Multiclassing (Adv) or Mass Killing? Which is killing HZ?

[PJ]

Uh I'm not so sure why you feel that's unreasonable. Hence why I asked for detail. Yeah the thread is about Mass killing as a problem. But if you take a careful look at that, its not terribly descriptive. Yes we're on page 5 of this thread, but if you've read those 5 pages, we're not all always discussing the same problem with mass killing.

When you have two people who disagree on what exactly the problem is, they're going to disagree on how to solve it.

Why exactly is mass killing a problem in your mind. I doubt its something completely irrational like "mass killing is inherently evil. That's just be silly.

Basically we'vegone back and forth over this issue repeatedly there must be some fundamental disconnect, of disagreement. Hence, i'm asking for a clear and concise statement of what in your mind is the problem with mass killing, and why its a problem.

[imported_tjl]

hundereds of comps on sir adian, priced at like 3s each or less... most are placed by mass killers who prob dont even need the money. and then you see small amounts of the same comp, priced much higher (though still very very reasonable if compared to nadia) from a non-mass killer who is just trying to make some money in a failing economy.

certainly a "problem". not one that I would want the devs to endevour to fix right now though. but a problem none the less. IMO.

[Jayne]

Torvo, thats why I don't hunt farmable mobs. I won't take hours to get a few comps that are worth, u know what. I hunt comps that aren't farmable and are worth money.

Jayne

[FleshRoast]

I am not sure I see a problem with either mass-killing or multiclassing. Mass-killing isn't a problem if you can do it with the possible exception that a mass-killer prevents access to a mob from others. If done for farming purposes, normal economics apply. As the market becomes saturated, prices drop, and the mass-killing becomes unprofitable, so it stops. Its all about market timing.

I've thought a lot about multi-classing because of this thread. Granted, it has become what it was not intended, but we live with what it is now. There has been much talk of risk v. reward in this thread. I see multi-classing as reward for time invested. Is it the same amount of time as before? No, but many things change in value over time. You get out of something what you put into it and there may be something said for when you invest in something as well.

Dragons are single class characters. Bipeds do not have to be. Those are the rules. When I joined up, I knew this up front and accepted it. I chose to become a dragon knowing full well the class structure limitations. Now that I'm Ancient, I do not begrudge the fact that I cannot exceed lvl 100 nor change class. I have started playing a bi-ped to enjoy the abilities of multi-classing with the full intention of becoming one of these uber-peds. If I invest the time and energy to do so, I see no reason why it cannot be.

An obvious solution to multi-class is to do away with a rating. Your rating is simply the level of your current class. All spells and abilities a player can use are based only off the current class level. The furor this would cause would rock the game. Perhaps even kill it. It would be ironic that those against multi-class be without a game because multi-class was nerfed. The reasons I've seen against this ability are mostly that it "prevents" others from doing something. There will always be those with power that abuse it, unfortunately. I would hope there is a greater number of those that do not.

The thread title asks which of two things is killing the game. I would say neither of the two that are mentioned. I vote for a third: Ostracism. Groups of players become so critical of others who play differently they cause them to leave.

[PJ]

I'll try to outline my problem with mass killing simply:

The loot for those killing single mobs is in general terrible. The drop rates on comps are bad, hoardables bad, trophies not quite as bad, but still bad, money's not too bad, ornaments are bad. Formulas and techs used to be absolutely terrible. Those are the main categories of items.

When you're a new player, low level player, single class player, and you're killing what a mob every 2 minutes? 2 mobs every 5? In a 10 minute span you've been lucky if you've gotten anything other then garbage resources. The loot is bad.Shoot even as a massively multiclassed player the drop rate for killing mobs one at a time is bad in my mind.

Now this is not specifically referring to any category, the drops are bad, per individual mob across the board.

Now because there is such a large disparity in the number of mobs killed in a period of time between those killing 1 at a time, and those mass killing/farming mobs, we have 2 potential situations.

