One less that would return.

[gopher65]

XiaoChanLung, you are missing the point entirely.

You are quite right. They can set up any rules they want to. These are THEIR forums, not ours. The rules they set up are fine, in principle. What I want are specific rules. I don't want them to say "use your own judgement" on forum signatures. I want a specific rule "max 100x500" (or whatever).

I think we can all agree that very few of us ever post anything that *we* consider to be out of place, or bad (non-trolls anyway). If we do so, we don't mind if it gets deleted. But if we post something normal, and it gets changed, we get mighty ticked off (or at least I do. And apparently so does Kumu).

Why is this important? Well, lets just consider a scenario for a moment:

Let us say that I create a signature. It is 250x700 (I've seen siggys easily that big before on unmodded forums. In fact, I've seen siggys that were the size of a sheet of A4 paper, but that's just silly). Lets say I put in... 3 hours to photoshopping this siggy, and I'm pretty proud of it.

I put it on the forum, and it gets deleted, with the explanation that it was too big. At first I'm kind of angry, but then I shrug my shoulders and move on. Whatever, it was too big. Because of the way this particular siggy is put together, I can't just shrink it, cause it will ruin it (lots of siggys are like that, especially if they have text). So I go and I spend another three hours creating a new siggy. I was told to just use my own judgement since this forum has no set and fast rules, so I make this one is 175x500. It looks really cool to me, and I'm happy with it. In fact, I'm kind of glad my first one was removed, cause this one is even better.

I go back onto the forums, and I place my new siggy. It gets deleted. Opps. Turns out the mods will delete anything bigger than 100x400, but they refuse to tell me that fact, instead telling me to use my own judgement again. At this point I am so freaking ticked that I cancel my accounts, pick up my ball, and go leave. I think to myself: "I put six hours into those siggys, and they CAN'T EVEN BOTHER TO TELL ME WHAT SIZE I AM ALLOWED TO USE!"

And all that could have been avoided by giving a specific rule. Easy peasy. This WILL happen if they don't create hard rules. It isn't a matter of if, it is a matter of when. Oh look. It already happened. That's why this thread is here.

[gopher65]

I'm not saying this to be a jerk. I'm trying to help you see that this is a very very very minor thing that requires no work to fix, but will tick some people off if it is left the way it is. That's all.

EDIT: I know XiaoChanLung and Velea disagree with us on whether people will get angry. Maybe the two of them, and those like them, won't get angry if things like this continue to happen. But people like me will. Isn't that reason enough to specify what the forum rules actually are instead of making us guess?

It's not like we're asking for the moon here.

[Kala]

When responding to another poster, treat them as though they were standing in front of you and you were speaking in public to them. If you wouldn't say something to the person face to face, do not say it on the forum or in a PM to them.

I know people who are going to run into issues with this one, as well. They tend to be...hmm...to the point and bluntly honest. And they would say things that probably wouldn't be acceptable on the forums, but since they'd also be willing to say these things in public RL... Well, according to these rules, it's allowed.

I agree that the rules need to be a little more defined.

[gopher65]

I know people who are going to run into issues with this one, as well. They tend to be...hmm...to the point and bluntly honest. And they would say things that probably wouldn't be acceptable on the forums, but since they'd also be willing to say these things in public RL... Well, according to these rules, it's allowed.

I agree that the rules need to be a little more defined.

I am one of those people. I'm told by people I know that I'm a little bit... weird. I don't lie often, I'm blunt, and I'm not tactful at all. If you ask "do I look fat in this?" I will give you an honest answer, and I will truely not understand why you'd get mad at me if you didn't like the answer I gave. You asked a question, and I told The Truth as I saw it. What more could you ask for?

I also have a lot of trouble with the "hi, how are you" and the "nice day outside isn't it?" I don't run on telling people about my day and *why* I'm feeling how I feel, but if you ask me "How Are You", I'll tell you. "I'm feeling really depressed today, and I have an odd craving for mashed potatoes and roast beef, but I don't have any at home. That sucks doesn't it?" And then I'll walk away considering that a perfectly normal conversation. I'm told that it isn't.

Other people are so weird. They lie for no reason at all.

[Vahrokh]

To be honest, I'd give those poor 3 guys a rest and let them focus on reviving the game before going anal on the lack of detailed sub-rules on how to type here.

And survive in the mean time with some common sense.

When everything fails, imagine Peaches is still the forum mod and you don't want your thread locked ;P (hey I am joking /purr!)

[LaughingOtter]

Even when there are stacks of rules, there are those who call them 'vague' and talk of selective enforcement and moderator whims. Adding more rules only results in more policing. Set a maximum size for sigs, and a moderator must be tasked with policing them. Forbid specific words, and players will argue over which words should be on the list and which should not. Creating rules gives rise to rules lawyers.

