My Review of Vanguard

[Thamoris]

This is my review of Vanguard...particulary interesting here because I mostly compare my experiences there to my experiences in Horizons. Horizons being my dominant point of comparison. Based on a 1-10 scale...with 10 being the highest. * note..I play on next to lowest graphics settings

Graphics~ 9
Beautiful graphics. The trees sway in da weend not just in one direction but in several directions. Each leaf is visable and appear to move also. The water looks great. Character models are very detailed. Slight ding for some stiff animations with some mobs.

Adventure~ 8.5
Quests are everywhere and vary greatly. Some string together as a nice story others are simple kill or delivery types. Combat is complex including bridge attacks and finishing moves. Combat animations are great ..fluid and varied. The world is massive. Flying mounts are in game. Ships are in game. You can swim and fight underwater.

Craft~9.0
I have not gone too deep into crafting. I think the score would go up if I did. Crafting has been alot of fun. Great animations. It's a true mini game within the game from controlling the temperature of a smelter to cooling / cleaning a piece with solvents to bandaging yourself should you get over zeoulous. Yes ..you can actually hurt yourself crafting ..from cuts to arm sprains. There is alot more to it..but I don't wish to write a novel here. You can build ships, house for personal plots, furniture. Furniture can be placed anywhere you want in your own..custom built house. Can even display trophies.

Performance~7
This ones a tad tough. I have a high tolerance level for poor performance ( ty Hz ). With an AMD 3500, 1 gig ram , Nvid 6600 256vram setup..I get 20-30 fps with next to lowest settings and grass turned off. This is with no tweaking. I am fine with this. Moderate stutter and such as terrain loads and 10sec lag when crossing different " chuncks " . This has improved greatly past couple of weeks and I expect it to improve more over the next month.

Comminity~9
I have come accross nothing but helpful, fun and interesting players. My questions get answered. I get buffed randomly all the time while I travel about by strangers. I have yet to have one negative experience on the PvE server. Different story on the PvP server though. I would score it a 6. PvP players were often rude. Did not answer questions readily. Had lots of obnoxious jokes in world chat. I score on PvE server because that is where I will main.

Customer Service~8
I haven't had to contact them directly for anything. I base my score on the announcements made in game. Petitions can be made in game for GM if one gets stuck..they will get you out. Their are 2+ GM on each server at any given time. They do a good job with commuicating with the player base via chat announcements and postings.

Overall rating...8.5
I think that is very good for a game that has just launched. I expect that score to be 9.5 within 1-3 months.
I would have scored Horizons a 3.5 on its launch day.

I forgot about Diplomacy...this too is a mini game within game. It shows massive potential. One guild mate of mine completed a diplomacy quest that gave +25 to everyone crafting in this one particular town for an hour ! And it does that everytime someone completes the quest. It's done as a card game..with responses being on cards..which are played against npc responses. If played correctly...the rewards seem to be great and can effect the entire server!!
Anyone else playing Vanguard...feel free to post your review here too !!!

[C`gan]

Have they fixed the incompatibility issue with dual core computers yet? Before live, my dual core that could run 60 fps in Horizons was struggling to stay in double digits 90% of the time. Found out near the end of beta that it wasn't dual core compatible.

[Thamoris]

I have not heard any news pertaining directly to duel core cpus, BUT I have talked about performance with people that have duel core cpus and they are getting good performance. Their has been tons of patches related to improving performance. My fps went up 30% in the final week of beta alone. I strongly suspect that you will have no problem with your cpu ...though I wouldn't expect the same fps you get in Horizons..in VG. You would probably get 30-40 fps...depending on your graphics settings and how deep you are willing to go to tweak your settings. Assuming you have a good graphics card and 2 gigs of ram...or even 1 gig.

[Steelclaw]

AMD dual core cpus have a problem with the timestamp counter on each core getting out of sync with each other. This isn't a big deal for most apps, though games don't like jumping back and forth in time whenever the thread/process gets scheduled on a different core. There is a patch from AMD that addresses this issue and keeps the TSCs in sync (look for "AMD dual core optimizer").

Otherwise, the simple fix is to open up the task manager, show processes, find the one for your game, right click, set cpu affinity, and select only one cpu. Now it will only get scheduled on a single core. Downside is, you'll need to do this every time you load up. Upside is, the game feels like its running on a single core system.

[katt31m]

The fact that this game was made by the origonal creators of EQ is strongly evident. To me and my wife this was simply Everquest rehashed with new graphics. We beta tested it until the end and quite simply were amazed they released it with some very big problems still in game. Such as a sever CTD problem when entering tight quarters (caves).
Its a beautiful game with lots of nice graphics but not something I would enjoy.

