War, economy, 'nerfs' Oh My!

[Kwinn]

I've seen a lot of threads lately concerning the Economy, or rather the lack of one, the 'nerfs' (dontcha just love that word?, almost as intelligent sounding as 'uber' :/) in the pipline and the total lack of the war that's supposed to be going on. I've been in Istaria well over 2 years now and have seen a lot of changes I thought were really knee-jerk reactions. I didn't agree with them then and don't agree with them now.

Remember when we first saw the Vielo? They had stocks of items we could not get any other way. Ok, I can live with that, especially when one considers that they had a very limited stock, they were expensive, they appeared in random locations and they would disappear without notice. Well, some folks complained that because of time zone differences they were left out. Valid complaint. The fix? Give the Vielo permanent residency and unlimited stock. What ecomony we had started swirling in the bowl right then and there. Wouldn't it have been easier to just randomize the timing of the Vielo's appearance? Then every time zone has a chance for first shot at the Vielo. Sure, some will complain even at this. Ever hear the phrases "Patience is a Virtue" or 'Wait your turn" ?

Remember when you could pawn your wares or loot in unlimited quantities without the price changing? Why did we do this? Two reasons come readily to mind. First was the Form and Tech Auction Madness. Thankfully this particular phenomenon has long ago died a natural death. The other reason? Well, with a permanent pack of Vielo with unlimitied stock it was to buy stuff from the Vielo, primarily Nadia's comps, what else? The fix? The pawnbrokers now only pay full price to a certain amount then the price paid falls away rapidly. Did it fix the economy? No but, it's swirling faster in the bowl. Did it slow down the shopping at Nadia? Not even a nudge. Wouldn't it have been easier to randomize the timing and location of Nadia's appearances and randomize the content and amount of her stock? Sure, some are gonna howl that the rich are gonna buy out all the good comps and either keep em or sell em for outragious sums. True, they'll buy em, they may stash em and they may sell em. And if someone pays that outragious sum...well... If Nadia is completely and utterly random think you for one minute that the hunters won't be out in force hunting those good comps? You bet they will, they can compete now and obtain a fair wage for risk taken and time invested during the hunt. And they will quickly make the buyers of Nadia's entire stock look very foolish.

Remember when Novians could be traded or sold? Sure, you had what you have now, folks buying and stripping plots for Novians. So what? They buy the plot fair and square don't they? Yes. As owner of the plot they can do with it as they wish can't they? Yes. Do they sometimes buy and strip plots containing shops near resource fields? Yes. Do this cause howls of anger? Yes. "Somebody bought So and So's plot and stripped it for Novians!" Jeez, you'd think the complainers here thought the plot and structures on it were theirs. Not so. I say that if the complainers are so worried about a given plot disappearing with it's shops and machines, then THEY should buy it. Already own a plot? Waah. Open another account and buy it, sell current plot and buy it. So what happened? Novians are now attuned. Did this slow down the buying and stripping of plots? Not a bit, sports fans. All it did was make the economy swirl faster in the bowl. Wouldn't it have been just as easy to leave the Novians as they were? At least we had some buying and selling happening.

Remember when there was a player base worthy of the name? Once upon a time, WE HAD NUMBERS! Now we don't. No numbers, no economy. We have a barter system at best now.

And then what economy we had reached the bottom of the bowl and disappeared from sight.

Remember when you first heard about the War? Then remember when you first said "What war?" What war we have is pretty much event based now. That ain't a war folks. I don't know what you'd call it but it ain't a war and that's for sure and for certain.