The moderator moderates best by moderating in moderation. I like the more general guidelines because they speak to our behavior as a whole rather than individual actions. It also makes it easier to speak out when you feel a guideline is not being followed by the moderators. The more rules there are, the easier it is to justify an action which would be found unreasonable when examined on its own.

[Kumu Honua]

Been here since pre-Beta, when you could get salt rock in nearly every third harvest when mining, and we used to do the "mining shuffle" when a resource was gone. I remember when there weren't any adult dragons because apparently they weren't finished. I remember how pissed off people were then, and there were a LOT of people ingame at the time. So it goes with Horizons; people are either devoted to the point of insanity, or they're whinging about everything wrong in the game...but they still play it.

Yes, yes. Pre-beta. You can give all the credentials you want. Funny thing is that I was there also. So mine are just as strong. (Though I never once saw a post from XiaChanLung in the beta forums. I sure know that I posted there as Kumu Honua.)

And as I've said before, just because someone may not think they're being vulgar doesn't mean they aren't being.

And who are you to define vulgar? Heck, even the moderators (Who incidentally HAVE the power that you do not) have not defined anything.

They have said "Use your judgment" for all the rules. Well, my judgment and your judgment and their judgment are all different.

I personally don't see anything wrong with "inexpensive lady of the night who happens to do drugs". I would say it all day long. I don't find it the least bit offensive.

Freedom of speech arguments don't fly with me, because freedom doesn't mean "Do as you please", it should be "responsibility of speech" - being aware that one's words may have repercussions and negative actions, and deciding when it's best to do so. Unfortunately, that's nearly impossible on the internet because you can't actually just reach through the screen and punch someone if they're being a prat. Hence those "fascist rules".

You see, this is where I can tell that you have no clue what I am talking about and are just a prude who assumes that I must have been cussing like a sailor and am defending my rights of free speech.

I made a metaphor that might have been tasteless. Akin to dead baby jokes at the worst. You see, it's also a term that your 12 year old is saying at school.

The problem is that the "fascist rules" don't EXIST. The rules as they are are ineffectual. They mean nothing. THAT is the problem.

A forum isn't a democracy, it's a dictatorship, and one accepts that when one presses the "I agree".

Funny thing is that when I pressed "I agree", the rules were laid out and I followed them as best I could. When I pressed "I agree" the forums were PG-13.

For example: The following signature was a hot debate among the prudes of the world. It was called ********. The rules allowed my signature to stand as it is PG-13. (As a link because the prudes might have their precious virgin eyes burn out of their sockets.)

http://members.cox.net/kumu_honua/KumuSig.jpg

To me the rules are pretty clear, but to someone who is "always a wee bit vulgar and ever so slightly miffed", I imagine it's a greyer area. And no matter how much they wrote out the rules, someone would STILL find a way to get round them (why else does the ***** thing exist other than as a workaround for people who absolutely INSIST on swearing?).

You see, this is the problem. Where you might be a tight laced bible thumping son of a preacher man, I may instead be the son of a motherless goat. With these two extremes, there will be a disagreement in what is and is not vulgar. The rules don't help one bit in that regard. They are open to interpretation. As they currently stand, my original moderated message in my opinion was fine. However the moderator in question did not think so.

The rules are so grey that one moderator will censor where another will allow it. This will simply create inconsistency and people will believe that certain moderators are simply abusing their position because they don't like someone because "Hey, you didn't moderate Johnny! He said the same thing!"

If it's a "WoW attitude", then perhaps the entire three pages of posts after the "setting things straight" thread should be removed; and also the posts above mine of "can I have your stuff"?. Maybe we need a "I'm never coming back!" thread so people can complain to their hearts content, and we can decide whether or not be can be bothered to read the rant.

You can already decide whether or not to read a thread. No one made you come and look at my "I'm not cming bak!!!!" thread now did they...

I have a hint for you, the people who are posting "Can I have your stuff" already got my stuff when EII took over from Tulga who took over from Artifact Entertainment but before EII turned into PMI and now Virtrium.

(Tell me my analogy wasn't spot on...)

[Pharcellus]

Even when there are stacks of rules, there are those who call them 'vague' and talk of selective enforcement and moderator whims. Adding more rules only results in more policing.

Of course there will be people who will say anything, regardless of whether it is true or not. That isn't a justification to avoid detailed rulesets. Selective enforcement and moderator whims are easy to deal with with a good, detailed ruleset, because you have rules for staff conduct as well as player conduct.

Set a maximum size for sigs, and a moderator must be tasked with policing them. Forbid specific words, and players will argue over which words should be on the list and which should not. Creating rules gives rise to rules lawyers.