[Thamoris]

Wait...perhaps I should clearify.
Only post reviews and comments that aggree and support my own 100% !
just kidding...hehe
No game is for everyone. I like hearing everyones points of view. I never played Eq so that would not have occured to me, but it makes sense. I'm lovin the game either way. I have many of my early addictive type game play feelings back from back in the day in Horizons. That feeling we all play for. I go to bed thinking about what I want to do in game the next day . I've missed that feeling. It's fun to have it back.

[C`gan]

Thanks for the info, Thamoris and Steelclaw. I have an Intel duo core, so the AMD timestamp isn't a problem for me, but is useful for others.

The one part I did hate was being locked into a single craft class. No switching back and forth. From the way I understand it, outfitters, blacksmiths, and artificers are all needed to build, but only artificers can place the resources the other two make for the structure itself (be it ship or house). Is this correct?

[Thamoris]

It is my understanding that parts made from all craft schools will be needed to build ships and plot strucuture.
It is true...you can only have one craft class...and 2 harvesting classes.
The freedom Horizons offered in both adventure and craft multi classing is truely unique.
That will be the main thing I miss from my Horizons days, BUT...what I gained in other areas of gameplay have more than made up for it..for me.
A big plus for me is..... servers are up ! and will stay up for years to come with tons and tons of updates/content/fixes/tweaks/..and of course..I'm sure..numerous expansions. All those multi classes aren't doing me any good on Chaos atm. Horizons started to give me the feeling I was part of some kind of cruel ..college science experiment. Now I feel like a normal..paying customer again..with normal paying customer rights. That ..in and of itself allows alot of wiggle room when comparing my game in VG vs. my game in HZ.
My number one regret...Is leaving my Horizons friends...I miss my guildmates, though a few have transitioned over..I wish they all would.
However...I understand each gamer has their own path to follow and I greatly respect this.

[Kerech]

I'll add my own experiences with diplomacy, since I've done quite a bit of that.

The Diplomacy aspect of this game is amazing. I spent almost all of last Saturday doing a *long* diplomacy quest with my dark elf sorceror. It involved blackmailing npcs, tricking them into meeting you in remote places and then having them assassinated. I spent about 6 hours on the quest and am not done yet. And it's not that it's a grind - it's just a huge frickin' quest!

One step you have to parley with a guard. The stakes are high - if you lose the parley, he kills you. And he's a skilled negotiator - it took me 3 tries before I finally talked him into what I needed.

Diplomacy takes a lot of getting used to, but once you get the hang of it, it makes sense. You enter a parley with a slate of 5 diplomacy cards. You pick what cards you want to use before beginning the parley and once it begins you can't switch cards. Depending on your diplomacy skill vs. the skill of your opponent, you start out with an equal number of points, or +1/-1 (the higher leveled participant has less points starting out).

There are 4 aspects to each parley. Things like Inspiration, etc. can't remember them off the top of my head. Each card you play advances the conversation in either your direction or the opponent's direction and either gives you or your opponent points in one of these 4 aspects. You can't play a card unless you have enough points in a particular aspect, so sometimes you have to play lesser cards (which might give advantage to your opponent) to give yourself points to play bigger cards later. As cards are played, the conversation pointer moves back and forth between you and your opponent. Each round that passes with the conversation pointer in your side of the board, you lose a point, each turn it's in your opponent's favor, they lose a point. First one to countdown their points to 0 wins the parley (hence the reason higher level starts with less points).

That probably makes it as clear as mud I'm sure, but it's really easy once you get the hang of it, and there's an extensive in-game tutorial to get you started. The real trick is to pick the right set of 5 cards before you begin and play them carefully. Then as your conversation advances, you get information in your story window which is where the fun comes - reading the storyline you are building as you play.

[Frith-Rae]

I will respond with the LENGTHY!! (so be ready - but then its detailed) review I posted up of my experiences in Closed and Open beta I posted on Rant Refugees, and then with a response I just finished off as to my main "complaints" with the game that is briefer. So if you don't want to read the *whole* thing, skip down to the 2nd post as it summarizes what I didn't like about the game's philosophy.

First post - and yes it IS LONG. Cuz I'm thorough in game reviews . Also realize a few things have changed (IMO not for the better as I hint at in my 2nd post). I did try to remove the things that really didnt apply to release anymore.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anyway, I got in the closed beta right before the 4th phase shutdown. So I got to play about two weeks before this latest phase, fifth phase, open phase, started up.

