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Thread: A Comprehensive Proposal for Item Decay

  1. #1

    Default A Comprehensive Proposal for Item Decay

    Based upon the numerous good suggestions I have seen in the Elder Game thread in Discussions, along with a number of discussions I have had in game with various players, I have put together the following comprehensive proposal for the implementation of item decay.

    Please note first, that I have no idea whether the following ideas can or cannot be easily programmed. And second, the numbers I have utilized below are obviously subject to all sorts of tweaking.

    That said . . .

    General Overview

    First, and most importantly, items would never break. Although items can and would deteriorate to the point of uselessness, they would never become irreparable.

    Second, the only items subject to decay would be clothing, armor, cargo gear, weapons and tools. Such things as spells, crystals and structures would not be subject to decay.

    Third, all types of covered items would be subject to decay. This includes not only crafted items, but looted and/or “earned” items such as the Zealot, Valkor’s Blood Talon, and the ceremonial shields. However, attuned items would be exempt from decay.

    Fourth, although adventurers would have a method to repair items in the field, these field repairs would be less effective than having a crafter repair the item, and the field repairs would be less and less effective with each use.

    Fifth, items would decay from use and damage, not simply over time.

    Methods of Item Decay

    Clothing and Armor: These items would deteriorate each time the character takes attack damage from an adversary. The amount of decay would be a fractional multiplier of the amount of damage taken, with a cap on the maximum amount an item would decay per “hit.” For example, the fractional multiplier might be set at 1/1000 of 1% of the damage taken from a successful attack, and the cap might be set at a maximum of 2% degradation from any single attack. In concrete terms, if you were hit for 100 damage, your armor usefulness would deteriorate by 1/10 of one percent. If you were hit for 1000 damage in a single attack, your armor usefulness would deteriorate by a full percentage point. And if you are hit for more than 2000 damage points (from any of the uber bosses), the cap would kick in and your armor usefulness would degrade by 2% (e.g., from 87% to 85%).

    Tools: These items would deteriorate by, say, 1/1000 of 1% each time they are used to harvest resources. For gathering tools, this fractional decay multiplier would be applied each gathering attempt (i.e. per strike at a node for picks, per gathering attempt for cloth and essence, per chop for axes). For processing and crafting tools, the decay multiplier would be applied per item made (i.e. per bar made for smelting tongs, per item crafted for smith hammers and sewing needles, per sheet or joint made for fitting hammers, and so on).

    Weapons: These items would degrade each time they make contact with an adversary (no penalty for whiffing). A fractional multiplier of, say, 1/100 of 1% would be applied each time the weapon hits an adversary, regardless of whether the hit actually results in damage to the adversary.

    Cargo Gear: These items would decay upon equipage. A fractional multiplier of, say, 1/10 of 1% would be applied each time a character dons the item.

    Effects of Item Degradation

    Generally, items become less and less useful as they deteriorate in direct proportion to their percentage of remaining usefulness. For example, if in full repair a chestguard provides 100 armor, once it deteriorates through damage down to 35% usefulness it will only provide 35 armor. Similarly, if a pick in full repair might yield an average of 8 ore per strike on a node, the same pick at 50% usefulness will only yield an average of 4 ore per strike. Once an item’s usefulness has deteriorated to zero, the item can no longer be equipped.

    Item Repair:

    Crafter Repair: Crafters would be able to restore a decayed item’s usefulness to 100%. To repair an item, (a) the crafter must have the item in his inventory, (b) must be next to an appropriate machine, (c) must have the appropriate level of the applicable skill to repair the type of item, and (d) must have available and expend a fraction of the base materials required to create the item initially.

    A couple of examples: A crafter wanting to repair a mithril maul must (a) have the maul in his pack (the adventurer would trade it to him), (b) be next to an anvil, (c) have a minimum of 800 weaponsmith skill, and (d) have available (in inventory or nearby disk), and will consume in the repair, two mithril bars. A dragon crafter wishing to repair a cobalt-obsidian scale must (a) have the scale in his inventory, (b) be next to a scaleforge, (c) have a minimum of 600 scalecrafting, and (d) have available two cobalt bars and two obsidian bricks.