No, policing is not an absolute; moderators are not omniscient and players can still report violations of the rules to help the mods. There's no arguing over what words should or shouldn't be censored by the players, because they aren't the ones who decide what goes on the list. As for creating rules lawyers, having ANY rules leads to that, so you're not saving anything by avoiding a good, detailed ruleset. The trick is to train your staff to be better rules lawyers than the players. It's not hard to do, since the staff helped make them.

The moderator moderates best by moderating in moderation. I like the more general guidelines because they speak to our behavior as a whole rather than individual actions. It also makes it easier to speak out when you feel a guideline is not being followed by the moderators. The more rules there are, the easier it is to justify an action which would be found unreasonable when examined on its own.

The problem is that what one moderator feels is "moderating in moderation" is actually too loose, and another is too tight. There's no standard to adhere / aspire to. It may be nice and easy for the mods to not have anything but "use your own best judgment" as a rule, but it leads to chaos and a lot of pissed off people on both sides of the fence.

It is actually harder to speak out against moderators not following subjective guidelines because you yourself are standing on unfirm ground to begin with, and it is nothing for them to say "well, that's the way I interpret the rules, and since they are our rules, what I say goes". The vaguer they are, the more this will happen.

Good rule systems are not set in stone; they are often living documents which adapt to the needs of the community and the company.

[Fyrentennimara]

If it's a "WoW attitude", then perhaps the entire three pages of posts after the "setting things straight" thread should be removed; and also the posts above mine of "can I have your stuff"?. Maybe we need a "I'm never coming back!" thread so people can complain to their hearts content, and we can decide whether or not be can be bothered to read the rant.

With all due respect, the people who posted "can I have your stuff?" know Kumu well, and were more than likely kidding seeing as how Kumu gave up most all of his stuff when he left.

You, however, weren't kidding in the slightest and were doing the exact same thing that you do in dragon chat. Puffing your chest out and trying to act "holier than thou".

Those types of things are best left on the WoW forums. They will garner you no respect here. As for the other post you're talking about, I haven't read it. No one forced you to read this one.


And now that I'm through with the derailing this thread has gone through, to Kumu, I do hope you reconsider.

*cricket cricket*

[Velea]

I know XiaoChanLung and Velea disagree with us on whether people will get angry.

gopher, please don't speak for me or my opinions. When I wish to express them, I will.

Thanks

[XiaoChanLung]

(Edited to bring the issue to the people privately, anyone else who wants a go, you know where PM is)

[Roguar]

What is funny is that he is back more than what he has said, Kumu is Kumu no changing him here or in game. I find it sad that the elders are focused on things that do not affect the game ( Mith tool?). I do not like anyone changing anything i say or do, but if i make it public then it becomes a public debate if it is "right or wrong". As long as that happens someone will be on the short end of that debate.

WB Kumu, I will see you when i return

[gopher65]

Of course there will be people who will say anything, regardless of whether it is true or not. That isn't a justification to avoid detailed rulesets. Selective enforcement and moderator whims are easy to deal with with a good, detailed ruleset, because you have rules for staff conduct as well as player conduct.

You know, I suppose that's a good way of saying it.

I want rules that the MODERATORS have to follow. So that when they do something silly (and they will, it is simply human nature. No one is totally non-biased), I can say "heyheyhey, I was within the forum rules! Why am I getting picked on, when that other person isn't!"

Right now, one mod will mod my post "using their own judgement" and another mod will let Kumu's post go, "using their own judgement", even if the two posts were identical. There are no rules, so the mods can just do whatever they feel like.

You're in a bad mood? Delete my post cause it had a bad "tone". You're in a good mood? Leave my post because you're reading it from a different perspective. After all, your judgement is all that matters here.

[Kuan-Ti]

I personally do alot more reading here than posting. Im sure not many of you have seen me here much if at all.

I use the boards as a tool to help resolve issues that I may have or to read a quest write up.

The player written stories are quiet enjoyable.

My time is limited so I dont spend it ranting on nonsence or acknowledging
it but on the rarest of occasions. This being one of them.

If you have a need to express that your over moderated than maybe you shouldnt be posting it.

I've always thought the boards were a way to comunicate game issues and information not personal issues between posters and moderators.

I will always side with the moderator.

Im sorry your that upset over moderation I feel its needed I do have children that visit the boards to read. The cleaner and nicer they are the better.

Thank you for a fine job at moderating Horizons CS

I look farward to seeing the new rules. I for one see no need for a rush on them As Istaria needs her devs full attention.

[Kumu Honua]

Thank you for a fine job at moderating Horizons CS

I look farward to seeing the new rules. I for one see no need for a rush on them As Istaria needs her devs full attention.

They already posted the rules. They are insubstantial.

[Kala]

I am one of those people. I'm told by people I know that I'm a little bit... weird. I don't lie often, I'm blunt, and I'm not tactful at all. If you ask "do I look fat in this?" I will give you an honest answer, and I will truely not understand why you'd get mad at me if you didn't like the answer I gave. You asked a question, and I told The Truth as I saw it. What more could you ask for?