Here are my thoughts - if you have any questions I can try and answer them, however, I have two characters both of which aren't yet 10 - so if your questions are about end game (level 50 right now) or extended content - I ain't there lol.

So this is just my experience playing the "beginner" portion of the game (still playing), on two races, two continents, and two classes. I'll probably, if I have time or an inkling before release, start a third race on the thirt continent I"ve not been too yet.

Most of my comparisons will be to WoW, as that's its main competition I guess and the game most of us are familiar with enough to use it as a "source point". Also because, well, at least for me so far - it is WoW.

Also please note, I've never played an SOE or "Brad" game before. Never EQ, never EQII - so I can't really comment on how this compares. Though over the global chat I've heard discussions comparing tightly to EQII, and some have said its "EQ 1 1/2" or its "EQIII" - again thou that's global chat personal opinion of people lol.


I'll try and not babble aimlessly here so I'm giving myself topics:

Graphics:

Biggest thing I'm enjoying. Biggest "improvement" I've seen over other games I"ve played right now. I prefer realistic graphics like in Horizons over cartoony grahpics like in WoW. Now WoW has its beautiful scenery and its effects and positives - but when it comes down to it I"ll take realism over cartoon anyday. VG certainly delivers in this. The realm, the scenery, the sky, gorgeous. The amount of detail AVAILABLE is extensive, unfortuantely unless you have a top of the line current system - you won't get ot see all the detail available. On the other hand, with my current system the graphics I see are more than fine, they are still gorgeous, and I'm probably mostly sacrificing distance rendered, some detail, some grass production, shadow detail, and volumetric clouds.

And honestly, even with my shadow detail turned down I still have a shadow that looks just like me, moves when I move, grows with the sun, etc.etc. The threes and builds and NPCs do the same - so I dont' really feel I've lost any graphical quality.

The clouds are gorgeous too, but turning them off helps the framerate for me alot . I saw them for about 10 days and then turned'them off to play smoother.

The devs and fanbois say that the servers are still test servers and the hardware and such hasnt' been optimized and so that is the reason for the lag and poor FPS. Have to wait till release I guess to see if that's true or not.

Water's gorgeous, land's gorgeous - effects in lighting are gorgeous and excellent. Honestly its my biggest plus about this game - if you want beauty in the realistic sense, VG delivers.

The only negatives I've found about the graphics is that character graphics don't seem as detailed as the scenery, some of the criticism even says it feels like '2d'. I never thought it was that extreme, but since I'm playing two humanoid animal races (Volmane(Wolf) and Kershashshasomething(cat)), so far that's been a disappointment in the difference between my character's face not having alot of depth or detail whereas I can see five blades of grass waving in the wind at my feet.

The other negative is that night is FRIGGIN DARK! I refuse to change my personal monitor settings to adjust for this as every other game I"ve played, including FEAR and DOOM III hasn't had a darkness that seems as fucking dark as this. In my settings the gamma, brightness, etc. are turned ALL the way up and it still seems to dark. So dark that I'm running into mobs I don't even see until they hit me. Some consider that more "realism" for me its crossed over into "immersion annoyance land". Now, you are given torch light for yourself and it does definitely help - but it only lights the immediate area around you, and not the distance (its a torch, not a 360 spotlight rofl).

Nights right now also seem longer than the daytime, which frustrates my own personal play experience. My 2nd started town as a Volumane is a tribal looking/giant tent town laid out between hills, trees, rocks, etc. There are no town maps, and the world map is very basic. There were several times I stopped playing simply because I coudln't see ******** to find my NPC in the dark and was running in cricles lost because due tot he lack of color detail in the nighttime, I coudln't tell where the crap I was or was suppose to be. Its not even a "big" town all that much, but it took me several days to figure my way around - and as soon as it got night I was instantly confused and usually lost. Just led to frustration and me wanting to sit there until it grew daylight again (which I actually did several times).

So realistic darkness - yea sure I guess. When I had the "nerve" to make a comment about being able to see at night at WoW I was told to adjust my moniter and that it was suppose to be "realistic". Someone did say that EQI was darker....

Oh and for Hz pepole who kept griping about not having doors - you have those now. Course they lag you to hell as they open adn close and you get stuck in them and have to /stuck yourself out. But there are your frickin doors. Right now, seem a huge hassle not worth it to me - I prefer being able to run in and out and not stop - click the door - wait a few seconds - get a delayed door sound and some lag - run in but be careful not to run into the door so work yourway into the doorway....and then be where I want to be. The buildings with one door right down the hall inside the other are most fun.../sarcasm off .

