With a view to ending the conflict...

[Aamer Khan]

On Chaos, there is much discussion about "exploiters" and Novians.

I will not be pointing fingers at ANYONE in this post, so please try and resist any urge to take personal offense.

What I would like to discuss and come to understand better, are these two issues and how they affect the gameplay for everyone.

Exploiting: Using "flaws" in game mechanics to gain unanticipated advantage over those that don't use these flaws.

Specifically, discussions revolve around being able to login to the game and as long as you don't move, you are invisible to all mobs. This allows a healer to stand untouched in the midst of mobs, while healing others fighting.

My understanding is that the intent of this mechanic, was to allow players who had lost connection to the server, to re-login without getting killed due to getting dropped. Nobody believes that it was intended that players use it to hog spawns or camp boss mobs.

So, the question here is how can this be modified to still keep it's intended purpose, while not allow players to exploit it for unfair advantage?

My suggestion here is to add a timer of 20 seconds to this "invulnerability". After the timer expires, all players will be visible to mobs and able to be aggroed by mobs.

What are your ideas?

The use of Novians: Resources reclaimed by plot owners when they tear down structures.

The current system does not allow transfer of novians nor their sale to other players. Some have gotten around this by taking ownership of a plot from a player, using novians from previous deconstruction to build structures, then selling it back to the player, who in turn, pays the novian builder coin.

I high degree of trust has to take place to make this method work. But as long as all parties are willing, this can be done under the current system. I know that novians were originally intended to be a way players could recover resources from structures, to allow them to move to a new plot, without losing all their hard work. I again don't believe anyone believes that the intent was to allow players to profit from novians.

My suggestion for this issue is to not only attune the novians to the player, but also limit the number of times in a player can sell and then purchase a new plot to once a week. This in no way prevents them from "selling" novians to other players as outlined above, nor does it keep a player from using their property as they see fit, but it does hinder the only bad part for all this... namely profiting from novians.

But Again, what are your ideas?

I only offer these suggestions as a way to show that there may be way to solve these issues without all the drama.

[RuneDragoon]

These seem to be reasonable, I think.

[Spartikus]

How in the hell is diassasembling items on a plot an exploit of the game mechanics? Items on a plot are there for everyone to see. If you want that plot to keep the items then buy it.. If you dont buy it the next person that comes along with the correct ammount of money and buys it has every right to do what they want with it.

[LaughingOtter]

My suggestion for this issue is to not only attune the novians to the player, but also limit the number of times in a player can sell and then purchase a new plot to once a week.

Such a rule would have, on several occasions I know of, resulted in the loss of valuable plots entirely due to players leaving the game. It's a rule that imposes an unreasonable inconvenience on the entire population and does nothing to prevent Novian harvesting in the slightest.

[Steelclaw]

My suggestion here is to add a timer of 20 seconds to this "invulnerability". After the timer expires, all players will be visible to mobs and able to be aggroed by mobs.

What are your ideas?

20 seconds is a bit short for some, and a bit long for others. If you want to get an idea of what I mean, turn on your music, turn off your loading screen, and relog. Notice your character comes up and is playable LONG before the loading music goes away. Those who play with the loading screen on need more than 20 seconds.

I suggest removing invisibility the moment the character performs an action (sends chat, uses a spell or ability, equips an item...) or after 10 minutes, whichever comes first. If your computer is so slow that it takes 10 minutes to complete loading after your character pops up in the world, you'll probably wind up dead anyway.

I know that novians were originally intended to be a way players could recover resources from structures, to allow them to move to a new plot, without losing all their hard work. I again don't believe anyone believes that the intent was to allow players to profit from novians.

That may indeed be the case, though it is apparent that novians are being sold in the manner you describe. Unintended use should not be sufficient grounds to rule a practice improper. You must consider the impact of the practice within the context of the present, not the past, or some ideal 'way it is supposed to be'. Otherwise, you can end up doing more damage than simply letting things be.

