To the Players and EI

[Chioxin]

Otter

I think if you stand back and look at it from a different stand point, you will have seen that Kwinn mentioned and made clear that those kinds of questions are good and wonderful things to ask. That he wasn't against such questions being asked and they should be. However, his arguement is toward the manner those questions are asked which is in an extremly angry tone where cruel words and attacks on EI's incompetence occurs... that one can make ask the SAME question, and be calm and direct about it. Rather than ask the question in an explosion of anger and hate.

Some of the things I've seen here remind me of horrible customers I've had working retail. The customer is trying to get an answer by being loud and abnoxious hoping that in doing so they will embarrass the employee and catch him/her off guard in order to get what they want. This usually yeilds results, and some times it doesn't.

Now there are those customers I've had in retail who had a problem and when they voiced them to me without making me feel like an dolt, I bent over backwards trying to get them what they needed. I'd even go to people over my head for such things.

That's all Kwinn is really saying in my read of his post. But, that's just my read and everyone has their own version of it.

[LaughingOtter]

Those same ego driven players are the biggest bashers, their status as big imaginary fish in a small imaginary pond has vanished and they are lashing out like a spoiled child that suddenly realized a toy he never played with or cared about is gone.

<snip>
I can’t help but be left with the impression that some players would bash ********** ************ Reincarnate if he bought the game.

That is not a request for civility in posting. That is a personal attack on a specific group of posters.

[snickel]

That is not a request for civility in posting. That is a personal attack on a specific group of posters.

I think there seems to be an agreement that bashing is bad. If a group of posters distinguishes itself by a bashing practice, calling them bashers and pointing to the fact that they bash is not a personal attack on that group of posters. It is a criticism of the practice that they have in common. Hopefully, they have other, nicer features in common, too. And in common with other people as well.

Be that as it may, as long as everyone agrees that bashing is not a good idea, no matter what the motivation is (even if its an educational one) then we might lay this bashing discussion to rest, hopefully.

Its now up to everyone to set a positive example.

[Flindar]

First things first, Kwinn I know we dont always see totally eye to eye on things but on this stance you musta read my mind....

EI is (in my opinion) doing an exceptional job with what they had dumped on them in a matter of a few short weeks.

I havent had any of the billing issues that everyones screaming about...

I dont see any moderation being done in these forums that wasnt done before... trust me i know cause i had a few rants in the day moved and edited... any intelligent person would know that EI isnt going to set here and let people bash them on their own forums with total lack of constructive critisism... I have read posts of upset people that did have genuine issues and they are still there to read right now... Its the lack of tact thats being moderated and frankly it deserves it.

As to EI's communication with the player base...
1 within a matter of days of the news EIdarkenigma was on order talking to people and answering questions.
2 almost everytime i have logged into Irc i have seen some sort of presence from EI or been able to talk with someone that has contacts with EI
((for you whiners complaining about Mirc... take the 5 mins away from your complaining ... download the program and login... any idiot can figure it out because i did))
3 I have spoken with EI dark personally as well as Gizmo and both fellas appear to be genuinely interested in the wellfare of istaria... they are people just like the rest of us and took the time out of listening to all the meritless complaining to just chat with the players....

For those that know me, you know that normally im on here only to rant... but things have changed... I love Horizons and I want to see it grow...

The only way that will happen is for us as the player base to support the new owners and work with them to make the changes we all know need to happen. Things wont happen overnight.... the mess left when TG dumped will take time for the new people to sort through.. so lets show some patience and give EI a fair shot..

[Peaches]

His original post was changed to remove the tulga statement.



Thanks

[Jayne]

Good point Flindar. Yes EI needs some time. And I personally I have given that time. I have not bashed them in anyway and really have been pretty quiet thru this.

So here's my question, how much time is enough time? Month.....3 months...year?

When there are billing issues that obviously need to be sorted out, what about the subs that are monthly? Like I said I'm just asking for opinions of what is the right amount of time? Who is gonna stand up and say this is the right amount of time, everyones answer is different based on what they are going thru today.

Jayne

[BKBanzai]

So here's my question, how much time is enough time? Month.....3 months...year?Jayne

The right amount of time?

