Developer Discussion: Big Changes in Delta 120

[Velea]

I'm going to ask that if you want to continue talking about Lunus/Helian, or have suggestions for one faction or the other, please start a thread either under suggestions or on the dragon forum. Let's try to keep this thread on track for the developers who are trying to follow it and get the information they need for this delta.

Thanks

[CallakDW]

I'm going to admit right now that I didn't have time to go through everyone's posts before writing this, but I think that the spell timer is going to make things a bit more difficult for helian dragons when many people think that helians (or spellcasting dragons) are allready difficult to play. I honestly can't confirm that feeling because I have allways played a helian caster and only recently started a young lunus. I've allways thought that lunus were best at taking down large heavy bosses while helians were good at croud controll with their array of powerful aoe spells while holding agro. At least this is how I've felt about myself. Without actually experiencing it, I have a bad feeling about this change, but won't really call for a rollback untill I try it out.

[Nayuaka]

Uh I'm gonna have to step in and say to the above poster that helians and lunus get the exact same abilities save the different breaths. Both factions are capible of melee or magic. Sorry that's just a pet peeve of mine that people think that lunus are better at melee and helian are better at magic just because of their faction when in reality all dragons are pretty much exactly the same skill wise. Or can be anyway.

[CallakDW]

Both factions are capable of it yes, but there are some enhansment to one or the other depending on what faction you take. To what degree these enhansments benifit, I'm not entirely sure of.

[Tarran of Chaos]

I love all those changes. For me there's nothing bad in there since I only ever used only the teir of spells I was in and never used the multi teirs way. Heck up until a bit ago I didn't even know you COULD use the t5 version and then the t4 version and so on. I say that this change should have come a long time ago as each teirs is an upgrade....it's not supposed to be a separate spell. Just an upgrade of that spell...so it makes sense that they have the same timers.

PS. Before anyone grumps that I don't play casters and don't know anything my Dragon and the only character I play is caster specced and has been for years now.

This also deserves it's own paragraph. Yay for the lairshaping changes. The chambers were okay as they were but I won't complain about less work but for the corridors this is great...those are such a horrid pain to build.

You have 4 aoe dmg spells. Nature casters have 2. That is a huge difference with linked timers.

I didn't realize until last night how targeted this is at mystics. Now it's all coming back to me. I remember PJ's nature nerfs suggestions he made to TG.

[Steelclaw]

Well, I don't think the linked recycle timers are going to be removed.

I took several hours to investigate the effect of the linked timers on my character (dragon) configuration as well as other attacks. Using empirical data as support, I submitted some suggested changes that restore the usefulness of dragon AoE casting without making it overpowering.

Whether those suggestions are accepted or not is a different issue. However, I think that doing the legwork to get numbers, analyze them and work out reasonable modifications is more likely to generate a favorable result than complaining.

Try to think in terms relative to the character, class configuration, and reasonable expectation, rather than comparing one class to another (don't make it casters vs. bashers). And FFS, do not talk about parity between bipeds and dragons. They are essentially two different games.

[Vahrokh]

Whether those suggestions are accepted or not is a different issue. However, I think that doing the legwork to get numbers, analyze them and work out reasonable modifications is more likely to generate a favorable result than complaining.

Heh, it's the way it worked at my time, when I lived, 5 minutes in IRC (after you prepared a _reasoned_ talk with numbers) > 4 months flaming on the forums.

And FFS, do not talk about parity between bipeds and dragons. They are essentially two different games.

As I posted in the past, the game will be healthy again when the stupid "Dragons vs Bipeds" threads will come back...

[Nayuaka]

Both factions are capable of it yes, but there are some enhansment to one or the other depending on what faction you take. To what degree these enhansments benifit, I'm not entirely sure of.

The entire extent of the differences are that lunus get at RoP +20 TnC, Lightning Breath, and a bit to fire resistance. Helians at RoP get +20 Primal, Ice Breath, and a bit to spirit and ice resistance. At ancient Helians get a more caster orientated crystal and lunus get a more melee orientated crystal. Those are basically the differences so that's what I ment by they are minimal at best. The ancient crystals are not THAT groundbreaking...nice yes but nowhere near essential to be a good caster/melee dragon.

