Cool: Flying Disks

[Justa Mirage]

Justa: Hey.... my pack mule didn't get to its destination <retraces route>

<munch chomp chomp munch crrack> FLATSPIN HOW COULD YOU!!!

Flatspin: I was hungry, not only that, the packs were filled with candied carrots for dessert!

[Peaches]

Absolutely NOT Sir. Fly speed should match the ground speed. That Sir is my entire point.

My dragon got her first flying disk. I can't say that making the fly speed any slower than it is, would do much of any good. When I am on a road, I won't fly. Moves slow as molasses. I can deal with it though, by , as I said, using the road when I can. Other than that, I will fly.

I don't mind the speed as it is now, but making it slower, eh? No please don't.

[Justa Mirage]

Ok here's the real beef about "flight speed vs. disk"

I made my "level 60" dragon flying disk (steel-granite)

Just like a Tarbash... it limits your speed to 18 (and flight speed to 28)

Dragons don't get a "road bonus" while flying... hence:

18 + 25 = 43 run speed for a dragon sludging along a road... vs.

28 for a dragon flying a straight line over things like mountains and mobs.

Both bi-peds and dragons get the road bonus while running, which makes towing a disk less of a chore. Both get 43 run speed when on a road. In a dead heat race it will be a tie (well maybe the dragon by a "neck" he he he)

take for example regular flight for a dragon

After your ROP your flight speed is 75 with no modifiers... this is equal to bi-ped 50 + road speed 25 and is always the speed, and goes no slower unless you press the "=" slow flying key (walking for bi-peds). Is it unfair that dragons get a 100% never fails road bonus while flying? No... because that is the perks for being a dragon. But unless you are an ancient, with Drulkar's wings, you get 2 teched wings to make you fly faster.

For a bi-ped, they get 1 teched item (boots) to go faster, plus spells, plus potions to "run" faster. There are no in-game potions/spells to make your velocity go faster.

If the disk were to be modified... I would suggest to match the flying speed with a constant road bonus and make this version of it go 43 instead of 28.

Why?

Because you play a dragon to get perks for being a dragon. Flying is a perk, being able to drag a flying disk around is a perk. And making that disk any slower than it is would just be dumb and make it totally useless in my opinion.

(Oh... you CAN detach those while flying... so be watching the skies for falling objects)

[Aamer Khan]

You seem to have answered your own question Justa.

Because a dragon can fly over the ridge from the nickel field, rather than having to run down the canyon train tracks back to aughundell, which do you think would win THAT race?

By my reasoning, it should be 28 not 43. To make it 43 gives the dragon and extra perk.

[Seranthor]

I respectfully disagree on this. I think the +10 to ground speed is too much and I've elaborated my feelings in the myriad of threads already covering these flying cargo disks. Bipeds have to make the choice to run or pull a disk. Dragons should have the privledge of that same choice.

[LaughingOtter]

Well, if it is such an unbalancing advantage, why is it slower making mithril bars as DCRA 98 than it is making them as miner 100? Three runs on my dragon nets me about 450 mithril bars. Three runs as a biped nets me about 860. Yes, as a biped I have a marble Tarb and slightly higher speed and capacity; but if the advantage in flight speed is as unbalancing as you claim, should my biped not be getting smoked like a kipper?

[Goriax]

To not give a flying disk any sort of speed bonus at all would be unfair since you never ever get a road bonus while flying. Likewise, to give it a full road bonus would be unfair since on the ground you can't always count on a road bonus (although when dragging it long distances I've found I usually can if I plan ahead. Roads often don't go EXACTLY along the path I want to travel, but usually a road is very close to it.).

So they had to pick a value in the middle somewhere. Some people will scream and yell if a flying disk is given any speed enhancement whatsoever over ground (these are usually those who don't expect to be using a flying disk much if at all, such as one obvious poster on this thread). Some will scream and yell if the flying disk goes at all slower then it would on the ground with a road bonus. I consider both to be unreasonable.

People on these forums are so nit picky and quick to whine and yell at the slightest hint that someone is getting something they might not be getting. There is no way TG can handle this without whining that someone else might possibly get a millionth of a percent of an advantage on every other leap year. I think that says more about the whiners then anything else. In fact this sort of crap reminds me a lot of little kids screaming about their sibling got something they didn't get. And exhibits similar maturity.