In this case, I don't see anything wrong with the practice of selling novians. At some point, somebody went through the trouble to make the original structure. It's player work. If the plot owner has no need for those novians, I don't see the problem with keeping them in the game instead of outright deleting them.

Now, there are people who buy plots and raze them for the novians to sell, to use for themselves, or just to be malicious. That is a little different. The novians still stay in the game, though there is a side-effect of losing the usefulness of the plot -- at least in the short term. I suggest the discussion be focused on this practice instead -- whether or not it is acceptable, and if not, how to deter or slow it while minimizing the impact on those who don't engage in such activity. It cannot be absolutely prevented. It's a question of how much damage each control approach will cause as compared to just leaving things as is.

Slightly unrelated: Is it possible for someone to hold a plot for ransom by buying the plot (possibly without enough plot slots in their account) and then putting it up for sale for $OMGWTFBBQ coin (and cancelling the a sub, if it was needed to get the plot)?

[Landowyn]

I can't believe this is coming up again just a week after another thread wore out the subject. If a plot is marked for sale, then it is for sale to whomever wants it. If the shop on it is valuable to YOU personally, then buy it yourself and quit trying to legislate against people's freedoms to play the game the way they want.

When I decon something it's usually to replace it with a higher level structure, so the novians are only partially useful (I'd rather have the raw materials, in fact, even at 80 percent). Rather than clog my own vault with novians, I "sell" the plot to one of my alts and have him decon it, where it winds up in his vault. He then sells the property back to me. This costs me a completely separate login.

Most of the time I end up giving these novians away, because I can't use the sandstone or cedar pieces.

Quit trying to tell people what to do with the virtual property they own.

[Aaelefein]

Landowyn, I don't see this as an attack against you, or someone who legitimately buys and uses said novians, and or gives away the ones they can't use.

I remember by first auction here, when I was fortunate enough to have the winning bid on the Wolf's Paw plot I currently own and held by one of my alts. Within 24 hrs, nearly every plot that wasn't bid on was completely stripped of structures and sold back to the community. I haven;t done a cost analysis of each structure, but I can certainly tell you this...

These people in my opinion, that ravage and pillage the plots for novians, are paying coppers on the gold, even when you take into consideration, the 5% "loss" when buying the plot and selling it back to the community.

Take for instance a simple Journeyman Shop...the silk work alone is about 1 gold value and over 500s if sold directly to a PB. It would take a 10g plot to come to that value...and we all know a Jman shop would cost several times that.

Where I, and I am sure most people see the problem...this novian raid of unsold plots...is people literally getting in tens, if not hundreds Gold value of resources, for almost no cost and less effort.

What is even sadder...how much of it goes to waste? Do they keep pillaging to get enough higher tier resources, and possibly, most likely, trashing hundreds if not thousands of units of first and second tier resources?

With only 1 gold starting funds, a person could buy 21 - 500s plots. End with 475s and possibly several hundred gold pieces worth of novian resources. That, in my opinion, is nothing short of laziness and thievery.

Another way to look at this issue...all those plots razed for novians...there is that much less work available. Why hire another player to do some work when you can get by oh-so-cheap.

Some have said...well if you want the plot so much...but it yourself. Sound advice...except I'm not looking at getting it to fit my needs, I have a couple very nice plots and am working to improve them. What I would like to do is save some very key plots that are important to more than just me, but the community as a whole. There is nothing to say that the next person is going to be so noble, or even set it up so it helps the community.

Some people already know my plans...I am willing to buy two more subs just to save a couple very key plots. Permissions will stay as they are, no shops will be removed, and when time permits, unfinished structures will be completed. I'm certainly not doing it because I need more land or work, but because I truly believe these plots have significant importance to the community and would hate for them to be razed, or put off-limits to the community.

Aaelefein

PS: As to fixing the problem? I honestly haven't a very good idea, at least not one that potentially doesn't cause more problems or hardships; and I certainly don't know the programming involved in the reclaimation process.