Remember when most, if not all, resource fields were guarded and had finishing machines nearby? IMO, this needs to return. And with a vengence. Remember the Golem Keepers? Bring em back and have em for every tier. Treant Keepers could be made, bring back the enraged wisps. Put mundane guards in ALL resource fields with a named Leader type Guard and the special guards. Put back the finishing machines. What will this do? First, it will resemble a war. Second, it will make crafting riskier and hopefully causing crafters to think twice about doing a job for free when they consider the risk. Ok, I know the pure crafters and low adventure crafters are going to scream bloody murder over this. Well, too bad boys and girls. Wars don't just inconvenience or cause risk to those who wish to participate. Wars are risky and inconvenient to EVERYONE! I have studied The Arts and Sciences of Warfare for over 30 years and I can tell you without hesitation that wars ALWAYS bring risk to non-combatants. So what's a crafter to do? Ask an adventurer to clear an area in the spawn. This works, it will give the crafter a 30-45 minute window to happily craft with little to no interference from the guards. The crafter could pay a little more attention to his surroundings. You know guards spawn there, watch out for em, if they get too close move. The crafter could also ask the adventurer to remain in the area as a bodyguard. Offer payment, services rendered etc. Often the adventurer will be satisfied with the loot he gets from killing the guards. All of this DOES require the adventurers in Istaria to be willing to help the crafters and I think most are willing. Of course, there will be times when adventurers are simply not available for guard duty. Kinda sounds like a real war doesn't it?


Remember when you got your first Death Penalty? Was sort of scary at first until it was discovered to be a paper tiger. Death and Death Penalties in Istaria are toothless. The proposed changes give em teeth and sharp ones at that. With the proposed Confectioner change, this may stimulate a resurgance in an economy on a very limited basis.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The Vielo weren't really broken at first, just needed some fine tuning. Well, The Vielo are 'fixed' now. The pawnbrokers were never broken but they sure as hell are now. The Novians weren't broken and the 'fix' didn't fix them but, it broke something else. The player base has shrunk, probably because 'broken' things were 'fixed'. The War has been broken since Gawd Knows When.

I fully understand that ya can't please all the people all the time. Judging from the threads I see, not much of anyone is pleased. The above is what I see as the reasons why. And yet we continue to pay our monthly fee to play a 'broken' game. Why? Certainly the Community is the finest bar none. And the promise this game holds, the potential if you will. Inspite of the 'fixes' and existing bugs it's still fun to play. I for one, think it's high time to address and enhance the game's strong points and stop fixing things that were never broken to begin with.

[Droth]

couple of thoughts yes add angry critters to the crafting areas. i've never been able to afford a plot or whatever these npcs you are talking about were selling so i cant say much about those. pawn brokers should rip you off bad like they do in real life and i really really think there needs to be item decay(really really bad) if items last for all time what's to keep the economy going?

[Peaches]

couple of thoughts yes add angry critters to the crafting areas. i've never been able to afford a plot or whatever these npcs you are talking about were selling so i cant say much about those. pawn brokers should rip you off bad like they do in real life and i really really think there needs to be item decay(really really bad) if items last for all time what's to keep the economy going?

I can see the need for items breaking, but, think about it, how difficult is it, at times, to get the comps you need for a suit of armor, or cargo gear, or whatever? It can be a very long time, depends on the drop rates. And, if your impatient, then you buy from the veilo. Ok, so I pay , for example, three gold for my suit of armor, and you want it to decay? As hard as it is to earn cash ingame, and please, don't tell me its easy, cuz it ain't. I hate spending my time, all day to earn cash I need to 1, support my gating fees with disk, 2, support my crafting gear and my adventure armor

If anything, put in so the items wear down but will never lose their ability to protect me as I am fighting. Not a hard thing to ask for, is it?

[Warsong]

Kwinn

After reading this and thinking about it you make alot of valid points as well as alot of sense. I dont want to sit here and write everything Im thinking (Not alot of time) But I agree and disagree on some points.

As always Great post and very well thought ideas.

Oh I used Nerf in my suggestion post and have to say it never did make much sense to me.

NERF : A trademark used for a variety of foam rubber toys.

[Helcat]

sorry Kwinn, but the pawn broker fix needed to be done,
and should have been fixed a long time ago. Pawn Brokers
became Istaria's version of the Welfare System.