If the loot drops are good for the mass killer/farmer, they're going to be terrible for the single mob killer. If the drops are good for a single mob killer, they become astronomical for mass mob killers. We saw this expert forms and t5 techs. They were initially rare as hens teeth post merge. The drop rates were terrible for killing one at a time, and if you wanted to get much of any you were going to be mass killing mobs for them. Then TG raised the drops on them, so that you could actually expect to get some as a single mob killer. And as a result the majority of t5 techs and forms are worth no more then their pawn value.

There's precious little middle ground. Drops will be either good, but their value will be destroyed via mass killing, or poor, and then you've got crappy loot for a large portion of your playing population, and particularly the portion you're trying to nurture (new players/low level players).


The idea that because mass farming drives down the value of particular goods will eventually detur people from farming those mobs has been proven to be incorrect.

Trophies, hoard, and multimob experience have value that isn't diluted by mass farming, and people will continue to seek these rewards.


So the problem essentially lies in how do you make a loot system that is rewarding to all portions of your player base?

[Guaran]

^^What Flesh said^^

I think snow's idea of reward for risk isn't a goodor fair idea.

You compare to a multiclassed players "perceived" ability to kill better than you. But the same player has leveled multiple classes. There is "effort" involved just in the leveling of classes. It becomes harder to do as well, thanks to rating. So now you want to effectively nerf thier loot? How is that fair to them? They worked for those multiple schools. And not all multi-class players can just farm to thier hearts content. Not all multiclass players are spawn hoggers. Not all multiclass players are rich.Not all multiclass players have some HUGE ability to just out-kill any single classed player.

How would it be fair to those players, if they got worse (or even just as good as)loot as someone who was a level 70 single class player? You want to remove the incentive for people to multiclass? "Yeah, now when you multiclass, loot actually gets WORSE if you are multiclass melee'er (not a uni-bomber, assuming the loot is tailored to stay the same so uni bombers = single class toons..).. so yeah, I'm just not going to multiclass. So what do you want to do do?" "Oh I dont know. I'm bored. Wanna play Socom on ps2 with me??" "Sure!" "btw I'm cancellinghz. nothing left to do." "ok, me too"

Please, let's not kill the game, just when things are looking up.



On the other hand, certain spawns might be a little too dense. Certain mobs shouldnt drop certain things. etc. These are suggestions also pretty well fleshed out already.

[Machivelli]

Ahh ? my favorite flame topic. Seeing as I haven?t been flamed in a few months, and certainly not in this new year, I figure it?s time to toss some of you a bone. ;)


Multiclassing
Without multiclassing there are little to no bipeds playing Horizons ? period! Why play HZ with all of its bugs and quarks if you can play WoW, EQ and the others? Why would I want to jump into Istaria and kill the same mobs with the same animations with the same attacks that have just been inflated by setscale and adding a roman numeral at the end of an attack? Why would I want to be a mage/wizard/warrior/cleric here when there are games out there that are designed for singleclass and offer WAY MORE content and game play for singleclass schools? Take away multiclassing, or nerf it into oblivion and most of the players I know (myself included) are ghosts. My two level 100 Ancient Dragons are fun, but the luster of flight would give way to the hoard and crafting/lairshaping grind really quick.

</hear that ? the flamers are drooling over that opening statement ? lets see if I can give them a bit more to play with/>

Mass killing
No one starts out with the ability to mass kill. It?s gained over time with increasing ones level and skill. And no it?s not limited to bipeds and multiclassing. The first mass killer I saw was a Helian Dragon that could level a group of mobs faster than any Uber Duber Multiclassed Biped of the time. So stop trying to pin this solely on Bipeds and label them evil! I personally started off as a Cleric, mass killing?? Yeah, that mace and warhammer made quick work of groups of ? dim wisps! Now almost two years later I can hold my own against most groups, though as Ravenger reminded me last night I am not a ?Istarian God?, I do (as everyone does, even the 220 types) have a limit on number and power of mobs I can agro. My favorite example is while in a group with some new players I got a little cocky and said ? ?Watch this? ? yeah, we all died in a mater of 20 seconds. Guess I should have said ?Here hold my BEER and Watch this!? :P