The only thing I can come up with...if a plot isn't sold during the auction, then it is razed of structures before going up for general sale. If there are to be any novians from this razing, they go into the previous owners vault for use should they decide to return, along with the value of the property into their pocket, less the 5% fee.

[Salis]

Just make it so that you buy the plot with structures or without.
With structures you pay them aswell: So that could become easily 50 Gold or more for nicely built up plots.
In that way you paid for the work done to the plot, and you are indeed completely free to raze it if you want. You have done your part to obtain the money, be it done as service for the community or not. But people won't hold a grudge for getting your novians cheap.

Salis

[LaughingOtter]

You do pay for the structures if you're making a competitive bid at auction. The level of interest a plot generates has a very real impact on how much you pay for those structures.

[Justa Mirage]

Aaelefein, you brought a happy tear to my eye

I see nothing wrong with Aamer's post, but a few people take it way too personally (me included)

No one is telling you what you can do with YOUR property once you buy it, I am in full compliance with that.

The point people are missing are those players that AREN'T going to do ANYTHING with the property except strip it and move on. They never wanted to "Own" the property or "Do" anything with it, only remove the resources and move on to the next plot / lair.

I see your point Lan, about being able to sell to your Alt. so your vault doesn't get jammed full of novians, and I see how that is an advantage. But unfortunately you are like 5% of the good folk who use the game as intended using the "sell to an alt, then sell it back" technique.

the other 95% after the auction will be in a race to see if they can be the first to buy, remove, sell back, repeat the unsold plots that have structures on them. You know there will be a LOT of them, especially around wolf's paw, Last Stand, Old Oaks, and Mithril's anvil. I know a few players that won't be back that have fully built up properties. But like Aaelefein said, preservation of the structures means buying entire accounts to save them, because you know 110% that if it goes for sale after the auction is over, it will be razed.

I think Aamer is asking us what can we do to handcuff those that have no intent on community planning and are out for themselves to see how many novians they can ram into their vault storage. And for that "500sp - 3gp" investment, sell novian built structures for many many gold, without lifting a working finger for the hours it would take to make a structure.

As for the inviso bug, did you know that emotes won't work unless you move and become visible! Try it

The inviso bug can easily be fixed as described in this thread, either after a set timer, or until the character performs an action. Being invisible forever is a bad exploitable thing, but if we had a rogue class, proves that "stealth" can be done

[gopher65]

I suggest removing invisibility the moment the character performs an action (sends chat, uses a spell or ability, equips an item...) or after 10 minutes, whichever comes first. If your computer is so slow that it takes 10 minutes to complete loading after your character pops up in the world, you'll probably wind up dead anyway.

A simple and elegant solution that is used by other games.

EVE for instance also has this "invisible and invulnerable while loading/teleporting" feature. And it is a good thing to have. But, as you say, it is limited. There is a (I believe) 1 minute timer in that game, and also a 'cancel on perform action' bit as well.

It works really well. It prevents exploiting, and it prevents needless deaths.

[Landowyn]

It is their right to "strip it and move on." It's called free enterprise. Once you eliminate any part of free enterprise you become a totalitarian state. Some will use the novians to build (what other value *do* they have?) for themselves, some for fast structures for others.

Perhaps returning them to their native state (oak board, silk spools, etc.) would do more to help builders because then, at least, you would have to hire a builder to get it done. Then, of course, you would be rewarding them with experience for rebuilding.

[gopher65]

For the "there won't be enough work for builders if everyone grabs novians!" argument, I have 3 gold worth of tier 1 resources on my plot right now, and I've found 1 person (one!) who was willing to do any work on it (between 1 and 2 silver per unit applied for things a level 1 player could do).

From what I can see all of the builders have so much coin that they won't build for *just* coin. Coin is worthless to them. If they happen to be leveling a class up, and you offer to pay them for the waste resources they are producing while they level, they will do some work on your plot. But if it is a tier below their current level? Forget it. Good luck finding someone to work on your plot.