[Vahrokh]

*Knock knock*

Forum moderator:

I'm going to ask that if you want to continue talking about Lunus/Helian, or have suggestions for one faction or the other, please start a thread either under suggestions or on the dragon forum

Just quoting it again in case you missed it.

[mage]

The spell timer fix is but one of many fixes and adjustments that are needed and necessary for class balancing. I'm pretty sure the devs have a good understanding that this change will in turn throw a whole bunch of other things out of whack.

As an example, many mobs were strengthened after the merger because many adventure classes were way too powerful. The non-existent spell timers added to this, as it was one thing that gave many people that multiclassed the ability to take on huge groups of mobs easily and without too much risk (Remember Elnath?). As a result, the devs strengthened many mobs in order to make it harder.

Obviously, those prior changes will have to be re-evaluated.. in fact, EVERYTHING is going to have to be re-evaluated... and I'm pretty sure that the developers know and understand this

-Menkure

I agree with the spell timer changes 100% and certainly hope that what Menkure portends will come to pass. While there are some few who have multiclassed several or more classes to 100, I would wager that the vast majority of players have not. Certainly the difficulty of the world encounters needs to be readjusted to accomodate the majority of the player base and I am glad to see that the devs are working toward this goal.

[Nalrach]

When I read ... patch delta 120 applied to Bligth and saw in the patch log ""Relstaroth, the Master Lairshaper, has decreed after extensive testing, that Lairshapers throughout Istaria can now construct corridors and chambers with fewer resources than before and still be assured that their lairs will be safe from collapse.""

I decided that I would give the game annoter try, finally we getting some devs that listen to the player base.

Question: Let's say they reduce the resource cost of a structure you have already built. Will I be able to deconstruct it and get 80% of the novians back from the original construction cost? or will I get 80% of the new construction requirements?

Well that be nice, you could get some forms of return on your investment and benifit from the new reduce amount required. The only question is the reduction is more then 20% you get in deconstructing.

Before people scream "games hack", his suggestion can benifit the one that can rebuild and redo their lair layout only. A better solution to fairness for the one that have completed their construction in the past, would be to run a type of batch against lair and give a "credit" of novian to people that have completed work.

Altough I return now I would not apply anything on my lair until delta makes it to the main server.

Question: are Tricuts going to 1:1:1 this patch? huh huh huh?

This .. definitively need to be consider, tricut are a MAJOR grind and a drag to do.

[Soars]

What is the purpose of changing the spells? What is to be gained by this? There are other things like end game content that should be focused on to keep the players entertained instead of taking something away from them.

Why introduce something that will put more restrictions on us when we are trying to bring people back to the game, not make them dislike it even more. Why not spend the time on creating new end game content for us to keeo buisy with, or work on addressing the lag issues (Which I know for a fact is the cause of several of my friends leaving the game).

Casters are already afflicted with weaker armor, and less damage capabilities as well planned melee biped, especially when combined with a Boars Hide Mask. Not to say I am complaining about BHM's I love them! But come on, what biped can cast a spell on a mob and hit them with a crit for 18k damage? I don't know of any caster capable of doing that, but I certainly know some well multicalssed melee bipeds that can crit for 18k a hit.

The Mystics are especially going to be hit hard. Such as with nature spells, they are already on timers as it is and not like we don't have a plethora of Nature spells to to choose from. Basically only 4 lines that are very useful. Thundercloud, Lightning Storm, Thunder and Root spells.

I just don't see the point of taking things away from the player base at this point in time when we have already gone through so much crap with EI. I think we should be getting more good things added to the game instead of good things being taken away.

