With a view to ending the conflict...

[agak]

the issue with buying plots and obtaining novians and making a supposide profit realy is not a concern.

the purpose of the novians is so that a person that owns a plot can deconstruct and perhaps build something else on the plot or obtain 80% of the resources and then use the novians at a future plot.

if one buys a plot and obtains novians the novians were paid for when the person bought the plot.

as far as a person making a profit from selling the novians this takes two people to participate. the holder of the novians has to take ownership of the plot place the novians then return the plot to the owner that contracted the novian supplier. the person that owned the plot prior to the novian placement would be the one paying for the novians to be added and as such would be paying for a service of delivery of the novians. this does not any any interfere with anothers game play and while the novian holder may potentialy make money from placing novians -- they can not make the money unless another is willing to trust them and pay for the dilivery of the novians.

simply if people dont pay for the novian placement service then the only thing they can use novians on is plots they own and hence not make a "huge" profit. if someone is willing to trust and pay for novian placement that is their choice -- you are at that point paying for a servie to the other player to deliver and place the novians.

[LaughingOtter]

Do we believe that the intent of the implemented mechanics in Horizons were to allow us all, to selfishly gain unbalanced/unfair advantage over others, or just the opposite?

That's a somewhat loaded question, Aamer.

The intent of the Novian mechanic was to make it easier for plot owners to remove, replace, or modify the structures on their plots. I'd say the mechanic is functioning as intended.

The mechanic is not the issue. The issue is that you're passing a subjective moral judgement on the intentions of another player and prohibiting that player from using the same mechanic as another player who's intentions you approve of. You can't do that.

Behaviors like AFK combat macroing, using invisible healers or macro scouts, levelling while AFK in a tree or otherwise out of harm's way, or modifying game files to keep yourself safe from attack are all things which can be and are prohibited as exploits. Behaviors can be addressed. Behaviors can be logged, reported, and punished. Not intentions.

There are a couple of plots in our guild which might be going up for auction. Let's assume they do, but but nobody bids on them and they go for general sale. Care to know what I'm going to do if that happens?

I can't afford to pay another three or four subscriptions indefinitly. I can afford $14.95 to have an extra plot slot for a month and I have a Novian mule. I will tear those plots down & strip them bare, because my guild built them and I won't hand that work over to somebody else if at all possible. Then, I'll hang on to them until there is a need within the guild for those Novians - one I deem acceptable.

Are my intentions acceptable or not?

Trick question. It doesn't matter. Would my behavior violate any of the rules of conduct or terms of service established by Virtrium? - that's what matters, and as of right now, the answer is no.

With all respect, old friend - and I mean that with great sincerity - Novian harvesting is something of a self-correcting problem. The community would be better served by taking action to document and report players engaged in the actual exploits such as those I mentioned earlier. Getting those exploiters - and their illegally gotten wealth - banned for their actions - now, that's a project which will improve the community.

[JDexter]

/agree with Klaus, well put.

[Justa Mirage]

Let's turn this into a RL word problem:

You have a community that has a 7-11 (convenience store) on one of the properties in your community. It is used by everyone in the community. Same with a bank, and possibly a Home Depot (a construction store).

Now for "example" sake.... you are able to uproot these stores, structure and all, and relocate them.

In the community with these stores (which are highly used) finds out that the properties these stores reside on, will be auctioned off. No one in the community has the ability to keep those properties from going to someone else. After the auction, the Home Depot, and the bank are bought, but the 7-11 store goes up for sale (no one bid on it).

The day it goes for sale, it is bought, and a construction crew comes and dismantles the 7-11 and hauls the building away. The next day there is a "century 21 for sale" sign on the empty property.

Is this OK? answer yes. They purchased the property so they can have a 7-11 elsewhere for "their" community.

Is it serving the community it resided in? answer NO: the community that liked having a convenience store now have to get someone to purchase the plot that WANTS to build a 7-11 there... if they build another bank, or Home Depot, it's their choice, but doesn't help the community in that region.

There is no winner in this age old argument. Who ever gets the property if it goes for sale (not auction... for sale) has the rights to the items on that plot. I am not going to go into ethics here, but removing usable buildings from a community and forcing them to "rebuild" something that didn't really need to be "rebuilt" wellllll.........

[LaughingOtter]

removing usable buildings from a community and forcing them to "rebuild" something that didn't really need to be "rebuilt" wellllll.........

It sucks. It's a PITA. It makes you want to pelt the person selling Novians in MP with rotten fruit and week-old roadkill. And when someone else buys that empty plot, you help them rebuild, because that's what a community does.

[Spartikus]

Now just a sec there Justa.. that was a totally unfair example you gave...

Let's put it into real perspective..

A 7-11 is used by the community... The owners of the 7-11 leave town but people still utilize the 7-11 or want the ability to run the 7-11.. The 7-11 is up for sale and anyone can buy it.

If a person wants to help the community they can buy it and re-open the store.. However... the new owner of the 7-11 has just as much rights to bulldoze it to the ground and make a parking lot. It's his money. He he can get a better return on his investment by stripping the store and bulldozing it thats his right.