I just hope TG doesn't pay a lot of attention to this whining. It sure doesn't deserve any attention.

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As for the case where your biped routinely harvests mithril faster then your dragon, could it be because the biped has a higher skill level? After all, not ALL your time in a mithril field is spent dragging the disk. Sometimes you have to stop and harvest.

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P.S. It would be really cool if they also came out with a flying regular cargo disk and a flying deluxe cargo disk. Oh well, one thing at a time. This one's cool. I see the weekend is coming up. First on my agenda for tonight is to make my working tier 5 flying cargo disk (Lunus of course). After that I think I'm going to try to get some work done on my lair.

[Rhyssa]

Well, if it is such an unbalancing advantage, why is it slower making mithril bars as DCRA 98 than it is making them as miner 100? Three runs on my dragon nets me about 450 mithril bars. Three runs as a biped nets me about 860. Yes, as a biped I have a marble Tarb and slightly higher speed and capacity; but if the advantage in flight speed is as unbalancing as you claim, should my biped not be getting smoked like a kipper?

If you're going to make a comparison like this then you really should compare them both at the same level. However, 2 levels shouldn't make any difference at this point. My dragon and my biped are both level 100 and make mith bars at about the same rate. Both have a tarbash disk, both have the same inv capacity. Both have teched gear. Which advantage are you giving your biped but not your dragon? A disk? Teched gear? Inventory capacity?

[Rhyssa]

Back to the topic of flying cargo disks. I have no problem with the extra fly speed. What I object to is the huge advantage they give dragons over bipeds. Take off some of the capacity and I'll be fine with them.

In the middle of a resource field and a bunch of mobs spawn?
Dragon: No problem, fly 10 feet in the air with disk and you're out of danger.
Biped: Try to run with disk and die. Drop the disk and have to come back for it, and either die then, or spend the next half hour killing the mobs that are stopping you getting your disk. Wear armour instead of cargo gear to give yourself a better chance of surviving and lose half your inventory capacity.

Dragging a disk and there are mobs on the road (eg nahguk ogres, topaz golems)?
Dragon: No problem, I'l just take off and fly til I'm past them, then land and get the road bonus back.
Biped: Try to run with disk and die. Drop the disk and have to come back for it, and either die then, or spend the next half hour killing the mobs that are stopping you getting your disk. Wear armour instead of cargo gear to give yourself a better chance of surviving and lose half yur inventory capacity.

Dragons already have an advantage in being able to fly, I have no problem with that, it's what dragons do. The new flying cargo disk just blew that advantage out so far it leaves bipeds dead in the dirt - literally.

Standish cargo disks have now been changed to be useable by any school. In exchange for the faster speed you sacrifice teleport ability and capacity. In addition, the deluxe disks go by the level of your current school, not any school. Why do bipeds have to sacrifice something to gain speed and dragons don't?

[Goriax]

Back to the topic of flying cargo disks. I have no problem with the extra fly speed. What I object to is the huge advantage they give dragons over bipeds. Take off some of the capacity and I'll be fine with them.

In the middle of a resource field and a bunch of mobs spawn?
Dragon: No problem, fly 10 feet in the air with disk and you're out of danger.
Biped: Try to run with disk and die. Drop the disk and have to come back for it, and either die then, or spend the next half hour killing the mobs that are stopping you getting your disk. Wear armour instead of cargo gear to give yourself a better chance of surviving and lose half your inventory capacity.

Dragging a disk and there are mobs on the road (eg nahguk ogres, topaz golems)?
Dragon: No problem, I'l just take off and fly til I'm past them, then land and get the road bonus back.
Biped: Try to run with disk and die. Drop the disk and have to come back for it, and either die then, or spend the next half hour killing the mobs that are stopping you getting your disk. Wear armour instead of cargo gear to give yourself a better chance of surviving and lose half yur inventory capacity.

Dragons already have an advantage in being able to fly, I have no problem with that, it's what dragons do. The new flying cargo disk just blew that advantage out so far it leaves bipeds dead in the dirt - literally.