- Mass killing is a problem when it comes to those players that want to compete with each other. This is most noticeable when the topic of drops is brought up. Yes the mass killer is going to gather more of this and that, its basic math. Is it fair? Well, this goes back to the root of the multiclass vs. singleclass argument. As it has been pointed out in previous discussions on this topic, why should a person who decides to stay singleclass be hindered from doing exactly what the multiclass person does. Valid question, but one that due to the design of this game does not hold water. Think of it like a Ferrari, we all bought it knowing what it was capable of doing. You can?t tell the people who decide to do 200mph in sixth gear to slow down because you don?t want to take it out of first gear. We all have the same ?Potential? (split this into two groups, Dragons/Bipeds), but we don?t have the same ?Outcome?. If you didn?t catch the info in the brackets, all Dragons have the same potential as any other Dragon. All bipeds have the same potential as any other biped (the racial differences are really moot in the long run). Dragons/Biped will never be equal ? ever! To think otherwise is foolhardy at best. You?d better serve yourself and your time by trying to make Hummers (original, not that H2 or H3 trash) and Ferrari?s equal.

- Mass killing is a non-factor with regards to the economy, the economy in the two years that I have played has NEVER existed! To be honest, I seriously doubt even Alan Greenspan could fix a virtual economy in an unstable and ever changing VIRTUAL world where the population has no need to spend money on essential goods and services! You DON?T have to eat food, drink potions, pay rent/mortgages, utilities, taxes, child care, taxes, health care, taxes and lets not forget about those taxes.

</ohhh .. the hairs on the back of my neck are standing on end ? I feel an MC3/PS/BO/FB T5 Fiery Strike coming/>

In short I?m still here because of Multiclassing, both Adventure and Craft. No, after two years I still cannot make all of my own stuff, or build all of my own buildings. No, I am not as powerful and cannot kill the same numbers of high level mobs as the elite bipeds on Chaos. No, I do not have all the epic and unique weapons/armor/shields (frankly most of them are epic-less junk). Do I care ? NO! I do not play this game to compete with the Joneses and the Jayneses (TROJAN!!! Sorry ? instinctual thing there). I play this game to have fun, to escape into a different world where I don?t have to think about my mortgage, car payments, school loans or my micro-managing dictator boss. As soon as this game fails to offer that escape, or becomes bogged down with bickering and spiteful players, I?ll uninstall it, run a DOD wipe on those sectors and move on to the next one.

</just give me a second to slip into my flame retardant cloths, grab my OBA and dark sunglasses ?. done ? let?er RIP! ;) />

***EDIT***

Agree totally with G, and everything he said.

[Jayne]

Wow! Was that a personal attack GOUCHO? LOL:)

Jayne

[Aamer Khan]

Having decided to stick with Horizons and after dropping into the forums to see what up lately, I felt the need to comment on this thread.

Multiclassing enabled masskilling, and are thus totally interconnected. In that sense, discussing one vs. the other is nonsense.

But to answer PJ's last question:

Current loot is made up of things we need to either level or create items. That is why it is truly crappy, because once we all have these NEEDED items, their value naturally falls. But what if all forms and techs were returned to the trainers like it started out? You need craft forms? do craft quests and get beginner/jman/expert/master lore tokens and just buy them from your trainer. If this works for the first 3 tiers why will it not work for the next 3? The economy should not be based on items we all need and thus once gotten, will become finite. Thats really why its stagnant now.

Next, add items that would be considered real loot. Not like the blighted items that are mostly considered junk. Like drop a blade of rending once and awhile, or a gnerf bat, or even a standard invisible mithril chainmail helm with 4 sockets. Ambrosia is going to become drop only. Thats a very good idea in so many ways. Now ambrosia becomes LOOT! What about a ring/pendant set that acts as a mark/recall? Drop the pendant out at the resource field, ( only you can see or interact with you pendant ) and every time you "use" the ring you recall to the pendant.

I'm sure that there would be a thriving market for such items and it would provide a drive to craft and adventure so as to get them .