I'm not saying the overall community would benefit.. I'm saying he pays his $15 a month and can do whatever he likes within the ToS. Anyone that starts to dictate what he does with his new plot to him might want to concider a move to mother russia and see true communism at work and see how that worked out for them.

[Vermithraxx]

On Chaos, there is much discussion about "exploiters" and Novians.

Exploiting: Using "flaws" in game mechanics to gain unanticipated advantage over those that don't use these flaws.

So if everybody uses the mechanics, it's all good? Or is this a question of player morality and how they play their game?

My understanding is that the intent of this mechanic, was to allow players who had lost connection to the server, to re-login without getting killed due to getting dropped. Nobody believes that it was intended that players use it to hog spawns or camp boss mobs.

Can we get confirmation from a Dev on this?

The Evolution Engine was an experiment in server-side heavy architecture (that failed, imho, back in 2004). It's shown it can't keep up with heavy user use. (EQ2 and Wow, by comparison, make the client program, on the user's end, do 10x more work to keep up.)

Key thing: You are invisible until YOUR client sends a motion packet to the server and the server distributes that data to all clients considered in the area.

We know the packet distribution architecture is... limited. (Ever notice how your groupmates jump around, specially when everybody is trying to get from point A to point B?).

Due to the extreme slowness of the architecture, I don't think trying to put a timeout would work... especially if the packet that needs distributed never existed in the first place.

Possible solution: Have the packet update when a players does an action. Specifically, I'm thinking 1.) Casts a spell and 2.) Performs a melee action.
Possible problems: Will this create even more lag and updates issues on an already overloaded server?

The use of Novians: Resources reclaimed by plot owners when they tear down structures.

I high degree of trust has to take place to make this method work.

Voila. The only limiting factor ever needed has been built into the game. So long as players involved trust each other, no reason why the devs should drop the important work they're doing just to babysit what some people think isn't right.

[gopher65]

That's kind of a funny example, cause that actually happened to my local grocery store. A chain bought it (walmart or supestore or someone), and then closed it down and bulldozed the building. (They wanted to force people to drive to their big supercenters instead of using local grocery stores. Guess what, it worked:P)

There are now no grocery stores within 3 KM of me, and I don't have a car. Such things happen, both in real life and in games.

Such is life.

[Landowyn]

Same here, sorta. They bulldozed the convenience store on the corner (which was really convenient) and put in a ROAD. Now I have to go to a convenience store that's not as convenient. Free enterprise.

[Aamer Khan]

It IS interesting how threads like this go.

I have not said if a practice is either moral or immoral.
I have pointed no fingers at anyone.
and the thought provoking question I asked was just that, to provoke thinging about the stated issues. Which some have done, and others have chosen to view as personal attacks.

I also, have not tied to tell anyone what they personally should do. I have made suggestions to the DEVS in the hopes of getting a dialog going.

BUT...

If all we can do as players is not agree to disagree, then I will rest my attempts on this thread, and hope that the developers will still our fears with a change in mechanics or a directly stated policy on what THEY feel is intended or allowed.

So, thanks everyone for your feedback, and see you in game.

[Justa Mirage]

Now just a sec there Justa.. that was a totally unfair example you gave...

Let's put it into real perspective..

A 7-11 is used by the community... The owners of the 7-11 leave town but people still utilize the 7-11 or want the ability to run the 7-11.. The 7-11 is up for sale and anyone can buy it.

If a person wants to help the community they can buy it and re-open the store.. However... the new owner of the 7-11 has just as much rights to bulldoze it to the ground and make a parking lot. It's his money. He he can get a better return on his investment by stripping the store and bulldozing it thats his right.

I'm not saying the overall community would benefit.. I'm saying he pays his $15 a month and can do whatever he likes within the ToS. Anyone that starts to dictate what he does with his new plot to him might want to concider a move to mother russia and see true communism at work and see how that worked out for them.

You are missing the total picture here: I never condoned deconstruction, it is your land. What I condone is those who come in, buy the land not because there was a 7-11 on it and want to put what "they" want... I condone those who will buy the land, remove the assets, and then put a for-sale the next minute, moving on to the next "plot for sale" They are not out for the community (well... maybe their "own" community) by trashing others. They are also not out to "make a community better" by reorganizing the plot and replacing usable machines. They are purchasing and deconstructing for one purpose... because they can, there is nothing stopping them, and it's the easiest way to get insta-buildings on their property without hard work, and the game system allows them to do it.

Gamewise, yes you can do the above mentioned, but you are not doing it to "better the community" only to "spur the community's wrath" at those who do this. Sure there will be a lot of rebuilding... whilst people cuss under their breath having this done to them.

Again you all seem to miss the point:

It will happen
It will happen to some unlucky community with buildings players use
It will happen faster than you can say "Patch day"
and of course the losers will be those who depended on those machines with no hope save a "community" of builders (which right now is pretty slim) to repopulate the plot with the missing machines... assuming the new owner wants those particular machines built there.