    Repair Kits: Crafters would also be able to craft “repair kits.” These kits would range from Tier I through Tier V in repair capability, with a Tier I kit only able to repair Tier I items, through Tier V kits which could repair all tiers of equipment. These kits would come in a number of varieties: Cloth, Leather, Metal Armor, Metal Tools, Wood Tools, Stone Tools, Metal Weapons, Wood Weapons and Cargo Gear. To make a particular repair kit, a crafter must (a) have the requisite minimum skill for the type of kit (e.g. to make a Tier III Metal Tool Repair Kit, a crafter must have a minimum skill of 400 in metalworking), (b) be next to the appropriate machine (e.g. you must be next to an anvil to make Metal Tool Repair Kits, and (c) have available bars, bricks, boards, spools, hide strips and/or essence orbs necessary for making the type of item in the first instance.

    Some examples: A crafter wishing to make a Tier IV Leather Repair Kit must (a) have at least 600 Leatherworking skill, (b) be next to a tanning rack, and (c) have four hide strips to consume in making the kit. A crafter wishing to make a Tier III Cargo Gear Repair Kit must (a) have at least 400 tinkering skill, (b) be next to a tinkering table, and (c) have two steel bars, two cotton spools and two glowing essence orbs to consume in making the kit.

    Players may utilize such repair kits out in the field, and do not need any particular skill to use them. The first repair kit used on an item will only restore it to, say, 80% of its maximum effectiveness. The next repair kit used will only restore it to, say, 60% of its maximum effectiveness. And so on until the subsequent use of yet another repair kit will not have any repair affect at all, and the player must have a crafter restore the item to 100%.
    Last edited by Tantalyr; July 14th, 2006 at 07:07 PM.
    Before you criticize anyone, walk a mile in his shoes. Then, when you criticize him, you'll be a mile away. And you'll have his shoes.

  2. #2

    Thumbs up

    Wow, great system you've envisioned! I agree with EVERY bit of it! I'd love to see this built-into HZ.
    "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good dipped in chocolate!" - Can't remember who

  3. #3

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    yup, this totally works for me and sounds tootally cool...

    I would have no issues whatsoever with this implementation!

    Actually the only thing I could "think" of would be the trading of the initial item to the crafter, for those worried their items might get "stolen" that way. But we're such a small community, with such active devs, that I would imagine that such incidences would I Hope be extrmeley rare, and life would become then extremely sucky for such a griefer....
    Frith-Rae BridgeSol
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  4. #4
    Member Helcat's Avatar
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    I think this would work if the following were also specified:

    1) Repairing tech'd items should require the same components
    used in the techniques, but at 1/2 the quantities.

    2) Repairing "epic" or rare quested items should require
    comparably rare components.
    Got Cowbell?

  5. #5

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    I think this is workable. I'd prefer quested/drop/crafted drop items not to decay, however, especially considering how inferior most of them are to crafted versions.
    Klaus Wulfenbach
    Mithril Council, Chaos
    "Death is fleeting. Pride is forever."


    "Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."-- Abraham Lincoln

  6. #6

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    Tantalyr - while there's nothing wrong with your suggestion, what does it do for the game? All I'm seeing is that you need to pump more mundane resources into items occasionally, either through kits or partial re-crafting. What does that add to the experience? Who does that help? Aren't resources (other than Tier 6, which aren't applicable to this discussion because there aren't Tier 6 items) rather easy to aquire as it is?

    And I'm not a fan of items become less effective with decay. It leads to this nagging feeling that you need to keep all your items at 100% all the time. I was very annoyed by this in Oblivion. Now maybe effectiveness starts to go down after a certain point (say 50%). Regardless, however, the way Horizons is programmed makes this impossible. There is no way to universally "reduce effectiveness" of an item. Which numbers do you lower? By how much?

    More to the point, the purpose of the proposed item decay is to create demand. Remember the big thread about "Introduce demand to the economy"? Well true item decay, which requires either replacement (thus demand) or expendeture of coin (thus demand for coin) will have an impact on player interaction and motivation. Again, to clarify, because some people still jump to conclusions, the item's need to be replaced will not be so quick as to make your entire playtime focused on replacement. Not even close. But it will be enough that crafters will always have demand for their items, and adventurers always have demand for technique components.