[Rocinante]

Remember when Novians could be traded or sold? Sure, you had what you have now, folks buying and stripping plots for Novians. So what? They buy the plot fair and square don't they? Yes. As owner of the plot they can do with it as they wish can't they? Yes. Do they sometimes buy and strip plots containing shops near resource fields? Yes. Do this cause howls of anger? Yes. "Somebody bought So and So's plot and stripped it for Novians!" Jeez, you'd think the complainers here thought the plot and structures on it were theirs. Not so. I say that if the complainers are so worried about a given plot disappearing with it's shops and machines, then THEY should buy it. Already own a plot? Waah. Open another account and buy it, sell current plot and buy it. So what happened? Novians are now attuned. Did this slow down the buying and stripping of plots? Not a bit, sports fans. All it did was make the economy swirl faster in the bowl. Wouldn't it have been just as easy to leave the Novians as they were? At least we had some buying and selling happening.

I think you bring up a good point here. Perhaps the intended fix was to stimulate the economy. Since people opened up extra accounts to continue, this "fix" stimulated Tulga's economy.

Rocinante

[Droth]

I can see the need for items breaking, but, think about it, how difficult is it, at times, to get the comps you need for a suit of armor, or cargo gear, or whatever? It can be a very long time, depends on the drop rates. And, if your impatient, then you buy from the veilo. Ok, so I pay , for example, three gold for my suit of armor, and you want it to decay? As hard as it is to earn cash ingame, and please, don't tell me its easy, cuz it ain't. I hate spending my time, all day to earn cash I need to 1, support my gating fees with disk, 2, support my crafting gear and my adventure armor

If anything, put in so the items wear down but will never lose their ability to protect me as I am fighting. Not a hard thing to ask for, is it?

if the economy worked you could craft gear to sell and have that money comming in pretty good as people would actually need the items you could make where as now the only people that actually buy items(if they dont just learn to make them) are people that are new to the game(which are sparse) and even then once they get their items there is no need to ever buy anything again. i've played alot of games were things broke and they all worked out fine and had a more vibrate economy than this game which has crafting/the economy as one of its major selling points. also i'm not talking about boom they break your sol have a nice life i'm talking about items wear down on use for weapons and on hits for armor you can get them repaired/repair them yourself but the overall health of the item drops a little everytime you do untill it's eventually to shoddy to be usefull. that way a good set of armor would last you through the levels you needed it untill you got something better and maybe even last through someone else but eventually the item would be gone thus leaving an opening for an item to be made and sold. even at that rate more items would be pumped out than would be needed but atleast they would be needed. as for high level stuff if you are high enough level to need ..well high level stuff you will be high enough level to either craft really nice gear or if you only adventure get the parts people need for said nice stuff. the ways things are now the economy will never work it just stagnates. even if a wave of new players join with this expansion pack eventually it will just stagnate again and we'll be in the same leaky boat we are sloshing around in now :/
:edit: and think about it if items degrade with use is a cargo disk or cargo armor ever going to take any damage? picks axes sure as they get used but cargo armor never takes hits and cargo disk surely dont.
and for that matter if the economy actually worked there wouldnt be a need for pawn shops or these vielo things as you could actually make decent money again by selling things to other players. also i can hear people now Whah i may not be able to get the drops i need for items because they are hard to come by. well yes they are but if more people start playing because of the expansion/newly working economy there will be more of these things up for sale from players and once again you wont need npcs to fill the void. i'm also not suggesting we do all this at once as that would make life challenging again and some people hate that. get the economy working again with the gradual item damage get people crafting and selling again then phase out the pawns then when/if the player base picks up enough the veilo can go and all will be well and healthy again

[Aamer Khan]

Kwinn, I agree with much of your post. I don't agree about the PB. They became printers of money with no limits. And even if some chose not to use them that way, many did. A change WAS in order, but I do believe the devs went a good bit too far.

I do agree with the idea about the resource fields getting processing machines back and guards.

And I believe the Vielo were a stop gap measure that have outlived its usefulness. They make us opt for the easy way out.

BUT, let me repeat this one thought again...