The only programming that needs be considered besides whats needed to add any new item , is to decrease the chance to get these more rare loot item based on the total number of mobs under attack devided by the number in your group. For instance, your in a group of 4 and you tag 9 mobs. Lets say the chance to get a blade of rending is 2% and every mob decreases your groups chances by .1% Your group now has a 1.775% chance of getting a blade, where as the solo massfarmer has a 1.1% chance. The more mobs the massfarmer can kill at once, the worse his changes are at getting a "loot" item. He may get more comps, but the value of those types of items is based on market need. If the market is flooded, the comps value will be low.

Just a thought

[PJ]

Going to disagree vehemently with one thing real fast.

Multiclassing is not what enables mass killing. It enhances the abilities of bipeds to mass kill, but it does not enable.

Rational:

1.) Dragons can mass kill, dragons cannot multiclass. Hence mass killing would exist without multiclassing. Now I'm not going to pretend that they can do it necessarily as well as some massively multiclassed bipeds, but the idea that they cannot is laughable. Just take a trip to the fire blights, ice blights, or dire/icey dire wolves for a few examples.

2.)Even single classed bipeds can mass kill mobs. All the removal of multiclass does is remove the classes that don't natively get aoe attacks from the list of those single classes which can. And you're going to get a shift in targets, depending on the single class /race combination as to which sort of mobs are mass killable.

[LaughingOtter]

WB, Aamer. [:D]

I'd go for your idea 100%, if it were not for next-to-last paragraph. Rare and desirable items should not ever be on any mob which can be effectivly farmed. Humanoid WA, abominations, vexators, kwellen, named mobs - they should have the good stuff.

My main objection to the lowered chance of loot in a multi-mob combat is simple: sometimes, the excrement impacts the air circulator and you get swarmed. If you survive accidently pulling two or threemore vexators than you expected to, you deserve the fullspoils of your victory.

[Aamer Khan]

I'll stand by my comment even though I really do understand where your coming from.

Your right that dragon cant multiclass, but they do get hoard based attacks that allow for it.

I'll concede that nukers can as a single class mass kill, but not in the quantities that a multiclassed player can. A single classed mage cannot take on 30 mobs and kill them all consistantly without either cleric/healer MC or being healed or buffed from another player.
( If this is indeed possible, please provide 1 example of proof )

Since the thread is about multiclassing vs masskilling, let me ask what would be the case if everyone could only have 1 adv class? Nukers like mages, and dragons would be the massfarmers and the rest of us would support them. BUT, since we can all have those skills by multiclassing, what I as a scout could not do, I can now do as a ranger/cleric. In that way MC has enabled me to masskill when I could not before.

Other than that, what about the rest of the idea PJ?

And Thanks Klaus! [:P]

I didn't make that part clear, "LOOT" would never and should never be on easily farmable mobs. Also, according to what I proposed, you as a solo player getting jumped by 4 mobs and surviving still only lowers your chance of getting that rare item by .1%. That seems a totally fair trade off to prevent massfarming for rares.

edit: OH, and realize this calculation ONLY affects rare loot items not comps or resource drops. I doubt seriously you'll be "farming" vexators in the first place. By taking 3-4 vex on you increase your changes of getting fringes. :)

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

Guaran, and Aamer after,

Mass killing is not exclusive to multiclassing!!!!!!

I honestly cannot say that enough! There are single classers who can mass kill. There are dragons who can mass kill. Mass killing is not exclusive to multiclassing!!!!!!


Guaran, the person who was "percieving" was a *gasp* DRAGON! not a multiclassed biped, which I have mentioned several times. So PLEASE quit trying to make it out like I am talking about multiclassers when I'm not!

Aamer, multiclassing enables a larger selection of mob types to mass kill. It does not enable mass killing in and of itself. Pariah proved that with their own dissertation of a Mage's mass killing capabilities. Every dragon who mass kills proves that. So yes, mass killing CAN be discussed on it's own merit without connecting it exclusively to multiclassing.