Standish cargo disks have now been changed to be useable by any school. In exchange for the faster speed you sacrifice teleport ability and capacity. In addition, the deluxe disks go by the level of your current school, not any school. Why do bipeds have to sacrifice something to gain speed and dragons don't?

Maybe Standishes wouldn't have to make a sacrifice if you weren't allowed to use a road bonus with them.

About fleeing the monsters, that's kind of an artificial scenario. If you examine it people would realize the advantage isn't close to what you're trying to make it. You postulate the person got into the middle of the resource field in the first place and THEN the monsters spawn. Seems to me that unless the person is suicidal, and ran in before the monsters did their initial spawn the monsters would be there before you run in. If you want to commit suicide be my guest, but don't go blaming dragons. If you ran into a resource field about which you knew nothing so didn't know monsters spawn you're pretty dumb if you didn't wait long enough FOR any monsters to spawn. Again, if you do something that stupid you deserve the consequences. Maybe next time you'll be a bit smarter.

So unless you run in before the monsters spawn, you obviously went in AFTER they did their initial spawn. Which means you can get to the middle of the resource field even with monsters. So if a bunch agro on you just ditch the cargo disk and come back when you can. Although if you took a cargo disk (whether you're dragon or biped) into such a situation you still deserve whatever happens to you, more on that later.

If a dragon flies ONLY 10 feet in the air with monsters he can't handle agroed on him he will die. Even if the monsters are only melee monsters because even melee monsters have a little range and are quite capable of killing a dragon that high up (I know, I've died that way). Furthermore, the tough areas always seem to have at least some if not most mobs with ranged attacks. The dragon has to fly completely out of range before he's safe. Not only melee range but the range of any spells. And, nowadays he better hope they don't have root.

The slow fly speed while dragging a disk (even 36, the speed of a tier 5, is pretty piddly compared to sprint speed without a disk let alone any buffs a biped would be crazy not to have if he expected to have to run (dragons don't have speed buff spells so can't use them)). If the monsters have any ranged attack they'll get in several good attacks before the dragon gets out of range, espcially if he was so dumb as to try to fly away while dragging a disk. Even melee monsters will get in good attacks. And while the dragon is GETTING out of range he is totally helpless, since dragons can do nothing in the air except move -- he cannot fight back, he cannot even heal himself. It's not a freebie. If it were me, I'd ditch the disk, run as fast as I possibly could and do like the biped and come back when the coast is clear. Incidentally, if you try to take off when mobs are hammering you, you'll discover the takeoff process can be interrupted. This can make for, shall we say, a very tense situation. I've died many times because of that. I prefer to flee really ugly situations by first running away -- perhaps even using sprint -- and taking off once I"ve put some distance between me and the mobs. A biped would just keep running.

If either a biped or a dragon tries to do something so stupid as run away from monsters he can't handle while dragging a cargo disk he deserves to die.

Do you know what I do for harvesting resources by extremely tough monsters? I wear my fighting scales. If I need skill boosts I use potions which by the way cannot be manufactured by dragons. One of those little biped perks people are so conveniently forgetting. I also wouldn't drag a cargo disk into the middle of that. I'd park it someplace safe and shuttle stuff to it because I DON'T want to be fooling with both a cargo disk and really dangerous monsters at the same time. In fact, for most dangerous places I can think of (Eastern Blight and Satyr islands come to mind) I wouldn't even bring a cargo disk at all but leave it in my vault because it would be more a liability then an asset.

And if I had to deal with more then one resource (the likely case if I'm laircrafting and laircrafting is pretty much the only thing I have any reason to craft nowadays) I'd STILL be using a biped deluxe cargo disk.

They are trying to balance the races but NOT by a detailed tit for tat. Dragons are strong in some areas, bipeds are strong (and soon to be stronger) in others. And some of these examples are, to be charitable, not very realistic.

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I didn't come to this thread to continue this ridiculous biped vs dragon whine fest although I felt like I couldn't ignore some of those responses

When will I learn. This reminds me of the adage about wrestling with a pig -- you'll both get filthy but only one of you will enjoy it.