Character Creation:

Mixed feelings on this. Compared to WoW you're having a happy fun ball. Something like 19 races, all of which can be "highly customized" (or so it seems, more about that in a second), and like..I think 16 classes divided into four areas (offensive fightes, defensive fighters, healers, and casters - four in each).

So that part also beats WoW IMO. I'm all about customization and variety as much as possible. And from what I read on the boards, the classes are quite different from each other even among the four categories. Course I"m not an expert - I play two .

Now as for the character being customizable graphically - I was both impressed and disappointed at the same time. I was impressed because I saw Oblivion-like character creation options as far as head/body/arm/leg individual detail changes. As in Oblivion you can adjust many factors in each of these with a slider - including upteen hundred options for your face/jawline/forehead/eyebrow etc.etc. SO I was like "woo you can really make yourself look individual"...but..not exactly.

16 races, 3 of which are animalistic - however they are all built on the exact same model. Shoulder set, body set, head etc, though youcan change these dimensions they all start with the exact same model. And when it comes to facial detail in the animal races anyway, unless you make huge changes to yourself or someone really pays attention to detail by zooming in oin your face - you're probably the only one who will ever knwo that your nose is longer and your face is slimmer. Because even the options to extend/retract such things are only within certain limits.

So the cat and the wolf still look more like people. I couldn't get an extended muzzle on my wolf to make it look more wolfy. I couldn't extend the cat's muzzle to make it look more blocky - which is what I wanted - more lion-esque. So while you may take a long time to get that "perfect look", standing next to someoen with similiar body dimensions as you noone may even realize the differences in your faces.

Now, I've not played a hunmanoid race so I dont know if it shows more on them. That will probably be my third character if I bother with one.

But right now, supposedly only mere weeks from release, you have four color patterns for the fur on the wolf or on the cat.

There are no color block sliders - which to me, having seen that in WISH, and in *cough* other games I testing, I was really really surprised. In this way its more like WoW where you cycle through your four skins of color patterns and well..that's it. You can't lighten or darken them, change the patterns or colors.

Again, I've not played with human hair to see if this is the same, so I dont know. But the lack of color customization was what was disappointing to me given the greater detail going into sliders for every part of your body (*including hand and feet size*). Eye color is also on a slider of its own - but no picking colors. You cycle thorugh what they allow. And for some reason on the cat you can have a different color pupil from the iris - but its all on one slider. So while you might want purple with yellow - you may not find it as an option together, though both are options seperatly on the slider - just not "together" if that makes sense.

Gameplay:

Think WoW only slower. Seriously. Its WoW. I hear pepole on global chat putting WoW down and how this game is so much better and I am thinking "um...this newbie game is the EXACT SAME THING!! EVEN THE KEY CODES!!" . So..yea.

I pop into my first newbie town and am welcomed by the familiar sight of yellow markers over NPCs heads. I may not can see the NPC all that well cuz its night, but I can see the markers. They are shields with like swords over themor something. They are red if you can't do the quest yet, yellow if its open, blue if you're on it, and green if you're done.

Quest log key was "L", so that wasn't hard to find . Tracking quests is autobuilt in for you to turn on or off as you wish, and many quests will provide you compass locations to find them. You can also turn on or off these map markers if you're trying to find something else and get tired of the dots on your map screen. When its on and your current quest, yoru compass will also have a red line on it when you turn in the right direction - so that's always nice.

From the start the UI is functionall ALL BY ITSELF OMG!! Take a clue Blizzard . It has like 10 bars available, though right now you can only show 5 or 6, which can be turned on or off or moveable all from the interface window. Also from interface you can move EVERYTHING on your screen from the get go. So need no addons to be able to move ANYTHING (yea WoW, hear that...).

((Side comment - so I guess in this way its better like Horizons' UI..lol))

Right now gameplay is relatively bug free at least for my experiences. Everything I"m sent to get is there, tabluates correctly, returns correctly, rewards etc.

I play a Warrior and a Necromancer. Nec's are the only true pet based class in game. There is no hunter. I started warrior as I like melee fighting and it is less tank class more damage class, though supposedly will have more tank abilities in the class "reviews". Right now "defensive" stance does nothing extra.

Oh yea, that too - so far I see no differences between the WoW warrior and the VG warrior. They both have stances, you start with the balance/neutral and gain the "defensive" (tanking) stance later, and possibly a third I dont know. You have attacks and personal buffs that can be used depending on stance. And so far, its playing like my WoW warrior.