  7. #7
    Member Helcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smeglor
    ...that you need to pump more mundane resources into items occasionally, either through kits or partial re-crafting. What does that add to the experience? Who does that help? Aren't resources (other than Tier 6, which aren't applicable to this discussion because there aren't Tier 6 items) rather easy to aquire as it is?
    Agree.

    Which is why I said you have to include the need for exotics
    in the repair of decayed items, or none of this makes any sense.
    Got Cowbell?

  8. #8

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    I agree with you Tant. it seems that the Devs want to take the game in a

    different direction. I will wait and see what they come up with but like many

    have said if they make items where they cannot be repaired i will simply find

    another game.I already have a job I do not want a 2nd.

  9. #9

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    I agree with Smeglor on this. Now if the repair kits had a significant cost to them like Helcat says, with in the way of comps (making them dynamic might be hard to do and static would put too much drain on one comp) or a purchased items instead of the comp would work.
    Decay must generate a money sink, crafting activity, and overall trade. The more casual a player you are, the less it affects you usually.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by zayin
    I agree with you Tant. it seems that the Devs want to take the game in a

    different direction. I will wait and see what they come up with but like many

    have said if they make items where they cannot be repaired i will simply find

    another game.I already have a job I do not want a 2nd.
    Certain individuals keep pulling this "I already have a job"
    quote out, but WTH exactly does that have to do with
    anything being proposed? So hunting tech comps to get
    your gear crafted initially is "fun", but hunting tech comps
    several months later to repair said gear is now "a job" ??
    Last edited by Helcat; July 14th, 2006 at 08:45 PM.
    Got Cowbell?

  11. #11

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    no it was never fun.it was very much a job the first time.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smeglor
    What does that add to the experience? Who does that help?
    I would ask the same thing about being forced to replace that which you have already spent a great deal of time acquiring: what does this add to the experience?

    I have yet to see an answer which meets any definition of "fun" that I am aware of. Unless an item's lifespan is greater than the amount of time I will be a subscriber, I will have to recreate everything I have already created and I will have to do it one or more times, for no benefit to myself.

    Let me add this: If my weapons and tools eventually begin to decay into uselessness, on that day I will fight in this war and craft for this community no longer. I don't mean quit playing; I mean keep playing (probably) but refusing to take part in any event or community construction project, ever again. I will play for myself and my friends alone, and let the community be damned.

    Because I will not stand to be punished for doing something in service to the community. I will not kiss the whip.
    Klaus Wulfenbach
    Mithril Council, Chaos
    "Death is fleeting. Pride is forever."


    "Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."-- Abraham Lincoln

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smeglor
    Tantalyr - while there's nothing wrong with your suggestion, what does it do for the game? All I'm seeing is that you need to pump more mundane resources into items occasionally, either through kits or partial re-crafting. What does that add to the experience? Who does that help? Aren't resources (other than Tier 6, which aren't applicable to this discussion because there aren't Tier 6 items) rather easy to aquire as it is?

    And I'm not a fan of items become less effective with decay. It leads to this nagging feeling that you need to keep all your items at 100% all the time. I was very annoyed by this in Oblivion. Now maybe effectiveness starts to go down after a certain point (say 50%). Regardless, however, the way Horizons is programmed makes this impossible. There is no way to universally "reduce effectiveness" of an item. Which numbers do you lower? By how much?

    More to the point, the purpose of the proposed item decay is to create demand. Remember the big thread about "Introduce demand to the economy"? Well true item decay, which requires either replacement (thus demand) or expendeture of coin (thus demand for coin) will have an impact on player interaction and motivation. Again, to clarify, because some people still jump to conclusions, the item's need to be replaced will not be so quick as to make your entire playtime focused on replacement. Not even close. But it will be enough that crafters will always have demand for their items, and adventurers always have demand for technique components.
    I agree with this smeglor on this one here. That nagging feeling would be there. Try to fight a boss with 40k hp? You're going to get hit for a good deal more than your armor would allow under the conditions you set forth (though I know those were rough examples). I also don't like how each hit hurts your armor. However realistic that may be, it is no good way to make an adventure system in which it takes a LONG time to get from a town to hunting ground.