The issues are complex, and no single idea will fix them. A combination of additions, subtractions and tweeking can indeed fix things.

[Kwinn]

Concerning Item Deacy. Items should wear out over time and use. Weapons, tools, armor, disks eveything. That being said, an item should have set amount of time or uses before it needs to be repaired. This should be readily visible to the player. "Dang, my armor is looking pretty beat up. I better get it fixed up before I go golem whackin today" Because if ya don't that armor WILL become useless in its primary function when the limit of its endurance is reached. Then you have the equivalent of wearing NO armor till you do get it fixed. That being said, techs should be active as long as the item is useful. Once the item becomes useless due to wear, tear, damage, time, whatever the techs become inactive until the item is repaired.

Ithink of your nicely teched mithril mining pick. Out there whackin ore or stone, either way yer really whackin stone and that thing is going to get dull to the point of being useless until its sharpened/repaired. Or the handle gets broken. Does this mean it's no longer teched? No. Does it mean the techs are degraded in any way? No. They are simply inactive until the pick is repaired.

[Kwinn]

Aamer,

I agree that no one thing put us where we are and no one thing will fix it. I addressed the several things I saw the prime culprits. Would changing them fix anything? Who knows? I think they would make things a bit better. It's a lead-pipe cinch it wouldn't make things worse

[Weston]

I can see the need for items breaking, but, think about it, how difficult is it, at times, to get the comps you need for a suit of armor, or cargo gear, or whatever? It can be a very long time, depends on the drop rates. And, if your impatient, then you buy from the veilo. Ok, so I pay , for example, three gold for my suit of armor, and you want it to decay? As hard as it is to earn cash ingame, and please, don't tell me its easy, cuz it ain't. I hate spending my time, all day to earn cash I need to 1, support my gating fees with disk, 2, support my crafting gear and my adventure armor

I agree with the original poster on nearly everything. I also think the PB change was good for the game. I can still earn money, just not as easily.

Now... I disagree with Peaches... I heartily think that Item Decay can be dealt with in one of two ways, taking into account Peaches' objections.

Method A: Let the items decay, losing their effectiveness gradually... BUT make it so that when they're deconstructed you get the original tech comps back. Shouldn't be a problem. - OR -

Method B: Implement a 'repair' skill similar to what you find in Oblivion, et. al., where with a small investment, a skilled craftsman (or YOU, for that matter) might restore the equipment to original condition. This would protect the original investment, but serve either as a small money sink for the cost of base materials used in the restoration process, or in the cost to pay a craftsman to do it for you.

Frankly, I'd prefer Method A, due to it's ease of use. The only thing one might be out is dye, and some of the base materials. Should be easy to implement this small change to the decon process... but Method B would be fine, too, inasmuch as I tend to be a skill-oriented crafer.. the more the merrier I always say...

Weston

[Vandellia]

I agree that things should potentially degrade wear down ect However, Historically I am much more afraid of the implementation and the way this kind of change would be implemented. seldom in the past, has a change as massive as this been introduced in a balanced matter it tends to be an all or nothing situation to force people to constantly do upkeep on their plots tools etc will drive a portion of the player base out of game Its all about how its implemented. I can not forsee it being done with moderation and then tweaked as it goes, as it stands it gets done and that is the way it stays.

[Helcat]

Method A: Let the items decay, losing their effectiveness gradually... BUT make it so that when they're deconstructed you get the original tech comps back. Shouldn't be a problem.

this defeats the purpose of item decay.

[Jayne]

I think the PB should act as a PB. No, they dont keep buying 1000 sterieos when there is 10 on the shelf already.

