Reciprocity

[Valornyx]

I think that bipeds should be able to use dragon machines in the way that dragons can use biped ones.

Most of us understand that for a long time dragons could not have their lairs and so were forced to have a biped plot or nothing. Part of what eventuated from that was that dragons can (for example) craft scales on an anvil.

I think that a scaleforge should equally be able to be used as an anvil by a biped.

Now you could argue that since there are now lairs and scale forges (as well as theanvils) - you should remove the ability of dragons to use anvils and limit them to scaleforges.. I would disagree with this for the reason that most people have only one account, but experiment with both bipeds and dragon characters. One account means one plot/lair. This means that if you prefer to have a lair - any biped alt is out of luck as he/she cannot use all the machines and has to go running off to another one somewhere else.

If you remove the ability of dragons to use anvils - the opposite occurs.

Subsequently - I would like to propose that dragons and bipeds can use all each others machines (as they overlap).

[Dhalin]

If you look at the sheer SIZE of those machines, I can't really envison a Biped using a Dragon Stonecutter for example... the image I get in my head looks absolutely silly... and a Scaleforge.. if you look closely at it, its nothing like an anvil at all. In fact, I'm kinda curious as to how a dragon can use a biped anvil in place of That big machine....the only one I could really picture a biped using, would be a Smelter, and maybe an Essence Channeler... maybe a desk if they used a stepladder lol.

--Dhalin

[cattoy]

If you look at the sheer SIZE of those machines, I can't really envison a Biped using a Dragon Stonecutter for example... the image I get in my head looks absolutely silly... and a Scaleforge.. if you look closely at it, its nothing like an anvil at all. In fact, I'm kinda curious as to how a dragon can use a biped anvil in place of That big machine....the only one I could really picture a biped using, would be a Smelter, and maybe an Essence Channeler... maybe a desk if they used a stepladder lol.

--Dhalin

Size shouldn't matter in this case. If you're going to bring it up, then you're going to eventually explain how a dryad can borrow a half giant's armor or tools.

I agree with the premise that machines should be universal. at least the ones that overlap

[AA0]

Dragons are supposed to lose the ability to use anvils as scaleforges soon.

[Seranthor]

Sure AA0, but when? and until that time why not allow bipeds to use the scaleforges as anvils.

[Vandellia]

Bottom line the devs either will or they wont it matters not what we think if it dosent fit into the current world view so its pretty pointless. I do agree taht what is good for the goose should be good for the gander but its not and probably remain that way

[AA0]

if they get the chance to add anvils to scaleforges, then they could just as easy in that time and remove scaleforge from anvils and make it work properly

[Talitha]

Hm. Taking away our ability to use anvils will make it hella difficult to get craft-leveling done in the field. Unless a lot more dragons have completed machines/lairs open to the public in those areas...say hello to a lotmore disk-hauling and flapping around carrying loads of materials home to make levels.

There wouldn't be a single town where you could craft anything, outside of Chiconis and Dralk. Again, unless you were lucky enough someone had a lair with the machine you needed and was kind enough to let folks use it.

I just hope they don't decide that dragons can use NO biped craft machines...

Wanna haul that diskload of sandstone all the way over to Dralk just for lair bits? O_O ouch...

[Deth]

True never thought about it but places like the Abandoned Island and Wisp Island would then be useless to dragons as well as Fire Island.

[Goriax]

I was trying to remember the way it was for the first year. I think we could use community machines for first stage refining but we couldn't use machines on private plots or things like anvils to make scales. If they only went that far we would still get some utility out of abandoned island although we'd still have to haul everything somewhere else for the final stage.

Of course if they get hard nosed about it and say that dragons can't even use community biped machines then life is going to get hard.

If what we have now is not going to be the permanent state of affairs -- if they're going to take away our ability to use biped machines --I see no reason to give bipeds anything. If it IS going to be the permanent state of affairs then of course bipeds should be allowed to use dragon machines.

[AA0]

I think you are allowed to use the proper machines, but not the makeshift types like an anvil being a scaleforge, which are completely different.

[Seranthor]

Wanna haul that diskload of sandstone all the way over to Dralk just for lair bits? O_O ouch...

True never thought about it but places like the Abandoned Island and Wisp Island would then be useless to dragons as well as Fire Island.

I support letting everyone use machines of the other, with the exception of the use of anvils as scaleforges since at this time there is no provision for letting bipeds use scaleforges as anvils. THIS was what was changed before, and THIS is what never should have been allowed. Since the beginning of time all common machines have been usable by everyone regardless of race.

[LaughingOtter]

Dragons are supposed to lose the ability to use anvils as scaleforges soon.

I don't think so, because when dragons first began using anvils it was repeatedly stated that this had been the plan from the beginning - it was just never implemented...

http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=54936

Per Manga:

Dragons were always intended to use Anvils, we will try and get these added to our external notes soon.