    Take WoWs system for example. Items had duribility (say 100 out of 100). Casually over 10-15 kills they would lose a point here and there maybe. However if you died, you would lose 10%. Now the point that I want to focus on here is that not until you reached 10% duribility (10/100) did your stats go down by a fraction. At 0% you lost all stat gains. Of course, this could only be repaired through a money sink, and the better the gear the more money you paid. It really put a "cost" to death - especially if you were learning something new and died 10-15 times a night.

    Now I am not saying this is what we should do, just citing example of a system that was not mundane, gave a consequence to using gear, and and provided a money sink.

    What smeglor is trying to point out is that we need money to flow from adventurer to crafter, and back to adventurer. Generally now only crafters are paying adventuers for comps. Armor is easy enough to make that it is tough for the crafter to justify charging enough to make the income he needs to buy comps for his tools/cargo armor. The self sufficency of many people certainly doesnt help this. So TG needs to walk the fine line of making this stuff a big enough issue that people will have to pay crafters for repair, and at the same time small enough that it doesnt feel like they have a clock ticking against them all the time.
    Hiko - Former Defender of Shadow
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    BOYCOTTING THE SUMMONED SHIELD OF CREATION AS OF JULY 17TH, 2006

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by zayin
    no it was never fun.it was very much a job the first time.
    ah.. then that is another problem entirely. If you were never
    enjoying the game to begin with...
    Got Cowbell?

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helcat
    ah.. then that is another problem entirely.
    that is a playstyle question helcat. Comp gathering is not fun for me. What is fun is taking those comps, making armor, and seeing how close to the edge I can push it on a mob that was previously impossible for me.

    After 4 hours of hunting blood skulks last night (with a lot of help from friends), I finally checked off the 30 I need and went and experienced marrows. Getting to fight night stalkers and dark stalkers and marrows in sub par gear was finally exciting me again. Mindlessly slaughtering the skulks was just not doing the trick. I was fighting things that I should not be fighting.
    Hiko - Former Defender of Shadow
    100 Knight of Creation Hybrid
    -= Disciples =-
    BOYCOTTING THE SUMMONED SHIELD OF CREATION AS OF JULY 17TH, 2006

  16. #16

    Default Decay

    I notice you mention no decay for attuned items. With that said Zealot and talon are attuned. What I do not agree with is decay for any epic or even old epic items that don't attune, such as Regals and BHM. Not unless I can fully repair them. I and to many others have spent lost of money and time to get what we have.

    I not sure if your for or against this but I just wanted to point that out.

    Jayne

  17. #17

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    I am all for returning us to the days of an active economy, with vibrant trade between players. And now that Smeglor reveals that the system Horizons uses will not allow the reduction of effectiveness of an item, what other options may there be?

    I truly don't want an "easy" key. And I believe that anything worth having, is worth putting in effort for. I don't believe having to put in that same effort again after I worked so hard the first time.

    SO...

    Smeglor, What would be the problem with allowing a player to salvage at least 1/2 of the comps that were used to tech an item? The item then needs to be remade, ( giving the crafter the form of demand we have asked for and you seem to be seeking ) and even some comps are removed from the world, meaning that adventurers will have a demand for selling or trading comps. Not to mention that now players are interacting like you and we want, AND it's not as painful.

    I respectfully await your response.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smeglor
    Tantalyr - while there's nothing wrong with your suggestion, what does it do for the game? All I'm seeing is that you need to pump more mundane resources into items occasionally, either through kits or partial re-crafting. What does that add to the experience? Who does that help? Aren't resources (other than Tier 6, which aren't applicable to this discussion because there aren't Tier 6 items) rather easy to aquire as it is?
    In my view, this plan does several things "for the game." First off, it promotes player-interaction, as eventually every adventurer (and indeed every crafter) will have to visit and interact with a crafter to repair items up to 100% usefulness. Field repairs won't cut it after several uses.

    Second, it promotes a player-driven economy. Crafters will almost certainly charge for field repair kits, and I would expect consignors to be constantly stocked with kits of all kinds and tiers. And I would expect most, if not all, crafters will charge something for each item repaired.