I pretty much go by: if I don't think I'll like the answer, I probably won't ask the question. If I ask "Do I look fat in this?" Well, to be honest, I pretty much expect the answer to be yes anyway. I expect honest answers. If I don't like the answer, well, yeah, I might be a little upset about it, but because I don't like the answer itself, not because someone told me the truth.

I also have a lot of trouble with the "hi, how are you" and the "nice day outside isn't it?" I don't run on telling people about my day and *why* I'm feeling how I feel, but if you ask me "How Are You", I'll tell you. "I'm feeling really depressed today, and I have an odd craving for mashed potatoes and roast beef, but I don't have any at home. That sucks doesn't it?" And then I'll walk away considering that a perfectly normal conversation. I'm told that it isn't.

Surprisingly, it isn't. At least, it seems that way to me. I fail at small talk, though I've gotten better within the past few years. Yet, it still tends to feel very awkward to me. I stopped going to office parties a while ago because of it.

I've gotten to the point though, when people ask me how I'm doing, that my automatic response is "I'm fine, how're you?" regardless of whether or not I am. With friends I can often downgrade it to "Eh, so-so" though even that could mean I'm feeling horribly depressed. It frustrates them to no end.

And roast beef and mashed potatoes sounds good right about now.

To be honest, I'd give those poor 3 guys a rest and let them focus on reviving the game before going anal on the lack of detailed sub-rules on how to type here.

I'm not asking for them to be revised now. I just think it needs to be done eventually.

[Kumu Honua]

What is funny is that he is back more than what he has said, Kumu is Kumu no changing him here or in game. I find it sad that the elders are focused on things that do not affect the game ( Mith tool?). I do not like anyone changing anything i say or do, but if i make it public then it becomes a public debate if it is "right or wrong". As long as that happens someone will be on the short end of that debate.

WB Kumu, I will see you when i return

I am focused on something that affects the game. Billing. That's where my comment was made, that's where it was edited, that's where this started.

I didn't say I was leaving. Just that I was not going to return to Horizons as a paying customer. It's apparent to me that lessons of the past have not been learned.

In fact, they have taken a step backwards now. Now the rules are insubstantial at best.

[gopher65]

How is it that this post falls under "Discussions not related to Horizons." It may be a rant, but it is HZ related. Since there is no rants forum, it was in fact under the correct sub-forum, which was general.

I'd say the very fact that some illogical ninny who doesn't understand forum structure moved this post proves our point.

[Menkure]

It was the consensus of the moderators that the thread was getting out of hand, and was not adding anything positive to the forums.

Instead of locking or deleting the thread, it was moved to the off-topic forums. Discussion can continue... and in fact I encourage discussion. We are taking into account peoples' feelings and opinions regarding moderation, and we'll be working on new forum rules and new moderation policies that will hopefully be both helpful, easy, and beneficial to both posters and moderators.


In regards to the forum rules posted earlier.. We developed those guidelines, by taking into account not only past moderation practices, but also by examining and looking at other MMO forum rules in a subjective manner. As an example, the rules and guidelines which we posted are actually far more detailed then say, the LOTR forums (which has no specific rules and guidelines publicly posted), but are far more lax and easier than say the WoW forum rules.

The rules were specifically written (on purpose) in order to give the impression that "The community here is made up of adults, and there really shouldn't be a need for rules at all. However just to be clear, here are the expectations for posting on these forums."

We really wanted to avoid a longer list of rules, like what WoW has ( link: here), because it was way too long and in far too much detail. Why is that a bad thing? Well, basically, if it is too long and in too much detail, then no one is going to read through all of them , unless they are trying to "lawyer" their way into posting something they shouldn't be.

As has been pointed out by the people posting here, it is apparent that more strict rules and guidelines are necessary and in order. As such, new rules and guidelines are (again *sigh*) in the works.

If anyone still wants, I'll leave this thread up for discussion PROVIDED THERE ARE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS.

Please also note that statements such as "some illogical ninny who doesn't understand forum structure moved this post proves our point." can be interpreted as mod baiting and a personal attack to those who are volunteering their free time to make these forums a safe haven for discussion for the players of Horizons. Because of this, such statements are, on the grounds of simple respect, totally uncalled for, and will be taken care of in an appropriate manner.

-Menkure

[Deth]

I would have a request on the modding practices while you guys are talking of the rules. Please do as done on the Vault site, if able I assume you as a mod can change other peoples post, Do that Mod out just the parts that break the rules and Highlight things that are on the boarder or get close so that people can learn what is right and wrong like Pokuto does. He has one of the best modding styles I have seen around. He shows the people over there what they are doing wrong and tries to leave most of a post up when he can.