As far as decayed items or damaged, I think that needs to be done, BUT I don't want to see it get damaged from any attack. I mean if i'm getting hit with mind damage whats that got to do with my armor??? Nothing in my eyes. And if we can't differ that from another attack then I am not for decay, because it wouldnt be realistic. Just my thought, and I know thats not worth much

Jayne

[Droth]

i had thought of that and if i get hit in the head why does the rest of my armor take damage but i dont think they have any of this in the game as of yet and adding hit boxes may be a bit much to ask. mind damage no but all the other spell types yes so i wouldnt really care if they looked over mind ...wait does mind even do damage? erm anyway if you get set on fire hit by ice chunks stabbed with roots all of this should damage the armor as well as well its hitting the armor

[Helcat]

well, let's be honest here. There are plenty of things
in-game that don't make "realistic" sense, but they
work as a relatively unobtrusive game mechanic...

I don't think the Devs will concern themselves too much
with nitpicking over what type of damage should contribute
to item decay, nor do I expect many players will be out
adventuring, and stop to think "hey... that was Spirit
damage... I hope that doesn't contribut to my armor decay."

It's something that happens "behind the scenes" so to speak,
and should remain that way.

[Weston]

this defeats the purpose of item decay.

Does it? Please explain what you think the purpose is, Helcat.

Should the concept then be called Tech Decay? Is the purpose to penalize just those who have teched items? So If I'm wearing a full suit of unteched Plate Armor, decay wouldn't affect me? If so, then what we need are Battery-Powered Items. Can you say Tinker? Recharge Cells? Perhaps we need to have items consume tons of cells like those stupid Experimental Speed Boots of Gangraf's. If the point is simply to act as a cash sink, then let's put hoard decay back for draggies, and charge interest (or Taxes) on YOUR cash.

My concept of item decay is to cause there to be a sense of 'things wear out and require maintenance'. This would be a minor cash sink, a minor inconvenience, and provide a sense of strategy as adventurers and craftsmen alike would have to keep their equipment in tip-top shape else it degrades the performance of the item somewhat.

I could live with that.

Weston

[Droth]

the purpose of item decay for wow and some other games is a money sink but this game isnt wow or any of those other games the reason for items eventually wearing out is to get crafting flowing again. i can think of no reason for money sinks in games other than to keep people on that tread mill just a little longer but this isnt one of those games. they have put in an incredible crafting system but it goes to waste because no one really needs anything. if items eventually wore out completly(again this would take a while) it would give the economy a pulse. in eve items dont wear out but your ship has a good chance of getting blown to hell. now you have insurance for this to replace the ship but you have to rebuy the ship and alot of the equipment that went down with it. this keeps its economy moving. in neocron they a system really close to what i mentioned and it works well. items can be handed down and last a good while but eventually they break after being patched back together again which in turn forces the player to buy something new which fuels the economy. i know this works because i've seen it working right before my eyes(though it kind of hurt to look at most of the time :/ ) as there arent ships and clones in elf land this is the only viable system that comes to mind. i was part of the fallen angels and my guild had two wings. the fighters and the crafters. the fighters guarded the crafters while they went out to the outpost which gave them a bonus to crafting and they were needed as alot of the parts for the items could only be gotten from mobs. now there arent many germans there are no big guns and no outpost but in order to make nice items somone has to go out and get the parts. this gives adventures a place as they feed the crafters the widgets they need to craft the items that the adventures go out and eventually break. its a cycle. there are two things that keep every economy moving. stuff breaks and nicer stuff comes out. the nicer stuff isnt going to happen much as that phase went out long ago but stuff can still break and this will still be enough to keep it turning. this was the whole idea waaay back when this all started but somewhere along the way people cried to much and they let it slide and now we have a dead economy which wont do as the economy is essential for this game

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

Remember when Novians could be traded or sold? Sure, you had what you have now, folks buying and stripping plots for Novians. So what? They buy the plot fair and square don't they? Yes. As owner of the plot they can do with it as they wish can't they? Yes. Do they sometimes buy and strip plots containing shops near resource fields? Yes. Do this cause howls of anger? Yes. "Somebody bought So and So's plot and stripped it for Novians!" Jeez, you'd think the complainers here thought the plot and structures on it were theirs. Not so. I say that if the complainers are so worried about a given plot disappearing with it's shops and machines, then THEY should buy it. Already own a plot? Waah. Open another account and buy it, sell current plot and buy it. So what happened? Novians are now attuned. Did this slow down the buying and stripping of plots? Not a bit, sports fans. All it did was make the economy swirl faster in the bowl. Wouldn't it have been just as easy to leave the Novians as they were? At least we had some buying and selling happening.