Also Aamer, you're multiclassed, not sure how heavily but multiclassed enough I believe. Heck, I chatted to you about Spearman and discussed how multiclasser UNfriendly the school is when you were thinking about picking it up as an add on. But.. If you really want to get an idea how much 1on1 killing loot SUCKS compared to mass killing... Go out, and kill 1 non-WA mob a minute for 30 minutes (non-WA cuz for a 1on1er WA take a LOT longer and that's pretty fast already, I know I couldn't keep that speed up against mobs my level range) and see what 30 mobs in 30 minutes nets you. Don't think about selling potential, this is just to see what exactly you get drop wise. I'll even do the same, kill as many mobs my level range (and even lower! so I can try and fit in 30 mobs in 30 minutes lol) as I can in 30 minutes, and report back. You'll soon see that what the loot is made up of is not the sole reason it is crap. Yes, it's make-up IS crap, but it's rate at dropping crap is also... well crap. :P


And for good measure, Mass killing is not exclusive to multiclassing!!!!!! :D


EDIT: To address what Aamer just said about how this thread is about multiclassing vs mass killing....

See, I didn't really get this discussion started to address multiclassing but I suppose just having the mention of it instantly made everyone figure it was. I'll have to better word my subjects in the future. I only mentioned it because almost everyone and their dog points the finger at multiclassing like it's the devil and bane of HZs existance. So here I was saying no, I don't think it is as much as mass killing is. But for a LOT of people, that sentiment somehow got lost.

So umm, yeah, like no.

[Jayne]

2.)Even single classed bipeds can mass kill mobs.

If you say so, maybe a few can, or maybe your definition of mass kill is different from mine.

Jayne

[Machivelli]

Wow! Was that a personal attack GOUCHO? LOL[img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]

Jayne

AHHHHH .... IT BURNS IT BURNS ... oh wait. I could never attack a fellow chickaluman. I mean who else here understands the "Butter and Egg day Parade" :P

[FleshRoast]

Thanks PJ, for the clarification.

The idea that because mass farming drives down the value of particular goods will eventually detur people from farming those mobs has been proven to be incorrect.
Trophies, hoard, and multimob experience have value that isn't diluted by mass farming, and people will continue to seek these rewards.

Good point. Not *all* loot loses value based on an economical market structure. Experience and hoard have the same value to a player until the maximum is reached. Much else, however, would be subject to market conditions. Perhaps addressing experience and hoard through another "check and balance" strategy would be the way to go.

There's precious little middle ground. Drops will be either good, but their value will be destroyed via mass killing, or poor, and then you've got crappy loot for a large portion of your playing population, and particularly the portion you're trying to nurture (new players/low level players).

So the problem essentially lies in how do you make a loot system that is rewarding to all portions of your player base?

Ahh, now this is a clearquestion. I would suggest that the answer here lies in quests. Quests can be controlled in the number of times they can be executed. They can also be level specific.Quests, for the above reasons, could make mass-kill farming far less profitable. If the quest rewards for low levels were bumped up, you nurture the budding population. Decreasing rewards, for number of times completed and higher levels, would establish the "profitability" earned by the players.

I know that these quests aren't in the game now, but based on the points you make and the question asked, they do appear to be a viable answer to providing decent low-level loot and preventing random mass-kill farming.

[Jayne]

OK! Just to point out, right now there is a bug in the forums and my posts are going thru moderation. Although it goes in the right time from when I made the post you don't see it till they approve it. This is frustrating because your probably missing what I am saying.

Now I went back and read Snow's mention of the drop rates. And from what I've read lets throw multiclassing out the window and say there is none. Many have mentioned that some single classes CAN mass kill.

First off, I personally like the drop rates. I don't want everything so easy. I think the way things drop kinda levels out the fact that there is mass killing to a point. Just changing drop rates will just create more of a problem from one view point to another. And at this point we know where we stand. As I said earlier mass killed comps are low dollar comps, so I hunt mobs that for the most part are NOT mass killable. Why? Because they get more money. I don't go kill fire golems for two hours to end up with 20 comps that might get me 2s each in a week or two. I kill blue vex for two hours and get10 comps that sell for 15s each.

