Is selfishness helping the game?

[LaughingOtter]

I only wanted to highlight selfish thinking and the justification used for it.

Thanks everyone for helping me out! [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]

I hope it has helped you to understand and value your own selfish thinking. You don't get to wash your hands of it, Aamer. You're every bit as selfish as anyone else, and just as much a member of the vocal few.

Even wanting the game to prosper and thrive is a selfish desire because it is rooted in your own long-term pleasure seeking. [8-|]

[Nordico]

altruistic = Unselfish concern for the welfare of others

Just try it out - you'll love it ;-)

[Justa Mirage]

Actually.... we are forgetting another small and yet powerful group that actually bend the course of rivers...

The Exploiters!

Yes.... those evil nasty players that find ways to play the game as it wasn't intended, and by "claiming" that they are just using the tools they have been given within the game ruleset... actually cause a lot of the major changes the game has undergone:

Nerfs to ELARS who were accelerating in levels quicker than the devs could control

Nerfs to crafters to stop them from making tier 3 double and then triple teched jewelry, weapons, armor to assist the 40th levelreaver walk up to a dark stalker and wipe the pavement with him.

Nerfs to abilities that when combined with other abilities, allowed for multi-thousand point attacks. (which may not have been an exploit, but an oversight by the devs for allowing specials to combine with flurry)

and the recent latest nerf to Pawn Brokers to stop the 24/7 mining of gems / other materials for a source of money.

I think this is an unsung group of people who have made many changes happen in the game due to their innovations.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

well I'm 100% sure it wasnt my fault, because everything I ever championed got popped like a big yellow pimple

oh yeah been in Peru drinking pisco sours and cussing llamas

I tried to bargain with some fella selling bamboo cowboy hatson mancora beach, but he wouldnt trade for arbotus gullets. I was [Censored]ed.

chau

NimK

Heck yea Nimk - I wonder. Am I one of those "vocal" few? I'm pretty vocal here on the forums and in game, am I "one of the few"...

I certainly don't have a dev's ear - cuz half the stuff I'd like to see changed never gets the light of day at least (possibly more like 90%). I've sent several Pms to devs with no response..so no..don't have their ear...

And everytime I see someone stand on a soapbox and vent in game I send them here, to post their opinions, where I feel they MIGHT get read by a dev, or at hte very least, supported and discussed by other players - instead of just venting in dragon chat to noone important and nothing that can help :).

I send them here, but they don't want to go here - so who is to blame? ME? HA! SURE!

[Aamer Khan]

Kumu, dude!

Your just pissed in general, and what you just said makes no sense. If you wish to use me as a whipping post, by all means fire away. [:D]

I accomplished exactly what I wanted to.

I highlighted the idea that selfish thinking has been a part of driving force behind changes in Horizons, and got help in highlighting the justifications that some use for doing it. I sure didn't expect anyone to jump up and admit they are selfish... why that would be silly.

This makes me selfish ... how?
( egotistical perhaps, for daring to lead the thread in a particular direction, maybe )

[LaughingOtter]

This makes me selfish ... how?

Why, your selfishness is driving you to cloak yourself in altruism in order to rouse public opinion against the people who stand up and admit their selfishness. By denigrating them, you denigrate the causes they champion, thus making your cause look better by comparison. [;)]

I don't think you were looking for an answer to a question. I think you were looking for a scapegoat - the vocal few who put their selfish desires ahead of the good of the game. It's hogwash, because you are being just as selfish and just as anxious for the design team to listen to your feedback as anyone. I think you're a good guy, but your approach is intellectually dishonest.

[Cloe]

*Takes picture of the class*

Retakes available next month.

This whole threadlooks like a kangaroo court instigated by the Kangaroo.

Or a Rant in the discussions forum??

What in the world you guys?

So the rest of the group can follow along how about some links to threads that give some supporting basis or irc logs that reflect any of this stuff. This looks like the holiday dinner you read about and think... "Can't pick your relatives"

[Jaraiden]

What matters most is HOW the changes are asked for.

Are they lore based so game mechanics support lore and support more character immersion to reflect that lore?

Are they player convenience based to make the game more fun for the toons?

Are they logical? As in should non-dragon built anvils give a scaleforge bonus? Should non-dragon machines be near Dralk?

Ultimately it is up to TulgAE in their evaluation of how the change would affect, or not effect, Horizons. Obviously change is needed to correct developer oversights - as players will find them and players will exploit them.