The Necromancer is a pet caster class. DPS and using the undead. Your Pet is an "abomination" which looks like something out of the SPAWN universe and functions the same as a WoW pet. You can put "grafts" on your Abomination, which is basically two equip slots that you start at level 10 to use to buff him up. I'm not 10 yet, but I think its like armor and stamina or weapons or something like that. You get your first abomination at 5 and your 2nd at 30. Top level is 50 - I didn't see a traiing for a third abomination at 50 but it may not be in yet as beta limit is 40 .

As far as I know the only other classes that use any type of pet are the Druid and the Shamen. Druids can "tame" a pet for a minute and a half from what is around them to fight on their side. Shamen's at level 15 pick a totem animal they shift to - a phoenix, wolf, or bear - and that's their specialty.

As far as I can tell or can find out - that's it for pet classes . A bit disappointing for me, as i prefer pet classes but i prefer being able to tame whatever I want to make it more customizeable and keep that pet as long as I can to *shrugs*.

As for leveling and quests - WoW just slower. I've played since Dec. 21st, and I've two characters, one level 7, and one almot 9 (necro's more fun actually for me, normally I dont like caster classes but he is faster than the warrior). In WoW I know I can hit level 10 in what...an hour or three? So you're still going out and killing XYZ, retriving XYZ, etc. it jsut takes longer.

Now having said that it doesn't SEEM to be any more or less of a grind than WoW. I'm at level 8 on my Necro and pushing to 10 but I don't feel its overly slow or frustrating to get there. Plenty of quests so far (though I hear some are dead levels right now where you have to hunt as its not all smoothly in game yet) so I've always got something to go do to get experience. (in reference to the remarks below, this was BEFORE they 'balanced' the experience - this changes)

You train up new abilities every even level (gee that's new...).

COMBAT:

Here I will just remark on a little systemic difference that the population at large seems to think is a bit dumb but it doesnt look like its going anywhere . Cuz otherwise, fighting works the same as fighting anywhere.

You have three bars instead of just the two in WoW. Health, Endurance, and Energy. Endurance and Energy are what effect what you can do when, and are what your attacks burn up when you use them. These also determine crafting rates, harvesting rates, carrying load, etc. THink of Energy like the rage bar in WoW or the Mana bar only it starts off at fully full and as you do things it depelets. Same with Endurance, longer the fight, more higher attacks you pull off, you run out of endurance and are limited until it gains back up. Energy at least for a necro is used up faster than endurance, which is why I think of energy as mana .

The main problem/difference is that mob level doesnt' determine your ability to fight it. When you click on a mob there are these "dots" that surround the mob picture. They aren't all that obvious either and I never noticed them until I read about them

Each dot stands for something different, and there are also varying colors . Its basically each successive dot is a harder mob for you at your level and it at its level.

You have a level eight with 1 dot woudl be really easy to a level 8. Two dots means equal to eight I believe. Three dots is a bit harder. FOur dots is really hard, probably need af riend. Five dots is definitley need some friends. Six dots is 'omg its gonna kill you you need 10 friends' .

So even if it says level 8, if its a level 8 with 4 dots, you'll probably die alone.

The dots can be varying colors, which also meant something more. Grey, white, blue, yellow, purple, red, etc. So its like level 8 with 3 white dots may actually be easier for you than a level 8 with 2 blue dots.

Point is, is frickin confusing and the population agrees. They feel pick one system and go with that, but dont be incorporating two or three of them at once. Its just overly complicated for no reason.

CRAFTING:

ok - I' not a crafter so while I tested this area I've not gone deep into it.

Its divided into two areas like WoW - you got your main craft area (like blacksmith, outfitter, and...something...), and your supporting things like woodcutting, reaping, skinning, etc and these are called *harvesting* talents. You go to the trainer and do the little starter quest and then pick it out. You go out into the world, find your nodes, and dig/harvest/skin stuff.

The main difference is more like Horizons - you can have a full suit of crafter armor AND harvestor armor seperately - that provides bonuses to each. These suits will auto-equip depending on what you're doing.

I.e. When I'm out fighting I"m in my fighting gear, as soon as I kill it and start to skin, my gear swtiches to my harvest gear, my sickle comes out, and I start slicing. Compelte with sound effects and blood - and movement - though from the back it looks like I'm slicing my own wrists! XD

The Character Screen has several tabs for each of these areas. You have your fighter tab which displays your paperdoll with its fighting armor equipped, and its stats, abilities, skill levels etc. But you also have a crafter tab, a harvest tab, a diplomacy tab, and a mount tab. Each tab has a seperate paperdoll equipped with whatever you have for each of those areas - and each tab shows a different set of stats/abilities/skill levels that are related to that tab. Which is kinda nice.

