Lack of Punishment from Tulga

[Jayne]

Jayne<-----Heavy Sigh

AFRPaladin who are you? You are saying that TG has logs to everything and have not punished Pil and Thor properly or to an extent that you would like to see. So we are supposed to just take your word for it?

How do we know that TG didn't do more punishment? Now you want us to assume they didn't. Give me a break. You also want us, the community, to chastise them in game. Why should we do that when I have personally witnessed members of there former guild, whom kicked them out, talking with them and inviting them to community hunts. They are obviously not worried, and they are directly effected by this.

And you keep saying these logs prove of Pil and Thor's guilt. But as I pointed out the is 3 people in this household and we have no proof who was actually behind the keyboard comitting the crime. So if you want a ban then advocate banning them all.

Jayne

[LaughingOtter]

I am not condining nor asking for chaos to become a lynch mob...
...ostracize them from the commuity if at all possible.

***
I have said nothing about pressuring tulga to give vice his stuff back...
...Tulga can decide to enforce the eula or allow people to go unpunished as they see fit.
...I merely want to emplore them and emplore you to support me in wanting to see Pilwyn and Thormor more appropriatly Punished.

You're contradicting yourself inthe samepost.

That aside, Jayne raises a good point. Who are you, that we should simply accept your assertion blindly? Viceroy was wronged, as was the third person in this house. They have the right to ask for a harsher punishment - not an unknown third party.

[imported_tjl]

And you keep saying these logs prove of Pil and Thor's guilt. But as I pointed out the is 3 people in this household and we have no proof who was actually behind the keyboard comitting the crime. So if you want a ban then advocate banning them all.
Jayne

not quite true. sure they all fall under the same umbrella, but they all "talk" differently ingame.. and it was plainly obvious who was sitting at the keyboard when it all went down. im done with this thread however. the facts are there, interpret them as you all wish. I just wish this whole thing never happened.

[imported_GhostRdr]

You also want us, the community, to chastise them in game. Why should we do that when I have personally witnessed members of there former guild, whom kicked them out, talking with them and inviting them to community hunts. They are obviously not worried, and they are directly effected by this.

Jayne

Hmm, not sure who you saw but everyone in guild will have nothing more to do with them. I myself have them on Ignore and am invisible to them . Now when I'm on hunts with community members, I can't help it if they invite pil that is their rright to do so, but that in no way means I invited him or conversed with him. Just in case you were implying me jayne.

[Jayne]

Nope is was not you Ghost and nor am I saying whom. The point is that some of your guild are not on the same page as you guys apparently.

But to clarify what your saying. If you all are truly against dealing with these people in anyway, then you should exclude yourself from any group that has included them. I mean if you truly want to strike. Also these folks have had many problems even before this. You chose to keep them in your guild despite all those problems. That was your decision. And despite all that Vice took a chance and gave his password to a household that included those two people.........

Torvos- I find it hard to believe that you personally have looked at these logs. I have a relative that works for tulga and I can't even do that. So from my standpoint, that is also hear say. The other thing you all are just not wanting to accept is the fact that if there is a chat log with two people conversing, why do you assume that two people are actually doing it. Has it occurred to you that the same person maybe doing this wholeconversation on there own to try throwing someoneoff the trail???? I know I can do that when my two computers are side by side.

Thats my whole point we have no conclusive proof. Now if it was one person and one account and one household then it would be very easy.

Lastly, I feel for the victum of all this. He is a good friend and an asset to our shard and our lives. Does all the has or hasn't transpired warrant him leaving? I think not. But he has to do what makes him comfortable. Heck I am personally surprised he himself hasn't gone to all the hunts and made it know in chat and in MP all that has happened. He could be doing alot of advertising, of course that maybe considered harassment and may be against some other rules, I don't know.

Jayne

[Viceroyx]

The conclusive proof argument just doesn't hold water, because there is more than one person in an household.

By the same logic that suggests, I am responsible for what happens to me if i share my password. That should also hold to the wrongdoers. Thus, if your account is involved in wrongdoing, which to me, it is a fact that pilwyn and thormor's acccount were involved (regardless of who may or not may have been at the cpu)..thenthey should face some music. The ppunishment shouldn't be a crime that leaves them better off (err returning 3g, when they stole over 6g plus other stuff). That's how idiotic the Tulga response has been in terms of punishment.

However, the circumstancial evidence (as opposed to the facts) says the two respective parties were at their respective cpus. Since neither hid their tracks and both had loot on them when Tulga investigated. Thus, the circumstancial evidence suggestions two accounts were trying to benefit, not just one.

The other circumstancial evidence, which was their explainations. BOTH claimed it had to be a hacker, both backed up each other's ridiculous lies.. Even beforewe had the facts, we were capable of reasoning what happened...The guild had already booted them both, before we learned that both accounts were 100% involved. Their guilt was that obvious.

