 20 roots for 1-3s each or food for 40-70s each rare drops for 35g to 2plat the 5s and in this context room cost is irrelevant to the discussion.



Highly Specalised Customization's and Generic Equipment
YES Horizons is very customizable with items and techs! You are assuming an economy where everyone is so different that a crafter could not possibly concieve a way to create items that would sell in the market place. You disappoint me Goriax really you do. Considering in my time as a blacksmith I've had cargo gear donated to me with cooking bonuses I'd say you would be incorrect in your assertion.


Every person I play with, when it's time for new armor they decide for themselves what they want. I've never seen a crafter make teched armor for putting on the consigner. Are you saying you do? If you do you're the first. (That question isrhetorical, I'm ending this discussion as I say below)

This is getting far afield. The fact of the matter is, that the HZ consignment system is far superiorto whatEQ2 has. EQ2 manages a market because there are so few styles of equipment. While they do have one advantage (a global in-game listing for your city showing everything listed everywhere -- something you have to go to the HZ web site to see the equivalent of). That's pretty much it. Unless you think variety is bad.
Are you purposefully being obtuse?

You say no one makes teched armor for putting on the consignor and then claim that the Horizons consignment system is superior. You choose to focus on a very narrow spectrum of the economy Armor and neglect to consider, forms, techs, tools, resources, components, food, potions and other items that would clearly be beneficaries under an EQ2 style listing. How can having no armor available to the consumer be superior than making it available?

I have sold plain armor on the consignor when I upgrade. Armor with simple Armor bonus techs would sell. I've sold teched armor before. Having the current system which discourages such listing is NOT superior it is a hobbled economy and vastly inferior.

This whole EQ2 vs HZ consignment system is getting far afield, and with that post, and withthe insults in it, I feel no desire to continue discussion so will not respond to or even read posts involving EQ2economy vs HZ economyonthis thread. If you want to discuss EQ2 vs HZ economy then start a thread on that subject. Don't hijack the confectioner thread.
I have elaborated and shed light on the fallicies and inaccuracies in your dialog. You are correct there is no need to continue with any further discussion.

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It's time to get back to the real issue on this thread, which is confectioners. I apologize to readers of this thread for letting myself get diverted.