Crafting itself isnt' as mind numbing as Hz, but more involved than WoW's. You go to your stations like in Hz - smelter, anvil, finishing table, refining table, whatever, and you open up your formula and press certain keys - and then it gets more complicated . You're given a choice of actions depending on your level that can decrease, stablize, or increase the quality of the craft item you are making. Each action costs a differetn amount of craft points and the GOAL is to make a high as quality of item as possible before you run out of your craft points and fail.

Each action has its own animation and sound effects as you progress through the progress. For example making cloth goes from rinsing the item, to sewing and ironing/stretching, to cutting, to washing/buffing, to completion.

You raise in craft by visitng your trainer and learnign receipies and getting the items yourself OR by fulfilling NPC work orders where they give you everytihng you need and you return the items for a fee. In these you keep nothing you've made and you have no supplies left over, but you don't have to get anything yourself and it raises your skill for money. So I thought that was nice, though I'm not sure how that will effect intercharater dependency.

Also in game, there is suppose to be player housing - though not clear on how dependent on crafting that will be - that is not instanced. You can also buy Ships - but not craft ships.

DIPLOMACY: "the innovation"

Diplomacy is a third area of of advancment (fighting, crafting, diplomacy) your character can go into. As far as I can tell, you can do all three - it isn't a pick and choose thing. This is the "new" gameplay VG is touting regarding the social aspect of the game. So far it only seems to affect NPC faction standings and such - though supposedly later on quest releasements/npc quests options could be dependent on your diplomacy skills and level with that faction.

Its a fun little mini-game though. Maybe cuz its different I dont know. It is a bit complicated, and from the NPC training I coudln't follow wth it was telling me to do at all so it was more of a trial and error thing for me - figuring out on my own what all the little colored dots on the playing screen mean.

Its like a little card game in a discussion, you literally have your "strategy deck" that you must pick out before hand of five "cards", the "strategies" on the card are the various discussion points you can make in the argument. If its not on your 5card deck, even if its in your ability, you can't use it in that conversation as you can't place the cards during the "conversation session". So you play yuour cards, back and forth, based on the points you have that each card spends to play (that you get by playing other cards in your deck to set yourself up or by the strat used by the NPC that gives you certain points) and when your turn runs out the idea is to have more points on your sidethan on the other - you win! DING! QUest continues/opens up/whatever .

Problem is there are like 5 different types of conversation, 5 differne types of moves you can make (like five sets of decks), and each type of conversation throws out one of those options.

So if you dont remember that "persuasion" throws out "aggressive" statement line - and you keep two "aggressive" statement cards in your deck - they're useless and you're trying to win with three.

Again, further detail that I guess is suppose to add to the "skill" it takes to do it, but if you just write it down... (I believe towards the end before release they added in statements before you take a discussion on about what type it is and therefore which type of arguments don't apply)

But its a neat little mini-game, fun cuz its new - I'm ASSUMING there is a point to it further down the line as far as opening up content for players who've worked up their diplomacy skill vs. others.

ODDS AND ENDS:

(yea its long we're almost done - I wanted to be thorough for anyoen who gives a Bleep).

Neat - you can get a mount if you have the cash at level 1 and ride form the beginning. First mount costs about 12 silver which you'll find you have between level 8-10 - first mount also slowest, but its a horsey mount. Also many races have a mount quest for the same thing at level 10 if you don't have the cash or dont care if you wait. Waiting can be annoying, as run times can be..lengthy...between areas. There are also flying mounts in game. However, when I saw these I was less than impressed. The gryphon was ok, but the 'dragon' isn't a dragon - its some weakling, skinny, small looking wyvern thing.

Not Neat (to me) - Group centric content seems to start about level 10-12. At that point you start getting more quests at your level that need more than you to finish (at your level). You don't of course "have" to group for these quests, but that means going and grinding on something until you're high enough to go back and do it alone - for less experience of course. So like what I HEAR about EQ-line of games, definiltey more group dependant/intensive.

Not neat (if they are close to release). Class revamps are going on NOW - supposedly weeks from release. They've done a couple of class overhauls, and are working on the next couple now. Each class is in the lineup to be "balanced" more correctly, course they dont call it all a "revamp" but say jus tsome of the classes are getting a total revamp. I also read on the forums that in the mean by, there are several classes almost totally lacking in progress/abilities/focus. I hear Monk is underdeveloped, Shamen Rez is currently broken, Dreadknights have like no buffs (supposedly group protection fighters), etc.etc. Pretty class determining if you ask me, and seems a bit late in the game if they plan on releasing at the end of the month - it ain't gonn be ready.