I am fairly happy about this thread, becausethrough it, the guilty got at least some of what they deserved..some sort of punishment (public shame if little else), even if not from Tulga. At least most know now who and what they're dealing with.

And for Tulga, they get what they deserve. I'm sure more dollars will be lost over this from our guild alone, then if they would have done the right thing and punished the right parties..

[Viceroyx]

Jayne,

I respect your comments, but given that you yourself have complained about double dealings by one of these parties and at the time claimed, you wouldn't deal with them anymore, shows not only their consistently poor behavior, but also that you or I or anyone can get upset by their actions. The fact that something happened to you, or someone else, and me..suggests the actions are repeated. Some lessons in life are learned through punishment, not coddling someone who shows no remorse and a pattern for poor behavior.

Just my thoughts.

[Jayne]

I don't disagree with you there Vice. YES lessons are learned thru punishment. And you can ask my son in game if you ever meet him. Because I do punish. My son would NEVER think of doing such a thing much less do something like this. Why, because I would do the same to him that I do to Vet Abominations....need I say more.

Which is why I mentioned earlier that there is more to this problem then some stealing in a game. Its the other issues of stealing period from your own brother. Using them to get something from a game. Heck maybe we should tell everyone where they live??? Maybe there one of my neighbors and I need to lock down my stuff in my garage and house.

Jayne

[LaughingOtter]

My brother and I didn't have MMOs when we were teenagers, but if one of us had done something like this to the other, my folks would have grounded the offender from the computer for a month. If there is a 13 year-old in the house, there has to be a parental figure there as well - are they absent, uncaring, or uninformed?

My stance is simply thatit sounds like Tulgadid all that could be done to mitigate the damages you suffered, Viceroy, without going so far as to encourage someone else to fake an issue like this in order to swindle someone. I do not want to see you leave over this, but neither do I want to see a community where an innocent person could be blacklisted, shunned, and driven out on the say-so of one or two people. Even though I'm satisfied Pilwyn & Thormor are guilty, the next person may not be. Even though I'm sure you were ripped off, the next person maybe trying to pull a fast one.

[imported_tjl]

Torvos- I find it hard to believe that you personally have looked at these logs. I have a relative that works for tulga and I can't even do that. So from my standpoint, that is also hear say. The other thing you all are just not wanting to accept is the fact that if there is a chat log with two people conversing, why do you assume that two people are actually doing it. Has it occurred to you that the same person maybe doing this wholeconversation on there own to try throwing someoneoff the trail???? I know I can do that when my two computers are side by side.

you missed my point, or i failed to make it clear in my last post.

im not talking about tulga's logs, im talking about guild members chat logs who were online when this occured. It was obvious by the way the person was chatting. people all don't chat alike. the smiles they use, the greetings they preferr... as i said in my last post it was obvious who was sitting at the keyboard, regardless of what name they were currently under. and these chats were not between people who live under the same roof, they were two different people. the pieces all fall together in the puzzle when the chat evidence is compared to the timeline. evidence that I cannot post because it is not on my harddrive, as I was not online when it happend.

[Jayne]

Exactly, its not on your harddrive, nor is it on mine....

But it must be on someones? So where is it?

Jayne

[AFRPaladin]

Laughing Otter, I fail to see a contradiction there. There is a difference between a lynch mob and a community deciding to ostracize somone. When you refer to lynch mobs I think of people KSing, pulling a bunch of mobs and generally harrassing them. By ostrasizing them, I mean for the community to not have any dealing with them, ie. no PLing, no trading, no helping them in anyway. Much the way akrabu is dealt with nowadays, without the harrassing in MP. Tulga does have the right to enforce the EULA as they see fit, however we as players have a right to not only disaggree with them but to make posts like this to voice our dissagreement.

As to my name, I am in the Dark Council and I do not feel comfortable revealingmy nameat this point in time. I also apologize to Viceroyx for talking about the Loggs for i have just something from him asking me not reference them or talk about them, I just realized this btw. Vice, I am sincerely sorry for bringing that up.

[Guinness]

Since ViceroyX is now actively posting in this thread, I wanted to let him know that despite what happened I hope he sticks around. Like others, I've chatted with him a lot doing boss mobs this past while and would certainly miss Vice being around.

Something worth considering:
-We do know for certain that the thieves stole a rare item and sold it - an item which is very easy to track, even by players. For those of you who don't play on chaos, 2 of these bows existed at the time, one of which is in my vault, the other (Vice's) has my crafter tag on it, meaning that it is obvious who the item was stolen from. Furthermore, the item was sold in the morning - when is the last time you saw something that rare sold in the morning? Sounds like one of those not so bright criminals you see on Cops. Assuming the thieves came up some elaborate plan and faked conversation is giving them way too much credit.