[belezar]

Every person that plays the game, have suggestions that would better the game, not just for them, but for many others. They bounce the ideas back and forth, via the market channel, or here. If the game didn't evolve *change* , it would become stagnant and you would lose more players as well. It is up to the dev team how they want to handle changes etc., in the scope of things.


The door to our world is a revolving door, as much as I hate to see my friends leave, more new players come in, and new friends. Its the nature of the beast.

Correct Horizons should evolve, I don't think the OP was arguing against that. That was NOT the question posed by the OP, rather he postulated were requests for change and the results of these requests having a positive impact on current and future membership. Essentially the viability of Horizons future success.

The feedback spectrum could be viewed as
1. TG listens to it's customers every single whim and implements ALL suggestions, with numerous shards/instances to accomodate every single possible player desire.
2. TG does not listen to it's customers.
3. somewhere in between.

I believe point No 3 would be the common sense choice. If TG listens to it's customers then it's customers who voice an opinion that get heard. As such do you think those opinions that influnce the decison making process are improving (attracting more subscribers) Horizons or not.

Some Horizons changes have been positive Dragons, Lairs, Crystals. Some have been regressive group xp changes, mithril alloy, boars mask and proposed cross skilling changes. It's the degree of enjoyment impact on the balance of total player base (including the silent multitude) that determines overall success in the give and take flux of game changes.

On this score Horizons is treading water at best.

[Aamer Khan]

All hail kumu!

[belezar]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]belezar wrote:I believe point No 3 would be the common sense choice. If TG listens to it's customers then it's customers who voice an opinion that get heard. As such do you think those opinions that influnce the decison making process are improving (attracting more subscribers) Horizons or not.

From just playing on Order server, I would say that it has been a resounding success. Nearly every day there have been new players logging in, asking questions. It's pretty obvious that something is being done right.

It seems pretty obvious to you does it? That "something" is being done right. Nothing like a good gut feel based on anecdotial evidence is there lol.

Here's the facts Jack, Horizons for all it's improvements and your vague impressions of new player influx remains firmly with 2 NA shards and one (by the sounds of it) unhealthy European shard.

I would consider that treading water as you don't have significant numbers to even contemplate an additional server.

Some Horizons changes have been positive Dragons, Lairs, Crystals. Some have been regressive group xp changes, mithril alloy, boars mask and proposed cross skilling changes. It's the degree of enjoyment impact on the balance of total player base (including the silent multitude) that determines overall success in the give and take flux of game changes.

What one person considers "Bad", another applauds.

If you bothered to comprehend what I was attempting to say, you would note that I was not arguing specifically wheteher any changes were good or bad (my bias obviously evident), but whether on the blance of all changes significant new players are not only returning but staying.

On this score Horizons is treading water at best.

I think that this statement is not based in any fact whatsoever. David has said many times that the player base is increasing. SLOWLY, but it is an increase. My personal observations just from order seem to coincide with his comments.

Actually it's based on the fact that with ongoing changes good or bad, Horizons remains a marginal product existing on three servers at most, with no mention of expansion at all. Hence my comments on treading water at best.

Your brown nose tends to coincide with DB's comments thats about it. Awwww :( and ad homenim I couldn't resist. [:P]

[imported_Frith-Rae]

Actually it's based on the fact that with ongoing changes good or bad, Horizons remains a marginal product existing on three servers at most, with no mention of expansion at all.

Yea I'm with Kumu on this one - if they even mention they are doing an expansion at this point, that we'd have to pay for, I think there'd be mostly mutiny and quitting. You dont take a game struggling, as you're putting it (and in part I do agree with you there), and ask for the people still subbing to then put out more money into a product they aren't all that trusting of (a good majority I'd say) right now :).

So yea, I think it would be bad for them to mention an expansion that cost money anyway. Unless it was some miracle expansion that reworked the engine or something...but uhh yea...

And on a related but side note: SWG is merging their servers.

[Deth]

And on a related but side note: SWG is merging their servers.

Not true. First I heard about this so looked and first link I found has a dev killing it as a rumor.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/b...ing&page=3

[Justa Mirage]

Boy, I love how this thread evolved [:(]


But... after reading most of the posts the only thing I can really add to this thread and keep it on-topic is the fact that Horizons is more or less a religion with 2 or more factions trying to wrestle for control of its flock of followers.

You have traditionallists that follow the fact that if you play the game as intended, not trying to find the "I win" button in 2 months (p.s. DDO beta players maxed out themax level in less than 2 weeks, just FYI).

Then you have thestaunch, hard core players that have 100 in everything, even classes that probably don't even exist yet... and want changes to go their way, because any change that cuts into making it easier for them to be the "Gods in the Game" that everyone will look up to, will be balked at.