Two entire classes won't be put in till post-release - beserker and um...something else who's name I can't remember.

I hear a lot of later level content also won't be in till post-release - at least that's in the latest "beta faq" put out officially which you can read from the main site.

Oh, and the wolf/tiger/fox people don't have tails. Yea, go figure. Somethign supposedly goign in post-release but who knows when. And yea, it is wierd playing a wolf that already looks humanish with no tail...its like a human with a wolf head on. Weee.

Um..can't think of anything else to add right now. It isnt' a game I"ll be going live with. Its too much like WoW for me to stop playing WoW and lose my investment of time in my guild and character to swtich games and start over. It also appears to be even more group depednent, which being at the end game of WoW - I can tell you I don't care for .

So for me, I'm waiting for Chronicles of Spellborn and I"ll go live with it as I like its "new ideas" much more, and its a smaller company. The forums are stable, I get dev feedback to threads constantly. And right now, its servers are more stable - rofl *winks*. Small Companies FTW .

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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(2nd post I made today, summarizing my final thoughts on it all)

It wasn't so much a "grind" that turned me off. Yes it had quests absolutely. It was the "this is the same as WoW" and then "I"m forced to group by level 10 to get anything done" that I have a problem with.

Now Diplomacy was fun, yes that's true. I enjoyed that part. Crafting I don't enjoy, but they did have a different implementation system with the buttons - but crafting is a grind if it takes any time for me. So I didn't really comment on crafting as I'm always biased .

But I played 4-5 characters over several months, different classes, every one of them stalled out by level 10 (my vulmane warrior stalled at level 8) because I couldn't do a single quest alone. *Not A Single ONE!* The experience in December was FINE I thought, not fast enough to burn through levels (like say early WoW), but fast enough to where it felt productive. But in January when they "balanced it" it seriously became more of a grind in that aspect. My experience CREPT along, even killing mobs a level above me, with 2 or 3 dots, and with the full quest rewards. I couldn't believe the difference between one day and the next with how slow it became. Then it started to feel more pointless, and then when I literally hunted the continent for a single quest with mobs I could take alone - it was no longer fun. I switched to level up a few other classes, only to meet with the same brick wall (for me).

I enjoy grouping now - I really do. I don't enjoy forced grouping - where if I login my ability to advance is determinent on how available friends and guildmates will be and where they are on their level progression.

The fact that it is *exactly* like WoW in the quest implementation didn't make me want to leave WoW for the Clone of quests.

I can just do quests and get from level 1-70 no problemo in WoW. I don't have to hunt to be able to find something to do alone. And I never have to spend anytime killing random mobs to try and get to another level, so I can complete quests I cant' do alone at my level. So don't say its a "nice change" to be able to level 10 or 20 levels based on quests alone. Its not a change at all - its the new norm as far as I'm concerned. Or it needs to be. It is for me now - because I hate just running out and grinding out mobs to level with no purpose. (I.e. quest purpose - I need that extra reward).

So no, VG is not original in that. I already got that two years ago.

I mean it says something when after I've created my character (which they also nerfed sadly), I enter into the world and my first reaction is "oh..its WoW...but takes a hell of a lot longer to level"

I'm glad you enjoy it, and I agree with you on the fanbois aspect in the chat. Hells forfend if I said anything remotely in crtique of the game before I was told that I was a child and needed to return to WoW, and how they enjoyed getting pisspoor exp. for killing things for hours and how they wished it was harder...
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read all that? I promise its good info if you're looking at the game - others appreciated my thououghness . Hope that helps.

[Thamoris]

Fantastic posts ! Great information and perspectives ! Tyvm for sharing...
I would like to point out that the game really opens up after lv 10. I have found plenty of quests I can do solo over lv 10 with both Cleric and Paladin. At lv 10 one starts gaining attribute points every 1/4 of a lv..so 4 times during each level you can put attribute points in areas where you wish to grow in. Since I solo alot...I put my points more in healing areas to increase survivability and decrease downtime. Alot depends too on the gear you get. I have no problem finding content up into the high teens to solo on with good gear and good self healing. Some schools solo easier than others.