I came because tonight I finally finished my mithril marble cargo disk -- the first disk I've made in this game even though I've been playing since release -- and wanted to say to TG that I love it. The artwork is REALLY cool. Good job Tulga.

[Seranthor]

With all due respect sir, the armor of your craft scales is far higher than any cargo gear, AND lets not forget that as an ancient your carry capacity is 5k which is higher thanfull ironsilk cargo.

So let me cover this

better armor in crafting gear - dragon advantage
higher carry capacity in crafting gear - dragon advantage
ability to fly to evade - dragon advantage
ability to fly while towing a cargo disk - dragon advantage

Holy Smokes, looks like a clean sweep, but then again, I could be looking at it all wrong.

[Rhyssa]

Maybe Standishes wouldn't have to make a sacrifice if you weren't allowed to use a road bonus with them.

Flying cargo disks get not only the road bonus, but a flying bonus as well. An NO sacrifice.

As for the rest of your post, you mean to tell me you've never gone into the middle of a resource area without seeing any mobs, only to have some spawn between you and the shop while you were in the middle? Or gone to an area and waited a few minutes and no mobs spawn, so you run in and start mining, only to have half a dozen mobs suddenly pop around you? You must be one of the lucky few who doesn't experience any lag in game then.

About fleeing the monsters, that's kind of an artificial scenario.

Since you can fly, you probably don't know much about mobs on the road. That's fine, but don't tell bipeds that a situation is artificial just because you know nothing about it. I couldn't tell you how many times I, and others (including some of my dragon friends) have died trying to pull a disk of cobalt or jade from the field back to Kirasanct so we could teleport.
As a biped (and up until now as a dragon as well) it takes me 6 recalls/teleports and 3 runs from Harro to get a disk full of bars back to my plot from Old Oaks. Are you telling me you think that's just as good an option as running along the road back to Harro and flying with a disk whenever you encounter mobs and doing it all in one trip? How about trying to get a disk full of gold bars from Summit back down the mountain past winter wolves to Mahagra? No advantage at all to a flying disk there is there?
How about using the gem cave on fire island? I don't know anyone who's ever tried to drag a cargo disk from that cave, back past all the mobs between the cave and the nearest teleporter or pad. Nope, no advantage there to having a flying disk either.

You know, you're right, there's really no advantage at all to flying cargo disks is there? So why is it that dragons are all falling over with gratitude for them?

[Coign]

Here is my opinion and I am sure a bad one at that.

I am a MMORPG addict. I come from 4 years of UO, 3 years of DAoC, 2 years of WoW, and more thre-month stints in other games then I care to list off. Just assume I have played every MMORPG for at least 3 months that has been released in the US.

Why did I choose to play Horizons now? What got me interested?

It was dragons. No other game out there you can play dragons in. Many o the other games talked about bringing in flying (Orginally Druids in WoW were going to have a bird form they could shift into) but they all nixed it due to game imbalancing.

My point and opinion is that after reading all these points I agree (and I am playing a dragon but still only a hatchling) that dragons have some definate advantages in this game. We have better armor, only two crafting schools, we can fly, and do as much damage with spells as with melee without change schools. And now we have flying disks.

If I am a game company trying to compete with with all the other choices out there I am going to find a "niche." If I can not have a unique IP like Star Wars, Matrix, or coming soon like SG Worlds and LotR then I am going to promote what makes my game unique. In Horizons that is dragons. You can be a dragon. You can fly and be the most powerful creature in the world. (Even if it is only slighty more powerful)

Dragons should not be "balanced" they should be desired. That is why I play this game and I think that is a big reason why a lot of people play this game.

[Death-knell]

wow...look at all the tears. Starts handing out hankies!

deluxe marble is more versatile and easier to use. The new flying disk looks cool and all but its effectiveness is extremely limited. I can carry more with the new disk but I fly 3 times faster so I can make 3 trips to one with my disk. All in all the flying disk is a neat gimmick but for usefulness I'm sticking with a marble deluxe!

[Takora Drakan]

Just a question from a poor Eu player, can also lunus use the blue helian disc and helian the red lunus disc?

[Deth]

Yes you can use either.