[Landowyn]

I do Tier 4 and some Tier 5 right now, but if I were on your shard (assuming you are on Chaos) I would do the work. It's what I do. Problem is, there is really to way to tell when people have work available other than hearing about it in Marketplace. Maybe a red flag on the property or something would be nice, or a special consigner that listed work job with payment. Three gold is three gold! Sign me up.

[Aamer Khan]

Exactly C'gan.

As to the Novian "issue"...

If this game turns around like we all hope, and we start getting many new players, construction and plots will become an oft discussed issue.

We are at a turning point in HZ's history. Now is the time to see what can be done, to lower the number of annoyances and increase the FUN!

A HUGE part of why many play here is the ability to build permanent structures and leave a lasting mark on the world. Old timers got to rebuild many bridges and shops and the community spirit during those times, that the newer players have not. It is easy to understand how a player would be disturbed by a vault in their community going *poof* just so a player or guild could get more coin. Such activity, while totally allowed under the current mechanics, are certainly NOT what was intended.

Again, I would love for us all to put away defenses of any side and propose solutions that work within the intent of the mechanic that exist. This is going to be a very hard thing to do. But a simple question can lead the way...

Do we believe that the intent of the implemented mechanics in Horizons were to allow us all, to selfishly gain unbalanced/unfair advantage over others, or just the opposite?

[Arietna]

For the "there won't be enough work for builders if everyone grabs novians!" argument, I have 3 gold worth of tier 1 resources on my plot right now, and I've found 1 person (one!) who was willing to do any work on it (between 1 and 2 silver per unit applied for things a level 1 player could do).

oh oh oh ... please tell me you're on Chaos??? and the location of your plot??

[C`gan]

Exactly C'gan.

??? To this point I haven't posted in this thread. What are you agreeing with me on and why here?

[gopher65]

oh oh oh ... please tell me you're on Chaos??? and the location of your plot??

Chaos
Aiya
29193, 29072
Under the name of "CeLana"

I mentioned it in market and then in HoP chat, and was told to go to the Construction chat. I went there and Raisty started working on my plot. A couple days later someone else came in with 300 silver of tier1/2 plot work and no one even seemed to respond.

I understand that they many not need the coin, or may be interested in other things than construction at the moment, but I was just surprised that with all the talk (whining) about the "lack of paid construction work!" people were uninterested in work when it popped up.

Maybe it would be better to advertise on the forums? Ingame there really isn't any sure way to ensure that the people who want the work know it is available.

It would be nice if there were a "construction Notice Board" ingame that we could check. Maybe in Bristugo. It would have to be complicated. More like a server side notepad that would delete a message after 3 days (so that too many don't pop up).

EDIT: I'm not saying everyone should have jumped up and ran to my plot with their Masonry Trowel in hand. It's just that the "mehhh" response to offered construction jobs has caught me off-guard.

EDIT2: I've also been looking on the bristugo connie by the portals for blocks and timbers and sheeting, but sadly I've only found a load of what I needed once.

[Spartikus]

Aamer, how is you dictating as to what others can or can not do with a plot THEY own somehow increasing the "fun" factor of Horizons? The problem I have with your point is that it is all about you. YOU dont like people buying a plot for Novians so YOU think that it should be dictated they can not buy a plot and "strip" it. Somehow that increases their fun?

If you want a shop or equipment near a certain place, buy it, build it and have fun. If you want a real effective counter argument to this whole nonsense, I think people who use equipment/silos etc on plots long vacant are "exploiting". Those plots arent owned by them.. The person who created the equipment has been long gone.. I think all plot structures should have "maintenance" associated with them much like SWG. Then over time stuff degrades and becomes useless. Then if a community needs some machinery in an certain area they will buy a plot, build it and maintain it..

That sounds way more realistic IMO. Dictating to other players how they can spend their resources sounds facist to me.

[Hasai]

....It would be nice if there were a "construction Notice Board" ingame that we could check....

I myself would very much like this. For some reason, buyers and sellers of construction services have a hard time hooking-up in this game.