My "rant" is only to those that don't care... all they want is Novians for their own personal gain and to heck with the "wonderful community".

[JDexter]

So if they state that the current game mechanics are what is intended, then you'd be okay with that?

[Landowyn]

Justa, you don't speak for me, so you don't speak for the community. You speak for yourself and your own self interests.

[Spartikus]

I guess what I dont get Justa is how someone buying a plot for it's novians is bad?

Like I said it's just as easy for someone who wants the plot for it's machinery to buy it as it is for someone novian harvesting. I don't condone it (condone means agree with btw I think it was misused in your post or maybe I misread heh) but I dont have any right to stop someone from buying a plot for novians..

Now that said, I think a more fair solution would be to make a plots selling price reflect the novians on that plot... I think that might slow down the novian harvesting. I'm surprised the building community would be upset by this BTW. You'd think they'd be happy for the work

Anyways 2 points of view, 2 ways of looking at it. Would it suck if someone deconned a bunch of machines next to my plot? Yes.. DO I have any right at all to whine about it? nope If it was that important to me I should built my own or bought the plot.

[Justa Mirage]

Ok let's turn the tables:

Why should those that agree novian farming "should" be allowed?

Again, I have no interest in this other than what happened to me when the "
buildings to novians" thing went live.

I did want to "move into" the neighboring plot

I did want to "preserve" the building structures

I did want to "purchase" it for the intent of keeping usable machines in the community

I, however, did not get this opportunity "as you all keep saying" if you want to keep the machines and structures... purchase it... I was never given the opportunity.

I think what I am trying to say, is give those that REALLY REALLY do want to "preserve" their community's machines a chance to purchase the plots they want before allowing those who want the novians.

The auction is a good thing, but if you do the math:

Just about all the players left either own a plot or lair
Not many have an open account to purchase another
If they do, it's probably for Alt transferring of property (like you Lan) for purposes of novian storage.

So, when the auction comes, there are going to be a few plots out there (due to lack of people having open plot/lair purchase power) will slip through the system and end up with no bids on them. (only a few)

My word to those reading this thread.... start removing any guild stored stuff in plots that are open to your guild but the player has moved on, just a smart thing to do. Make plans to see if someone in the guild can re-purchase the property to keep the work your guild did, in the guild.

I have nothing to gain, either way, I just wish there was a "gentleman's agreement" between the players to let a week pass "after auctions" to let the dust settle and let those who are trying to keep / preserve the plot structures time to get the plot purchased.... then "let the farmers roam free" and remove what's left after everyone gets what they want.

I am not moving I like where I live.

peace.

[Creme]

Honestly, if there's going to be so much conflict and judgement over what someone chooses to do with their property once they've bought it, and it's game mechanics after all, then just have everything turn into novians in the previous owner's vault.

It's there work after all, so why not just give them the novians and then no one can complain about anyone else's behaviour.

[LexDivinia]

I do believe that the whole debate over "novian farming" is a moral one, based on what different players feel is the "right way" to handle the plot reclamations.

The entire dialogue when broken down comes to whether or not someone "should" or "should not" farm novians. There is nothing that says I can't demolish an entire plot and then go on Marketplace and sell them. People may not like it. But it is not breaking rules.

It's like swearing. Where does it say I can't curse? I can curse on the street, I can curse in the grocery store. I may upset people and be asked to stop because they don't like it, but no action can be taken against me (unless of course I am doing this to the detriment of a particular person, i.e. harassment.) But... I can't curse here in the forums. Why? Cause there is a clearly stated rule that says I can't and it is enforced.

There is not a rule that says I can't farm novians. And until there is, I think this entire debate needs to be dropped.

The devs are well aware of the divided community. Some want to farm, some say it is wrong. Personally, I believe the devs have not commented on this because the devs probably think it is petty compared to a lot of other things and we all know they have a lot more to worry about than freaking novians.

[Silverblaze]

I dont care abotu novians in the least.

Invis on login...I say as soon as you move, cast, type and hit enter, execute a macro, breath wrong or what have you you become vis.

You got poepl in the house who like to move their parents/brother/firends toon, thats "your problem". Simple solution. Unless i am not seeing something. Like if it cant be set to cease once one or all of those occur.

[velveeta]

It is their right to "strip it and move on." It's called free enterprise. Once you eliminate any part of free enterprise you become a totalitarian state. Some will use the novians to build (what other value *do* they have?) for themselves, some for fast structures for others.

Perhaps returning them to their native state (oak board, silk spools, etc.) would do more to help builders because then, at least, you would have to hire a builder to get it done. Then, of course, you would be rewarding them with experience for rebuilding.

no, you didn't go there!!!!

[Oakleif]

RE: the exploiting topic.

Why not make any action start a 15 second timer until invisibility ends? For reference, recall takes 5 seconds. Then you might get in a free heal or two before becoming visible (useful for healing yourself if you were damaged before going linkdead in order to make a run for it) but couldn't use the tactic to heal all through a combat as an exploit.