Kwinn,

Novians became attuned when the code for the 80% return on structure demolition was put in. We've NEVER been able to trade novians recieved from structure demolition. The only time novians were tradable were when the only novians we had were from the merge.

[XenoDrake]

though its good to see people trying to stress there minds to find something to add or change, adding item decay menas we rename the game to Diablo 3, we already have sockets and crystals.

think for a momnet what makes items in a game like WoW more appealing then in Hz? when i played, though i had to loot or quest to get my items, or buy from other players, EVERY item had a Special name and set of special abilitys. IN Hz, everything thats worth getting is player made, all with the same specs, the same boring worn out types, swords and shields. the problem however is the look, the feel, all the swords basicly look the same, to little attintion is paid to character detail. the only thing that really changes as you get better and better armor is your tast in color, but all the plate looks the same, all the chain looks the same, and its boring. "video" game implys that your looking at most of it, and though the world of Istaria is stunning, the people and characters are cartoonish at best.

but thats looks, whats that ganna do for anything? well, it would make players mroe intrested in finding those special weapons. people want things like the heart staff, cuz it looks cool, AND its usefull. people dont want a mithril two handed sword, they get it cuz its the next logical progression, just annother cookie cutter perfect stamp out character design. if you want to add desire, make it worth getting on ALL levels, not just rare and usefull, but stylish, something to make you diffrent.

as for the ecconmy, its not sick, its not dieing, its dead. the community here, as it would in the real world if only 100 people where forced to depend on one annother, is doing exsactly what its supposed to be doing. surviving over profiting. im guilty of not charging for my crafted gear. why? where am i ganna spend that money? i got a plot, i got my armor, and if i want tech comps, i hunt, or call for hunts from freinds. the community is fragmented into guilds with everything, and new players who wonder where everything is.

want to get old players back, and new players a reason to stay? the BIGEST complant i get, and HAVE for myself, is i cant group with people for hunts. oh sure, "I" have to group with people to kill Valkoth or Son Of Giggaroth, but were not hunting for more then an hour, then we go back to what ever. and people like Kwinn, god bless em, who dont care about hunting to gain levels anymore, who i can group with, i still find fun with. but i make freinds with new players all day long, wishing i could take em out into the field and show em what i know. but i cant, cuz it wouldent do them any good. item decay is ok for other games, but not here, but if you want something from annother game that we need here, take a lesson from City Of Heros, and let all the uber leveld experts exlemplar down to noobie levels, so we can hunt with them, and actualy help them, wile they are still gaining something from it. i would be at it every day in new triz taking groups of noobies around to places and showing them diffrent things. i already help them as much as i can, mastered evetrything in tier I crafting just so i can provide armor and tools and what not. but that only goes so far, and mostly its just me crafting, then asking questions, then i give them the stuff and a money bag, send them on there way, and thats it. a week later they leave cuz no one will is around that they can hunt with. weather us old foggies want to admit it anymore or not, but the only draw of advinturing is the gaining of levels, and for the most part, the point of an MMO is to do that with people. here we have a generation of people raised off FF7 and FF8 where you can level your character and get all this cool stuff, but it was all alone, and all they want is to get together with some people and smash some golems, but OH no, the people who help them the most cant level with them, cuz of 15 rating levels? i would happly exlemplar down to level 10, lose every ability in every class exsept up to level 10 in the class i chose, just to fight iron golems with some of my noobie freinds. and i sorta already do this, i cycle out alts as they get to high level, start over so i can hunt with them. but thats a rather wround about way of going about it. im sure other high level players would find much enjoyment in actualy helping, as apposed to just giving new players stuff, and then going back to sit on there piles of money and armor waiting for Valkoth to spawn.

/rant

~ Xeno