    Third, and to me most importantly, given the very strong negative reaction the "current philosophy" has received--particularly the aspect of item breakage--I would bluntly say that this compromise plan would help save this game. I am very concerned from the numerous posts I've read in Discussions, as well as from a number of in game conversations I've had with other players, that item breakage is an absolute deal breaker for many, many players--even if it would take a year or more for items to break. I truly do not think that at this nascent stage of Horizons' renaissance, Tulga can afford another mass exodus of unhappy players.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smeglor
    And I'm not a fan of items become less effective with decay. It leads to this nagging feeling that you need to keep all your items at 100% all the time. I was very annoyed by this in Oblivion. Now maybe effectiveness starts to go down after a certain point (say 50%). Regardless, however, the way Horizons is programmed makes this impossible. There is no way to universally "reduce effectiveness" of an item. Which numbers do you lower? By how much?
    I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say that "the way Horizons is programmed makes this impossible." What is "this?" Are you saying that it is impossible for you to program gradual item decay and concomitant ineffectiveness as outlined in my proposal? Or are you saying that it is impossible for you to program in specific "plateaus" of ineffectiveness (i.e. 75%, 50%, etc.)? Or both? Please clarify here and I'll happily respond.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smeglor
    More to the point, the purpose of the proposed item decay is to create demand. Remember the big thread about "Introduce demand to the economy"? Well true item decay, which requires either replacement (thus demand) or expendeture of coin (thus demand for coin) will have an impact on player interaction and motivation. Again, to clarify, because some people still jump to conclusions, the item's need to be replaced will not be so quick as to make your entire playtime focused on replacement. Not even close. But it will be enough that crafters will always have demand for their items, and adventurers always have demand for technique components.
    As I stated earlier, the proposed plan will indeed create demand both for crafter repair services and for field repair kits.

    And as I stated earlier, it is quite clear to me from the posts in Discussions (and my in game conversations) that item breakage is a hit-the-wall deal breaker for many players--not all, mind you, but certainly the majority of posters. And as you can see from the Discussions thread, many of those players are indeed comfortable with the concept of item decay so long as it does not entail item breakage.

    To some folks, hunting in game is 99% of what they play for, and crafting is just deathly boring. Others have precisely the polarly opposite view, and absolutely do not want to grind for components--or God forbid, engage in hundreds more Valkor hunts to replace their Blood Talon--to replace a treasured broken item, no matter how long it would take the item to break.

    So the plan I've proposed here attempts to strike a middle ground--one that implements a measure of item decay which, as explained, would serve the twin goals of promoting player interaction and promoting a player-driven economy, while not driving a goodly number of players away from the game.
    Last edited by Tantalyr; July 14th, 2006 at 09:47 PM.
    Before you criticize anyone, walk a mile in his shoes. Then, when you criticize him, you'll be a mile away. And you'll have his shoes.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayne
    I notice you mention no decay for attuned items. With that said Zealot and talon are attuned. What I do not agree with is decay for any epic or even old epic items that don't attune, such as Regals and BHM. Not unless I can fully repair them. I and to many others have spent lost of money and time to get what we have.

    I not sure if your for or against this but I just wanted to point that out.

    Jayne
    Thanks for the correction, Jayne! I don't possess either of those two wondrous weapons, so I wasn't aware that they attune. The primary reason that I would exempt attuned items from decay is because there is no way to give them to a crafter to repair.

    And yes, the plan I propose would allow all covered items, crafted and epic alike, to be fully repaired.
    Before you criticize anyone, walk a mile in his shoes. Then, when you criticize him, you'll be a mile away. And you'll have his shoes.

  20. #20

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    Ah then that plan in and of itself is a viable one. And technically yes since the talon can be created with a form I guess a repair form for that item can be created. So long as we don't just destroy those or any other item fully and allow it to be fully repaired then I can sign off on this.

    Do they want to go to this level, I honestly have no idea. And I haven't seen there thoughts, I believe they are looking for input from all sources and yours is just a valid one as any.

    You did a good job thinking it through.

    Jayne

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