[AA0]

Amon has also stated before when lairs are finished and dragons have the access to machine, they anvils will be reverting back again.

Both dev statements can't be right

[Deth]

No the both can be right. maybe the line should have been. Dragons were always intended to use Anvils, UNTIL laircrafting is put in.

[Talitha]

Me myself and I are not completely opposed to Dragons not being able to use biped anvils. But as I said before, I think thisrequires the proviso that there be Dragon-usable machinery somewhere within a reasonable distance of the resource field. And by reasonable, I don't mean "on the other side of the continent," as that's a painful distance to try and drag a disk. Even with road bonuses, that's darn far, and there's always monsters who'd like to munch on my disk-lugging tail. Dragon Crafter leveling is slow enough already thanks. (Yes, I know Lairshaping is even worse.)

If Dragons were not meant to have use of biped machines...it's just miserable. What with laircrafting being resource-heavy the way it is, you are kind of required to use a disk to get any reasonable amount of work done per run. And it's already a bit of a chore just getting to Crystalshaping machines--port portwalk walkport lag lag, and pray you have a port-able disk.

So if Dragons may only use Scaleforges to do their anvilcraft, I think there must be a lot more Scaleforges in the world first. Not everyone is going to havetheir lairs all built up, and not every resource field is going to have someone's lair nearby. I'd like there to be a Scaleforge parked at the smelter in the resource field, for a maybe-example--doesn't even have to be a whole cave system. ^_^; Or at least one close to a place I can drag a disk (and not be beaten to death by ore golems running an eighty mile gauntletto Chiconis to craftscales).

Bipeds would indeed complain if they went to the plentiful Chiconis iron/silver fields, for example, and found only Dragon machines they couldn't use. Orperhaps the higher-level resources near Dralk. I think I'd feel the same way if my attempts to level DCrafter were cut down in such a manner.

I don't meant to start a war or anything, just trying to think of the repercussions in terms of time and enjoyment as a result of very blanket changes. If there is a way to continue with Off-Limits Anvils wherein we still have local Scaleforges to replace them, I'm all for it. But otherwise...I'd rather leave it as-is for now.

Just my two coppers asthe youngling here. ^_^; *goes back to dragging laircraft bits around*

[st]

[LaughingOtter]

At this point in the game, there are no Imperial scaleforges anywhere outside of the craft caves in the starter towns, Dralk & Chiconis. Removing the ability to use anvils would seriously impact all dragons, but would also set up a considerable roadblock for new dragon players. Not the inconvenience of having to drag disk all the way back to the training cave to use a scale forge, though; I doubt very many will do that when it's easier to port to Skalkaar and have all the T1 scale supplies you need and a scale forge, all in one spot, with only a short run to port to NT & speak to the trainer.

Players will find the path of least resistance. It's our nature. If dragons can't use anvils, expect to see Skalkaar overrun with dragons levelling T1. I'm sure new players will love having to fight for nodes in the bloody tutorial...

[imported_Frith-Rae]

...but would also set up a considerable roadblock for new dragon players. Not the inconvenience of having to drag disk all the way back to the training cave to use a scale forge, though; I doubt very many will do that when it's easier to port to Skalkaar and have all the T1 scale supplies you need and a scale forge, all in one spot, with only a short run to port to NT & speak to the trainer.

Players will find the path of least resistance. It's our nature. If dragons can't use anvils, expect to see Skalkaar overrun with dragons levelling T1. I'm sure new players will love having to fight for nodes in the bloody tutorial...

Um, perhaps you are forgetting LO, but they didn't make "Anvils" dragon useable until a few months ago - post-merge. A great number of us "grew up" with no anvil use, only scaleforges.

I see both sides, I'm not arguging to pull or not to pull anvil usage for dragons.

I am saying that for the first year or so of this game's life, more than half of its existance, anvils were not dragon-friendly.

[LaughingOtter]

Oh, I know. I remember those days also. [;)]

The new players don't. To them, it will be an anti-dragon nerf and an attempt to slow down the game.

[Justa Mirage]

Actually it would bring some dragon's lairshaping to a halt.

You need corridors to get around in your lair... best place to get these materials is in Parsinia / Nuthala / Kion volcano

The only dragon provided machines around are a crystal shaper and a scholar shop on Chaos...

as mentioned in this thread, try dragging SandStone, Bronze, and Dim Essence from LA to Chiconis or Dralk (and the expense)

This will drive lairshapers (minus crystal shaper) to new trismus to use the dragon machines there for tier 1 materials... to the dismay of the new players having to fight adult dragons for resources.

again... the Bi-ped vs. Dragon argument will be that bi-peds have the upper hand due to the # of developed player plots near resources vs. Dragon Lair placement and ability to get machines installed in them.

For Bi-peds collecting the resources it will be much easier than the dragons having to drag it to a dragon hometown to process their materials.