On another note:

I think tomorrow I'll fly into Toronto and steal the CN Tower, then head to Mexico and see if anybody wants to buy it. Nobody will ever catch me...anybody have a really big truck I can borrow for a little while?

[Jaraiden]

Kumu and the others are correct. The good thing is that TulgAE took some actions to alleviate the results of that shared computer.

Giving others access to the computer or papers means risking that log-ins and passwords will be found.

Unfortunately it happens, like to A'sasha and her adult dragon. The player made a hatchling and re-leveled.

[Machivelli]

I too hope you stick around Vice. Though you and I haven?t adventured together since the days of keeping Bhalz alive out in the CS on Shadow, I?ve always respected you as one of the more honorable and respectful players in the game. Would be a shame to loose you over what these other two thieves have done. All I can say about them is ? Karma is a **********!

[Jayne]

Well this post has gone far enough. A few of us have direct knowledge and a few of us just hear say.

AFR - Now there are logs and Vice didn't want them discussed or mentioned. Why? I have no idea, but that lends me to believe there is more to the story, or maybe TG requested that these things remain undisclosed. In elther case I am not privy to these logs. And if I don't personally witness them, then I can have no opinion on them whether good or bad

In closing, theres not much more that can be said.

Jayne

[BabyBoom]

Jayne, I don?t mean this to sound too harsh, but you are one of the most circular writers I have ever seen?.honestly
First, the existence of the logs was never a debate, anyone familiar with the situation knows they exist. The only thing was that information about them was not to be discussed, whatever the reason may be. Unfortunately, they happened to be mentioned.
The point of this thread was to rally support assuming what we said was a fair depiction of what went on, not if what we were depicting was true or not. As an example, we are asking if you believe someone that has robbed a bank should be sentenced to jail or not. We are not asking if you believe the person robbed the bank, but if the sentence is appropriate assuming the crime was committed. It is up to the third party (Tulga in this case) to determine if there was a crime not Jayne or the Dark Council.
Thus, to say it one last time, we merely want to know if you assume the scenario we laid out is true, would you agree that the punishment was a little lax???? If you need a refresher on the scenario we put out please refer to my earlier post or Vice?s.

[AFRPaladin]

Kumu, ifa player violates the EULA it isGROUNDS forbanishment, however, that doesnt mean that everyperson who violates it should be banned. There should be varying degrees of punishment for the various violations of breaching the EULA. Many players violate the EULA in the same way as vice did. I am sure many of these have been either reported or noticed by Tulga. There is no blanket ruling or mandatory minimum punishment for breaking the EULA. Every case is taken on an individual basis. Just because someone violates the EULA doesnt mean banishment, however, if they violate it in the way that Pilwyn and Thormor have they should be banned.

[Jayne]

LOL, circular? If circular means I have an opinion or that I don't make rash decisions based on only a few sides of a story.....then I guess I am.

You say this:

"The point of this thread was to rally support assuming what we said was a fair depiction of what went on, not if what we were depicting was true or not. "

If that was the point of this thread and that I need to read your comments, why did you not originate the post? It was made on the 14th and you responded on the 18th.....in my opinion that is circular. And in your first sentence you say "rally support ASSUMING what said was a fair depiction" Perhaps we don't assume anything

Here is what we read when this was posted, you tell me where that message is in here?

"2 weeks ago 2 people conspired together to get into another persons account without their knowledge and sell a valuable item and take their Gold. 24 hrs after this incedent all the facts were known about who did what and where the money went. So far the only punishment given to these 2 theives have been letters of warning. Our guild has kicked these 2 people out since we dont trust them anymore. The reason I am writing this is because the should be banned from this game because the did get the username and password from the files of another player and stole money and sold equipment. It has been 2 weeks tulga has promised that more punishment was on the way. Since the facts were known within 24 hrs of the activity I fail to see why it should take so long to take action against these people. I am calling for Pilwyn and Thormor to be banned from the game for theivery. "

Now AFR said only punishment was letters of warning which is not true because right after that he/she says they banned them from guild. Well thats punishment in my eyes.

Then go on to say they should be banned from game, YES I AGREE! But I don't just end it there, all should be banned as Kumu stated. And sadly since we have that opinion and you don't agree you wanna fight about it? Sorry but you asked. You got an answer and you don't like it.But the fact is andsadly there are actually four people in the wrong.

1)The person who gave away his UN and password.

2)The person who received it and apparently was told to use it for some reason (A reason thatwe still don't know).

3)Thecharacter whom by name of Pilwyn that commited the crime.

4)And the accomplice character Thormor that commited the crime.

And finally on top of all that how in the world do you or I know more punishment wasn't given??? Do you have the right to know all the punishment given to a person or persons by TG?

Jayne

[AFRPaladin]

There is no need to shout Kumu I can see your text just fine without capitalizing an entire sentence.