That would, yes, depend on each subscriber's threshhold. The game was fubar (is that on ok term? please delete it if it's not) after the server merge. That whole fiasco took months. Blight server was barely functional. The game was almost down the first few weeks more than it was up. Vaults took 40 minutes to 1 hour + to load. Lag was ...omg....there's not even a word to describe how bad it was.

The game was instable, patch for patch for a good year after that. Some patches would bring decent improvement, 2 patches later we'd see a total reversal of that improvement.

How long did it take to patch the patch that was causing world objects to redownload with every port? I think there were other lag-related issues generated in that patch, which was, ironically, designed to reduce memory leaks and improve performance. I know it was at least 3-4 weeks before a fix came out, and even then, that was in stages.

The game right now is pretty decent, other than mob aggro. Performance has been hit pretty badly for some configuration PCs, although I think by and large, it's still better for 90% of the playerbase than the issues of a year ago.

So, how long is long enough? When you can't play, when you log in and the performance is so bad that you can't take it another minute or you're bored out of your skull....maybe that's long enough. But I know full well that a good number of people that are threatening that they're not gonna put up with no content, no patches for an indefinite period of time are those same people that put up with far worse performance in this game for longer than it would take to get a new programmer up to speed.

[Jayne]

I agree with you BKBanzai 100%, my question was based on someones comment. Yes I to agree the game right now is pretty decent. I have always logged in and found a way to enjoy myself dispite all the obstacles I personally deal with.

I, like yourself really love this game. I want it to succeed no matter who owns it. Thats why I am staying optimistic and as positive as I can. It's nice to know that even people with differences can agree on something.

Jayne

[Kwinn]

That is not a request for civility in posting. That is a personal attack on a specific group of posters.

Did I mention names? No.

Until I mention names it cannot be personal. As to the 'attack' aspect it is not an attack as no-one is targetted. Now if someone feels they have been bashed by that statement then perhaps it's due a guilty conscience. I attacked NO-ONE personally not did I vaguely attack anyone. I made a statement of a personal observation and if someone or some group of folks takes offense thinking it was aimed at them thats too bad. I cannot control the feeling of others. It has been my experience however, that offense taken in a case such as this is usually a sign of guilt. In such a case I can only say that if the shoe fits, wear it.

I could offer an apology after every post or reply I make to sooth the feelings of those that make take offense at what I have to say. A disclaimer of sorts I suppose you could call it. I see no reason to do this nor do I feel the need to tender an apology now. Several reasons come to mind. For one thing, I am well within the stated Forums rules with my post. No rules were broken and personal attacks are against the rules. Perhaps most important though, an apology tendered to those that may feel attacked or offended simply WOULD NOT BE GENUINE. Not now, not tomorrow, not next week, not ever.

[Jayne]

Actually that reference to a group of posters covers everyone on these boards really. We all have gotten heated at one time over an issue on these boards, so technically we can all take blame for this issue at one time or another. I think we need to step back and not take things personally until they actually become personal.

No matter what side of the fence your on currently, you just maybe on the other side next time.

Jayne

[LaughingOtter]

Well, I guess some animals really are more equal than others.

[Flindar]

Jayne... in regards to how long??? i think a couple months at the least... Horizons is a massive game... its gonna take some time for the new team to get comfortable with its structure... i dont know much about programming but id venture to guess its not something you just jump into ... especially when your taken over someone elses project thats been in the works for years

BK is right also.... most of us here have been through way worse conditions... we have waited years on things promised... suffered through horrible playing conditions and still we weathered it out.... the same will happen here with patience....

Two most important factors that everyone should be focused on::

A Horizons is playable and enjoyable as good as its ever been.

B Horizons is an awesome game with such a great playerbase (community) that no other mmorpg can boast and we are still able to enjoy that.

[Jayne]

I totally agree Flindar! 100%, makes me wonder why there was so many posts about issues with HZ prior to EI buying it. But hey thats the past.

Jayne

[BKBanzai]

I totally agree Flindar! 100%, makes me wonder why there was so many posts about issues with HZ prior to EI buying it. But hey thats the past.

Jayne

No one's saying that there aren't performance issues ongoing and bugs that still aren't fixed (i.e., disappearing mobs), that players weren't irked by some recent changes to spawn densities, loot drop rates, etc., but the point is that the game has been in far far worse shape than it is in currently (although if Nadia's prices could be set back to their previous state, that would make some people very happy, especially considering the mithril golem spawn situation).