Changes to quell money making, leveling, acquisition of comp tech parts, or just plain ease of getting a quest complete are a daily thing. IfHorizonshad these changes in place that we have today, back 2 years ago... there may never have been a chapter 11, live and learn, makebad choices, fix the errors... players would KNOW that when they got to 30th and then 90th level they wouldbe doing quests for ROP / AROP, there would be the content and lore that an upstart MMORP should have at release.

Instead wehave a few major factions (Dragons, the "haves", the "have nots", and "the noobies") all wanting "something" changed that will make their enjoyment here even better.No one is saying it's a bad change... but the different factions will find it bitter to swallow if it doesn'tbenefit themat the least :)

Take for example my request in this thread: I want a TParrival pad and / or a TP ring in Sanctuary bay. That's pretty selfish... but... for "ME" it means getting my wood products stocked in silos faster and construction would be much easier if I could get to my plot quicker without having to run from Tishlar or Dalimond. It also means forothers, the ability to harvest maple and use their disksat the portal. If my woodshop wasn't there,and on Unity, their Sanctuary bay didn'thave any good machines, this addition would beuseless.

[Jayne]

I guess thats the difference between I and most players that are accustomed to these Mmorphs as you call them. I come here and play the game as it is. If things change then ok. But I never look at stuff and say "fix this and fix that". I just do what makes me happy and if I can't find anything to do that makes me happy then I will leave.

Jayne

[Fratricide]

I guess thats the difference between I and most players that are accustomed to these Mmorphs as you call them. I come here and play the game as it is. If things change then ok. But I never look at stuff and say "fix this and fix that". I just do what makes me happy and if I can't find anything to do that makes me happy then I will leave.

Jayne

I second that [D]

[imported_Frith-Rae]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Frith-Rae wrote:
And on a related but side note: SWG is merging their servers.



Not true. First I heard about this so looked and first link I found has a dev killing it as a rumor.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/b...ing&page=3

OOOPS MY GOOF!!

I got my initials and game wrong..

Its actually EQII :)....

my bad, but still..point is the same....

And the letter from the Dev guy starts with "Thanks to all of you, EQII is growing.." and ends with "But we're still merging servers..." ;).

[Dravatar]

If you want an answer to the question the thread title poses, the answer is (as with most things), it depends.

There are a lot of RL economic rules that have a base in selfishness (or "pride of ownership" at least.) For the game, they apply similarly. A couple of suggestions have already been posed, such as having a TP ring and landing pad in a prime position for a craft. For the player(s) actually invovled in the craft that ask for the pad and teleporter, it appears to be selfish. If, however, they bring to market needed items that benefit an entire shard, it may take on a less selfish appearance.

The key in the above senario is which is the greater good. The business/profit of a few players or the added economic benefit to the shard. In my opinion, there is no player that can make such a decision, only the devs. I think it impossible for any player to truly look objectively since they have already chosen a favorite character combination as their character. If that is the case, then most suggestions would have some sort of selfish base. Everyone may not want to improve the situation of others, but they have a vested interest in improving their own situation.

It seems that selfishness, then, is one of the primary causes of suggestions. By having a wide choice of suggestions, devs have a wide choice to things to evaluate. Many people asking for similar things show them what changes affect the most players.

Just because a suggestion is made, does not mean it will be taken. I see no ill coming from people making suggestions, no matter how well-founded (or ill-founded) they may be. By improving their own situations, players improve the shard, and the game. As long as the suggestions taken and implemented are done in an equitable and non-biased manner to the good of the game as a whole, I support any reason that causes players to make suggestions.

[Phillip]

s.s.d.d.

[Valornyx]

I think this thread to me answers itself - with the answer coming out as a NO.

Although in principle the idea of different ideas and opposing viewpoints counteracts stagnation, in actual practice it seems that a lot of the "vocal few" care less about what they believe is good for the game and more about attacking and waylaying and tripping up their opponents.

And I say opponents because it really does seem that way a lot of the time. I've heard good intelligent comments from people of both sides of different arguments, but there is always the opposition waiting to jump out and attack and try to beat the other posters.

If I was a dev I would not bother to read half the stuff that people post on the forums as half the time it seems like the whole point of posting is not to make a point in favor of the game - but just score a point.

As such, the intelligent meaningful posts get tossed out with the rest of the trash.

It seems to me that the point of the post has been achieved - to create an argument about nothing and give the "vocal few" the chance to trade barbs and do contest with each other once again.

Is this good for the game - NO.