I think you are correct on your references to WoW. I can see Eq in it too. It makes sense really. Vanguard has always claimed that the aren't trying to reinvent the mmorpg..but simply pull from what works..add a couple things and make it work better. I suspect the lv 1-10 experience is made WoW like on purpose to ease the likely transition of what I am sure ..will be numerous WoW converts. I suspect later on it will become more Eq like. This is based on the hundreds of posts I've read. Nothing wrong with that...after all..they are the 2 most successful mmorpg's ever. Wouldn't make sense to pull ideas off failed mmorpg's. The Japanese didn't invent the automobile..they took the idea and made it better and look at em now. ( though I still prefer to buy an old school muscle car anyday..just cause...they cool ).

I will also like to add though...dozens of changes/tweaks/fixes are being done every day..sometiems twice a day..to all aspects of gameplay.

I agree on the customization stuff particularly. I found it odd that I could change the shape of the nose on my Dwarf 100 different ways..but only had 4 choices in hair styles.


Greats posts yall...I chuckled several times. Well thought out with lots of time put in them. I deffinetly appreciate yalls viewpoints ..particularly since we all agree on one thing......In a perfect world...somebody would fix Horizons up nice and proper and we would all still be lovin life there !!

[Thamoris]

Oh...You now hold the record for the longest post I have ever read. Outdoing my own personal best...and I'm known for long posts. I didn't even get bored the entire time ! Well done!

[Frith-Rae]

wow thanks!! *blushes* That really makes me proud! seriously!

I'm glad people didn't just skip it, cuz I had put alot of thought before writing into it on what i was going to say.

As for leveling, having recently heard that htey nerfed the exp AGAIN, I wanted to smack someone. I coudlnt' believe they went and made it slower. I can understand your "ease of transition" point, but anyone leveling up to 20 in WoW crossing over is going to balk at the snail pace of leveling there.

IMO of course .

[Thamoris]

wow thanks!! *blushes* That really makes me proud! seriously!

I'm glad people didn't just skip it, cuz I had put alot of thought before writing into it on what i was going to say.

As for leveling, having recently heard that htey nerfed the exp AGAIN, I wanted to smack someone. I coudlnt' believe they went and made it slower. I can understand your "ease of transition" point, but anyone leveling up to 20 in WoW crossing over is going to balk at the snail pace of leveling there.

IMO of course .

I can tell you put alot of thought into you post...it shows.
It's true..leveling is on the slow side in VG. I think that is a good thing. It keeps most of the " instant gratification " types away. They can keep playing WoW for all I care. I'd rather have 100k mature players than 8 million " are we there yet?" types.
It took me over 9 months to ding my first 100 in Horizons and thats with 40+ hour a week playing. Mind ya..I level slowly due to my tendency to goof around too much. I also was a avid anti-power leveler..as I like to enjoy a game the way it was meant to be enjoyed..and don't like to group much.
My point being...I find nothing wrong with leveling slow...There is nothing to do once ya reach the top cept going around talking about how cool it is to be max level. I always end up just making an alt and doing it all over again anyways.
Its the journey I enjoy ... destination doesn't matter.

[Aria]

So is Vanguard worth purchasing? Or should I hold out for the free trial and/or the release of LotrO? Haven't made the plunge to buy the hard copy yet (hate to waste 50 bucks on something that might not appeal to me).

[Helcat]

So is Vanguard worth purchasing? Or should I hold out for the free trial and/or the release of LotrO? Haven't made the plunge to buy the hard copy yet (hate to waste 50 bucks on something that might not appeal to me).

I'll keep it simple.


IMO, yes. It's worth purchasing.

[Thamoris]

I have a 3 month subscription. I don't see myself going anywhere for a few years. To each his/her own though.

[Aria]

Ok then, hopefully this week I'll be able to get it.

I mean, can it possibly be more of a grindfest than HZ is? Doubtful heh

[Thamoris]

It's most commonly described as a mix of WoW and Eq1.

Alot of questing eases any grind feeling early on...and I suspect later levels are either more group oriented or a bit grindish if you don't like groups...BUT ...I expect that to change as the Devs add more solo-able quests to endgame.

Horizons is almost completly grind ...it's nothing like that. As with most games..it is what ya make it. Some make it a grind..others make it a grouping game. It's flexible like that. Plus you have the crafting game and diplomacy game to play...both can provide a complete game in and of themselves.

Look me up on the Thunderaxe server if you like. We have 44 members and growing fast. Half of which are Horizons players of the recent past and a few still current Horizons subscribers. Legendary Heroes...same name Thamoris.

Also some other Horizons players have spawned what I can safely assume are some mighty fine clans on other servers as well.

[Thamoris]

Ok then, hopefully this week I'll be able to get it.

I mean, can it possibly be more of a grindfest than HZ is? Doubtful heh

If you can handle Horizons..you can easily handle Vanguard....and without all the drama ta boot !