Yes it will require change of play style, but once again..what is to be gained by doing this? And do the benefits outweigh the negative effects. I don't know how other players will react, but unfortinitly I have already had to say goodbye to a very good friend of mine who has played for many years in Istaria. He stuck through the crap with EI and was delighted to hear new owners came. But this spell cutback was the straw that broke the camels back. He left the game because he won't be able play in the style he has grown accustomed to for so many years. *shrugs* after all that this game has gone through it is sad to see someone leave because of this =(.

If connecting some spells together through a common timer has some big positive side to it, by all means, someone please enlighten me to what it is. This is not to say that something like this shouldn't be re-evaluated at a later time. I guess I am mainly just seeing the negative effects instead of looking at the positive ones.

But for now, I just don't see the point in nerfing good things at the moment. One would think we would be only working on things to entice more players to the game instead of making some leave. *shrugs* Just my 2 cents on the matter.

[Vahrokh]

What is the purpose of changing the spells? What is to be gained by this? There are other things like end game content that should be focused on to keep the players entertained instead of taking something away from them.

The purpose is to standardize the ways combat and damage are done.
I'll bring you an example of a game that did not do this: World Of Warcraft.

They created quite a lot of classes (schools) each with some unique powerful abilities.
Even the races would get "racial skills" some of which were very powerful, or would be very powerful when confronted with some encounters or players in PvP.

Now, it's about 9 months they are DEVASTING and flipping upside down some of those schools because they proved to be too powerful in some situations.

Racial skills got nerfed, powerful abilities completely removed when playing "arena" (the competitive and supposedly balanced part of the game).

Crowd control spells, toned down thru the years from 40 seconds (varied with school) down to 10 seconds of today.

There's a lot of dissent nowadays, as each new patch brings new and heavy nerfs on abilities that were established since 2005 and endless threads on why did they wait for years to balance the game.
They made the endgame and now are changing the schools in their face, because they were too good or just broken for that endgame.

Do you want the same? That they make an end game and then start nerfing spells right and left till you want to pull your hairs?

As I posted in another thread, the developers are not out to get YOU, beat on you and hate you because of pure gnomish evil-ness.
They try making the game fair for everyone.

Once the holes and issues caused by this change will be documented, mobs will be toned down, old effects that were removed in the past, put back in, cooldowns revised.
This of course will take its time and be painful (it will be for us dragons too), but it's still better than be oblivious, keep everything stagnant and not make the game go ahead just because it's more comfortable like that.

I don't know of any caster capable of doing that, but I certainly know some well multicalssed melee bipeds that can crit for 18k a hit.

How many bipeds still in game have a boar mask? A minority. You look like you think balance = make everyone caster like those with an ancient item of the long gone past.
And if Boar Mask results to be too good, they'll nerf it (I think they did already in the past).

But for now, I just don't see the point in nerfing good things at the moment. One would think we would be only working on things to entice more players to the game instead of making some leave. *shrugs* Just my 2 cents on the matter.

The good things grew over a broken foundation. They are cutting regrown skin over an infection to purge it and restore health in the game.

[Xannriu]

Scout quest Prove Your Fighting Ability from Sadie in NT appears to be broken. The Power Shot ability never registers.

[velveeta]

i know i sound like a total noob, which i guess i kinda am, but what exactly is 'nerfed'?
from context it sounds like something that was discontinued or removed from play in the game?

ps- i have a boar's head mask, but it was a gift from ***, not something i looted or made....

[Soars]

Okay, that does provide me with alot more insight into the reasonings behind what is happening.

[Soars]

Nerfed means reducing the power of an ability. For example, say a warrior has a spell that stuns for 30 seconds and does 12k damage. When they nerf it, it will stun for less time like baybe 15 seconds and only do 8k damage.

[Vahrokh]

Nerf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerf_%28computer_gaming%29

[velveeta]

thanx, soars and vah....

wiki, of course, i should have thought of it myself!! that's alzheimer's for ya!!

[Trust]

My question is the heath and revitalize line. If I cast Major health 5, is that going to grey out Health 5 and Minor health 5? If I cast Imp revit 5, will that grey out Revit5?