As far as new players go, this is a good time for interested new players to join up...there's enough content and classes in the game that they could be happily exploring for a good number of months (once that becomes possible, that is).

And the older, established players? I'd think that if we've been around this long and we're not bored yet...that we'll be good to go for a good number of months yet without seeing new content immediately.

[Alexis_Aris]

Kwinn you are dead on with all of this.. I agree completely.. I am personally sick of the crap where people use the excuse that they pay for the game and if they dont get what they want they they will leave.. please by all means, leave... less people I must /ignore

[Arcadius]

Agreed kwinn.

[Shiroc]

The bottom line is this: Horizons has new owners. The game BELONGS to EI. We pay a monthly fee for the Privilege of PLAYING the game. We don’t own it; we have no say in anything that happens to it. It IS NOT our property. Some of us feel our input should carry as much weight as that of the owners. Ego is rampant. Those same ego driven players are the biggest bashers, their status as big imaginary fish in a small imaginary pond has vanished and they are lashing out like a spoiled child that suddenly realized a toy he never played with or cared about is gone. Regardless of how long any of us have been customers; our value is $12.95 per month. That’s it, not very pleasant to consider but, you strip away everything else and that’s all that’s left. Will the game survive? I don’t know, I hope so. Will EI make it what it can be? I don’t know, I hope so. Will all the bashing help? Most certainly not. I can’t help but be left with the impression that some players would bash ********** ************ Reincarnate if he bought the game.

Im sorry, but I completly disagree with this statement. Sure this game belongs to EI, but you know what, who plays this game? The paying customer. That $12.95 is what keeps this game running and if you dont have people paying that $12.95 kiss this game goodbye. The company needs to listen to its paying customers to keep them interested, that is key. If customers feel they are neglected or just flat out ignored they will go elsewhere. Unfortunatly it is happening right now, Playing the past week and a half I have seen a huge decrease in new players, and current players are leaving. All in all, its only been a little over 2 weeks and this could just be a bump in the road and things could go perfectly smooth in a little while. This is what I hope for and what I will look for as will other people.

[Varangaard]

Unfortunatly it is happening right now, Playing the past week and a half I have seen a huge decrease in new players

Obviously, because creating new accounts does not work, making it rather difficult for anyone to start. Since on the 31st of July EII either cancelled the contract with PBT or did not renew it, and their custom system was taken down, it leaves the game with no active billing system for the moment. However, if I read EII's statement right, they are making a new contract with PBT to reactivate the billing system. Hopefully they will roll in the last patch TG made too, so fix for the doublebilling issues will be in place for good measure.

[Chioxin]

Im sorry, but I completly disagree with this statement. Sure this game belongs to EI, but you know what, who plays this game? The paying customer. That $12.95 is what keeps this game running and if you dont have people paying that $12.95 kiss this game goodbye. The company needs to listen to its paying customers to keep them interested, that is key. If customers feel they are neglected or just flat out ignored they will go elsewhere. Unfortunatly it is happening right now, Playing the past week and a half I have seen a huge decrease in new players, and current players are leaving. All in all, its only been a little over 2 weeks and this could just be a bump in the road and things could go perfectly smooth in a little while. This is what I hope for and what I will look for as will other people.

So what happens when one crowd screams "we want buffs here." and another crowd screams "we want buffs here!" and a third crowd says "We want expansion content here..." oh and there's a forth crowd saying "we want this issue fixed here!"

Point is... you aren't being ignored. Maybe it feels like it but a huge barrel of fire crackers JUST WENT OFF on EI... They are listening, they've shown they are listening... they just haven't been good at communicating to /everyone/. Likely because they are swamped doing their best to deal with the most dire problems like billing. You've seen their staff size... it's tiny compared to TG... This is going to take a good deal of time to sort out. Especially since there's some cross communication issues with PBT and other services Tulga use to use. They for some reason are not transferring properly to EII's control.. I do not point fingers, I'm just stating that Rask made it sound like that's the case. Who's fault it is ... only they know... we know nothing.

[BKBanzai]

EI has stated that they are looking for input from the playerbase as a whole, which means not discarding posts/ideas from the "rabble". That means they have reams and reams of questions, suggestions, bug reports, complaints to go through, quantify and prioritize.

Best thing people could do at this point is to wait a few weeks on making suggestions and content requests unless solicited and then begin the flood of requests .