Now this arguement....... even though every wolf has a skull, I don't want to get one off every wolf. If that were the case, and people wanna get anal about that then I would want them to change the name of the comp to something different that no one can say "Hey they all have one". So lets just change the name to "Dire wolf kidney stone" That way we don't have a bunch of arguing about hey they all have this and I'm an expert at killing yata yata yata. Yea all we need to do is flood the market and nothing will be worth anything, economy is already a mess lets really mess it up and make everything easy.

If were gonna get that stupid then lets get rid of multiclassing, no way can someone learn all that. They are called jack of all trades masters of none.

And then lets make it so we don't shoot an arrow or cast a spell and hit every single time, geez come on. I don't care, you can argue till your blue in the face, no one can hit a mob every single time. No expert hunter in the world can hit the target perfect for the rest ofhis or herlife. I am an expert marksman/woman in RL, and I still miss. Some of these attacks hit every single time, it's automatic. My cleave does not hit everytime.We should miss, thats more realistic. Think about it. I can shoot an arrow 100 yards and hit everytime, but can't swing an axe and hit everytime. non sense.

Solution? Well concidering I am comfortable with the way it is I don't really need one. I totally understand where Snow is coming from. I WAS there. But I found a way to survive in this mass killing world. I have always figured out a way to get what I need.

*********REPEAT**********
I DON"T WANT EVERYTHING EASY!

If I wanted that I would go to best buy and get a new game for my sons PS2 and walk up to the register along with the Cheat book thats in the next aisle and go home and finish the game in an hour.

I like going to the arena as mildly classed 123 berserker and look down and see the 200 rating laying at my feet that one time! I may get laid out 100 times, but theres that one time when everyone said you CAN'T win that makes it all special!

I like being the underdog!

Talk about killing, where's the blood in this game??? Realism you ask? I cut thatwolfs head clean off, but no head rolls away. No I get a coin looking thing that goes to a trophy trainer.

Now I'm pissed, I'm going home and I'm gonna log in and have some fun. If you would like to join Jayne and have fun then meet me there, there is so much more to life

Jayne<---------Heavy sigh

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

My results... Pretty sure I started at 11:57am but could have been 11:53, one or the other. My last kill was at 12:28pm, that I'm sure of.

This was killing T3 gem golems, mostly Aqua's but tried to put in some Citrines and Jaspers in as well to cut down on my time.

Out of 16 Aquamarine Golems I got...

91 Uncut Aquamarine
1 Aquamarine Golem Chip (comp)
2 Aquamarine Golem Gemstones (trophy)
1 Golden Coffer
1 Ornamenta Axe
1 Blessed Charm
1 Cursed Charm

10 of those only dropped resources, 3 dropped one type of item in addition to resources, 1 dropped just the axe, 1 dropped just the blessed charm, and 1 dropped just the trophies.

Out of 6 Citrine Golems I got...

25 Uncut Citrine
3 Citrine Golem Gemstones (trophy)
1 Golden Bell

3 of these only dropped resources, 1 dropped one trophy in addition to resources, 1 dropped just trophies, and 1 dropped the hoardable.

Out of 8 Jasper Golems I got...

9 Uncut Jasper
7 Jasper Golem Gemstones (trophy)
1 Blighted Charm
3 Orange Ornaments

3 of these only dropped resources, 1 dropped just the charm, 1 dropped just the ornaments, 1 dropped trophies in addition to resources, 1 dropped a trophy, and 1 dropped two lots of double trophies.


So, a general summary...

125 unrefined resources
1 tech comp
12 trophies
3 ornaments
3 hoardables
3 charms


Yup, most of that is crap. But for that to be ALL I got in 30 minutes??? Makes it doubly craptastic.

[Drevar]

I firmly believe that Multiclassing is the primary enabler of mass killing as well as the root of a host of other problems in the game. That being said, it is still possible to establish some balance to the threat/reward aspect of mass-and single-killing without requiring newconvoluted loot rules or a complete school and ability rebalance.

Why do people mass kill? Why do they mass kill specific monsters and not others? Yes, some do it just because they can or because it is "fun", but most do it for the myriad of rewards that can be gotten with a minimum of effort. Rewards come in various forms: XP, useable loot, techniques and forms, trophies, tech and/or quest components, hoard items, and coin. The problem arises when too many of these rewards are available simultaneously on the same creatures. Take purple spiders for instance. They offer XP, blighted equipment, hoard drops, tech comps, and techniques and forms and are extremely easy to defeat. If they only offered technique components and experience, they could still have two very important purposes, but not end up being a jackpot when killed in large numbers. Blights are even worse as they add coin, crystals, and even rare loot and chromas at the T6 level, yet fall just as quickly as any other "soft" creature.

Creatures need to be given a specific purpose instead of just being grab bags of of rewards. Non-sentient indigenous creatures can provide experience (including trophies) and resources. Sentient indegineous can provide different combinations of XP, coin, loot drops, and techniques and forms, but not all of them on the same creature type. Undead would provide the full range of drops, with specific types more inclined to drop one type or another. These are the primary enemy in the game, afterall, and it should be encouraged that they be fought as often and ruthlessly as possible.

I offer some examples to perhaps clarify my idea:
The Skulks havesnubbed all invitations to join the Empire. They reject the monetary system of the Empire and rely on traditional bartering. (drop no coin) Thier warriors are fierce and diverse in thier training, including group tactics. (good XP) Thier shamans have a long history and tradition of spellcrafting. (higher than usual chance for Spell Form or Spell Technique drop, but do not drop other forms or techs unless Rare or special drops are made specifically attainable from skulks in the future). Strong shamanistic traditions make charms and fetishes common among the Skulk. (drop charms, lockets, tablets, etc) They also have a strong connection with the swamp and have a deep understanding of the various herbs and other plants that grow near their homes. (can drop rare mushrooms, herbs, spices, etc.) Skulks do not share the usual humanoid drive to attain objects of great monetary value and shun objects not of Skulk origin; a necklace of self hunted Bloodsnout tusks is a much greater source of pride than a shiny gold box made by Elves.(no hoard drops, blighted equipment, or rares unlessspecific to Skulks)

Mithril (and other earth resource) golems are nothing more than hulking, animated resource nodes (drop mithril and tech comps). Thier style of combat is essentially "Hulk smash!" and shows no tactical or strategic prowess, but are difficult to damage due to thier composition.(balanced normal XP) The naturally polished "hearts" of golems are highly sought after by collectors, and may have other, more arcane uses. (drops trophies). Golems show no emotions or desires and thus have no need for material goods. (no other drops unless specifically designed for golems as quest drops, etc.) Those golems whose life force has grown significantly powerful enough to develop some semblance of sentience may sometimes collect an item or two of value to distinguish themselves from the others. (higher drop rate of tech comps and trophies, and a lower than average chance for1 or 2 other drops like hoard items, crystals, etc.)

Going through every creature type like this is a long and tedious affair, but it needs to be done anyway. Conveniently, a loot table review is in the near future. Hopefully this will be used to rebalance the rewards of specific mobs to bring them in line with thier purpose for existing in the game world, rather than simply to appease the "we demand loot" crowd.

If you are wondering how this fixes the disparity between Mr. PerfectFusionburnMultiFlamebomb and Mr. Pointystick it doesn't. It simply limits the vast pool of rewards Mr. Flamebomb can garner from a single site. If he wants specific types of techs or forms or other loot drops, he will have to actually travel around the world and fight different enemies, some which he may not be so great at killing quite so effortlessly (if certain drops only come frommagic resistantor massive damage 1 hitting mobs, for example, which Mr. Pointystick can shrug off due to high armor, hp, parry skill and a big fat shield). Any further parity will have to come from school and ability tweaks or even changes to multiclassing.

Drev

[Kwinn]

Snow,

30 minutes or so, 30 kills 19 usable items with some value 1 comp, 12 trophies, 3 ornaments, 3 hoard items. That's pretty damned decent IMO. In fact, its a damned sight better than what I am getting single killing purple necroflies with the same number of kills over same amount of time. 2-3 wings, half a dozen ornaments and nothing one damned thing else?

Looks to me like yer argument that single class hunters dont get good loot is as leaky as seive.